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Mindless Murder

It's happening again as we receive another report of mindless murder (terrorist attack), this time in Lahore, Pakistan.
It does not matter how they are labeled - drive by, gang related, road rage, terrorist, drunken hunters, war - deliberate or stupidity, these mindless acts are all from the failure on the part of the perpetrators to recognize the value of human life on general and of each individual, themselves included.

Although law are necessary, laws and enforcement will never be enough to bring the senseless killings to an end.

How then can we even begin to address this plague, this scourge?

It is my perhaps somewhat ignorant opinion that there is only one effective way, That is the hard way. Heart to heart, mouth to mouth, ear to ear. We must change the mind set of not only the would be attackers, but of the communities and families they come from and are within.

We must start within and make sure our own house (mind) is clear. We must reach out to family, friends, stepping out to touch the hearts of strangers. Not with bluster, false "machismo", threats or condensation. Certainly not with insincerity.

We have many traditions within the participants of this site alone. While I have some ideas of my own on this, my purpose is to open the discussion, not give a lecture.

Please participate in this discussion as we can all learn more ways to better ourselves, our communities and our world.

One caveat - NO proselytizing.

Thank you

Peace to all

BunkslobsteryagrCinorjer

Comments

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    I'm afraid I have no clue had to deal with it unfortunately.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Terrorism is not the problem. Terrorism is a result of the problem.
    Just saw that in a meme about homelessness. It summarizes my long post in 2 sentences. Sigh. Brevity was not a gift I was given, lol.

    BunksDakini
  • We try ad that counts.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    With all the strife going on in the world, I'm reminded of this : " Good people do good things-Bad People do bad things-For Good People to do Bad things-That (more often than not) takes Religion"...

    In regards to the question:

    How then can we even begin to address this plague, this scourge?

    Two key words...."Toddler Taming" ....
    Get to the root of the problem...by cutting off terrorism's supply source....As for the terrorists in our midst, one can only hope that the charismatic members amongst them comes to their senses and change direction and in doing so, influence others to follow suit ...

    Worldwide we should also be focussing on preventative measures, intervention in schools, plus other places of education...

    "Prevention is better than cure"....

    "The most essential method which includes all other methods is to behold the mind-The mind is the root from which all things grow-If one can understand the mind-Everything else is included ! "
    ~BodhiDharma~

    And on a more cynical note : There's money to be made "on all sides" when terrorism is in play...Weapons, machinery, wheeling & dealing, money changing hands, some will get very rich off the blood of others..."Oh what a lovely war" ... on terror...

  • yagryagr Veteran

    Last evening, while discussing the public outrage over another terrorist attack with my wife, I asked her a question that I think has a place in the larger discussion. In what way could a small, weak, underfunded force attack a juggernaut that would be acceptable to society.

    Please don't misunderstand me, I am not recommending violence as a way forward - not at all. But, like @Lionduck implied, drive by, gang related, road rage, terrorist, drunken hunters, war - the root is the same. Abject helplessness and a lack of basic human needs being met saying 'enough'.

    I tend to try and make things personal in discussions like this because, well, I'm the only one that I can really speak for - but I'm not trying to make this about me, just to put a face on the problem as I see it. Most of you know that I am awaiting a disability hearing. There is no way on earth I should be denied but I have been twice - not at the hearing level, but nevertheless...it's been three years. I've been literally killing myself trying to keep a roof over our heads by demanding things from my body it can no longer do.

    While I unequivocally give my word that I will not do this, it has occurred to me that if, I am denied at the hearing level - to take a swan dive off the federal courthouse with denial in hand. Perhaps, I've thought, such an act might get enough press to cause a second look at the process - what they put people through, and perhaps help someone else. Again, I won't do it - but I've thought about it. I get the sense of desperation and hopelessness that can cause someone to consider taking a life - although in this case it is my own.

    So I think @karasti and @Dakini have hit the nail on the head. Offer hope.

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Wonderful offerings. I was thinking about apathy and how for example, the western world such as the United States - developed countries that are experiencing more feelings of disconnectedness - as religions are morphing these days and making lots of people feel like society is coming apart at the seams here and there - we have to make it okay to go through these changes without that isolated feeling. Of course, big corporations and employers are playing their part in this downward spiral, removing security from families by only caring about THEIR bottom line. A favorite movie of mine, Bulworth, is an off-beat type that exposes politics in this country for what it really is, incidentally.

  • ZeroZero Veteran

    @Lionduck said:
    It is my perhaps somewhat ignorant opinion that there is only one effective way, That is the hard way. Heart to heart, mouth to mouth, ear to ear. We must change the mind set of not only the would be attackers, but of the communities and families they come from and are within.

    We must start within and make sure our own house (mind) is clear.

    Here is the challenge - how to know 'our' own house is clear?
    Assuming there is a fixed 'our'.

    lobster
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited March 2016

    I think it's important not to get caught up with the idea that this is either a modern problem or an epidemic. The same ability for a man to sacrifice himself on the battlefield to eliminate an enemy squad allows a man to blow himself up as a suicide bomber in a crowd of innocents. We call one a hero and the other a terrorist. The terrorist has been taught not to see any innocents, is the difference.

    Our media also magnifies the problem in their battle for viewership and of course the politicians love a terrified pool of voters because they're easy to control. You look at anything through a magnifying glass, it looks bigger than it actually is. That doesn't mean we don't have to address the problem.

    yagrkarastiperson
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited March 2016

    I think it is largely mindless to refer to 'terror' acts as "mindless."

    yagrkarastiCinorjerlobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I was about to add, indeed, can murder ever be 'Mindful'...?
    Reminds me of a UK comedian, (Alan Carr) commenting on the phrase, 'mindless vandalism'.

    "What other kind is there? I mean, look at the public 'phone box! It's a mess! Nobody's going to go in and say "Ooh, yes, I see what they did here...." approvingly!!"

    (He's gay and also extremely camp. You have to see him to believe it....!)

    Walker
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

    A whole page of replies, and nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room. Islam.
    Of coure it is vital to deal with the social and secular causes of contemporary global terrorism, such as poverty, inequality, lack of education, etc.
    But it is shortsighted to downplay the fact that the current crop of terrorists are muslim, inspired by Islam, given permission and encouragement by Islamic scripture, and are commiting their murders in the name of Allah and Mohammad (pbuh).
    There are strong religious roots to the violence, not just secular social roots.

    lobsterDairyLama
  • ^^^ Can we kill the Islamist terrorists and blame it on elephant worshippers?

    @genkaku said:
    I think it is largely mindless to refer to 'terror' acts as "mindless."

    As part of the terrorised, I feel it is important to kick monks up the backside all the way to the mosque, where they can set up a peaceful practice/dialogue. o:)

    One caveat - NO proselytizing.

    Not even for the wrathfully inclined?

    Oh ... we have to follow 'the rules' - always seems part of the problem to me ... :p

    Ah well, back to armchair solutions ... :3

    LionduckFosdick
  • techietechie India Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @JamestheGiant said:
    A whole page of replies, and nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room. Islam.
    Of coure it is vital to deal with the social and secular causes of contemporary global terrorism, such as poverty, inequality, lack of education, etc.
    But it is shortsighted to downplay the fact that the current crop of terrorists are muslim, inspired by Islam, given permission and encouragement by Islamic scripture, and are commiting their murders in the name of Allah and Mohammad (pbuh).
    There are strong religious roots to the violence, not just secular social roots.

    Even if that's true, you solve the problem by addressing economic issues, not by attacking a certain religion and antagonizing its followers. In India, hindu fanatics regularly provoke the Muslims, even peaceful ones. The result is chaos, not a change in society as a whole.

    lobsterpersonkarastiFosdick
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

    There has to be action on multiple angles. Not just socially and economically but also within Islam.

  • Ideology like communism can be defeated because the result is plain for all to see. How can one defeat a belief that the rewards come in the afterlife? That what happens here and now is unimportant. That killing is God's will. That the end justifies the means. To those who think the problem can be easily solved through economic means .......

    Various personages involved in the revival of Buddhism in India such as Anagarika Dharmapala and The Mahabodhi Movement of the 1890s as well as Dr. B. R. Ambedkar hold the Muslim Rule in India responsible for the decay of Buddhism in India.[65][66][67][68][69]

    In 1193, Qutb-ud-din Aybak, a Turkish commander, seized control of Delhi, leaving defenseless the northeastern territories that were the heart of Buddhist India. The Mahabodhi Temple was almost completely destroyed by the invading Muslim forces.[66] One of Qutb-ud-Din's generals, Ikhtiar Uddin Muhammad Bin Bakhtiyar Khilji, invaded Magadha and destroyed the Buddhist shrines at Nalanda.[70] The Buddhism of Magadha underwent a significant decline under Khilji.[66]

    In 1200 Muhammad Khilji, one of Qutb-ud-Din's generals destroyed monasteries fortified by the Sena armies, such as the one at Vikramshila. Many monuments of ancient Indian civilization were destroyed by the invading armies, including Buddhist sanctuaries[71] near Benares. Buddhist monks who escaped the massacre fled to Nepal, Tibet and South India.[72]

    According to the Isdhoo (Laamu Atoll), monks from monasteries of the southern atoll of Haddhunmathi were brought to Malé and beheaded.[72]

    Timur destroyed Buddhist establishments and raided areas in which Buddhism had flourished.[73][74]

    Mughal rule also contributed to the decline of Buddhism. They are reported to have destroyed many Hindu temples and Buddhist shrines alike or converted many sacred Hindu places into Muslim shrines and mosques.[75] Mughal rulers like Aurangzeb destroyed Buddhist temples and monasteries and replaced them with mosques.[76]

    The Ladakh Buddhist Association has said: "There is a deliberate and organised design to convert Kargil's Buddhists to Islam. In the last four years, about 50 girls and married women with children were taken and converted from village Wakha alone. If this continues unchecked, we fear that Buddhists will be wiped out from Kargil in the next two decades or so. Anyone objecting to such allurement and conversions is harassed."[77][78]

    Per Will Durant said, "The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within." Mahmud, a Muslim invader Turkish chieftain, massacred many Buddhist monks and burnt many shrines, stupas and temples. He viewed Buddhism as a peasant version of Hinduism, and either forcibly converted them to Islam or prosecuted them to death.[79]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#India

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 2016

    There's nothing wrong with religion per se, it is just the followers interpretations that cause the problem...In other words human nature is the problem....( and the solution)

    "Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox"

    "Mind is the forerunner of all good states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, because of that, happiness follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves"

    ~Twin Verses...The Dhammapada~

    yagr
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    When I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior. Now I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.

    Though intolerance may be as old as religion itself, we still see vigorous signs of its virulence. In Europe, there are intense debates about newcomers wearing veils or wanting to erect minarets and episodes of violence against Muslim immigrants. Radical atheists issue blanket condemnations of those who hold to religious beliefs. In the Middle East, the flames of war are fanned by hatred of those who adhere to a different faith.

    Granted, every religion has a sense of exclusivity as part of its core identity. Even so, I believe there is genuine potential for mutual understanding. While preserving faith toward one’s own tradition, one can respect, admire and appreciate other traditions.
    Dalai Lama

    Lunatic religionists, fanatical Buddhists, like some loony/violent/disturbed people everywhere, can be a problem
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

    As usual it is our potential and privilege to do good as best we understand it ...
    ... well that is my plan ... need to find a big 'monk butt kicking' boot to encourage some inter faith and inter cultural dialogue ... Maybe I iz too wrathful ... o:)

    pegembaraFosdick
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @JamestheGiant said: A whole page of replies, and nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room. Islam. Of coure it is vital to deal with the social and secular causes of contemporary global terrorism, such as poverty, inequality, lack of education, etc.
    But it is shortsighted to downplay the fact that the current crop of terrorists are muslim, inspired by Islam, given permission and encouragement by Islamic scripture, and are commiting their murders in the name of Allah and Mohammad (pbuh).
    There are strong religious roots to the violence, not just secular social roots.

    Well said. And how is one supposed to have a "dialogue" with a bunch of fanatical religious fascists who want to make the whole world into an Islamic State and impose a barbaric interpretation of Sharia Law?

    Meanwhile this is the kind of fanaticism we are seeing in the UK, a Muslim shopkeeper recently murdered for wishing Christians a happy easter:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12205279/Murdered-Muslim-shopkeepers-family-fear-for-their-lives.html

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @lobster said:> Lunatic religionists, fanatical Buddhists...

    Ridiculous. When travelling through London I never worry about being blown up by a Buddhist suicide bomber.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @Dakini said: Offer education and economic development--in short, jobs, a stake in society, lives and a future that derives meaning from contributing to society rather than from violence and destruction.

    So is the Islamic State going to provide all that to it's citizens?

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Let's be careful not turn this thread into the muslim-hating that we see on so many other sites on the internet.
    So, how do we move towards ending the hatred instead of stoking it?
    Or perhaps there really is no solution in the human realm... hmmm.

    The Buddha said in verse 5 of the Dhammapada:
    "Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love alone they cease. This is an eternal law".
    That sounds like a good place to start. But how is that done in the face of armies of fanatics, (on both sides!?) and secret terrorist bomb plots?
    Do we have to take the long view? Like, if people going into in the middle east had done like the Buddha said, and acted with love for the past 2000 years, all would be well now. Sure, but too late now! Acting with kindness in the short term... in the face of a clear and present danger... how is that done?
    I guess in each moment of decision we are faced with a choice to act more wholesomely and kindly, or give in to a darker choice of anger and retribution. Easier said than done! Still, maybe that's the trick... in each decision, always take the one that leads to lightness, and not darkness. It sounds too simple? Maybe it is simple, but very difficult.

    Hmmm, is it even possible? Maybe.

    lobsterCinorjer
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @JamestheGiant said:> Let's be careful not turn this thread into the muslim-hating that we see on so many other sites on the internet.

    The middle way would be to acknowledge that Islamic fundamentalism is a major problem for the world, but not to add to the fire. I suspect that longer-term this problem will only be resolved by the Islamic world, since westerners will always be regarded as "Crusaders".

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @JamestheGiant said:> Let's be careful not turn this thread into the muslim-hating that we see on so many other sites on the internet.

    The middle way would be to acknowledge that Islamic fundamentalism is a major problem for the world, but not to add to the fire. I suspect that longer-term this problem will only be resolved by the Islamic world, since westerners will always be regarded as "Crusaders".

    Yep I totally agree with you there. One thing I've heard smart commentators say, is the great mass of sensible, moderate muslims out there need to stand up and make it clear to their fellow muslims that this kind of thing is unacceptable. And then do something about it. But there is so much fear of revenge, so there is only silence.

    silverShoshinFosdick
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

    @Kerome , you are right, and apparently toddlers killed more people than terrorists in the USA in 2105. Mostly preschool kids playing with handguns!

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Sometimes we (humans) ignore a problem until it becomes obvious it has gotten way out of control and blown up in our faces. That's what has happened with Trump and his party, first it was kind of amusing and then it was obnoxious and now it's "holy hell, what do we do to stop this train wreck??" Daesh is kind of the same. They were ignored just long enough that now the leaders within Islam are at a loss of how to handle it. But it is pretty hard to reason with people who skew their religion as much as Daesh does.

    It's like trying to reason with the Phelps church. It just doesn't work. They think they have the backing of scripture, but as I understand that is not the case. If you pick out sentences, yes. But not within the context of how the Koran is split up and meant to be understood. The same as the old and new testaments. Most Christians realize the NT is what makes the most sense, but you have those ones that try to use info from the OT to make their arguments. Fundamentalist Muslims do the same thing. But the more they get push back, the more they cement their ideologies.

    They want power, and right now they have it through our media. But the media is a product driven by demand like everything else. So who is really to blame for what the media shows? We are.

    CinorjerBhanteLuckyFosdick
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Any time I visit (and revisit, over and over) these kinds of problems in my mind-problems where there are many people banded together for negative reasons and with negative outcomes for themselves and others-that is the only answer I arrive at, @Cinorjer. To be the change, in our small corner of the world. Within ourselves, and if we are lucky enough, within our families and MAYBE our neighborhood and community. To help when we can, and to not harm when we can't do anything else, or don't know what to do. Dukkha. It's all around us. We have the antidote but we can only use it on ourselves.

    CinorjerLionduckVastmind
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    It's the "catch 22" for the moderate Muslim "Damned if they do and damned if they don't!" And that sadly is the fundamentals of the (often mindlessly driven) followers of the Abrahamic monotheist belief systems for ya...( all three of them)

    ...a religious ideological trap, built on rewards & punishments...which has arisen from not knowing ( "ignorance" ) any better...

    The past shapes the present and the present shapes the future !
    (....and these present acts of terror are just the harvests being reaped from what was sown in the past.... we reap what we sow)

    As a society we must teach our toddlers well or we'll continue to have hell....to pay

    personrobot
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    In my opinion the only real solution is through a cultural shift. Change seems to come in fits and starts but eventually happens through new ideas taking hold in the young and the old dying off. So I think taking a long multi generational approach is best and to that end increasing virtue and understanding in yourself and your circle of influence is a true path towards a better world.

    In the mean time though we do need to protect ourselves and enforce laws upon the would be trouble makers of the world. Just don't fool yourself that those quick, temporary measures lead to lasting change.

    lobsterCinorjerVastmindsilver
  • @Zero said:
    Here is the challenge - how to know 'our' own house is clear?
    Assuming there is a fixed 'our'.

    There is our situation. Ownership.

    From Prophet Shakyamuni (PBUH) I learned to be the moon and the finger pointer.

    What happens if we have been radicalised by ignorance, delusion, madness, drugs, poverty, circumstance, religious frauds etc? Will we be abandoned, labeled, marginalised, recommended for killing?

    I'll do my best and encourage my representatives (Sangha) to do better. o:)

    Cinorjer
  • @lobster said:

    @Zero said:
    Here is the challenge - how to know 'our' own house is clear?
    Assuming there is a fixed 'our'.

    There is our situation. Ownership.

    From Prophet Shakyamuni (PBUH) I learned to be the moon and the finger pointer.

    What happens if we have been radicalised by ignorance, delusion, madness, drugs, poverty, circumstance, religious frauds etc? Will we be abandoned, labeled, marginalised, recommended for killing?

    I'll do my best and encourage my representatives (Sangha) to do better. o:)

    By "clear house" or "clear mind", I do not say that one must be perfect or "pure".
    To me, in this context, it means (at least in part):

    1. Recognize that no one is perfect - perfection is not in the equation.
    2. Recognize that each of us, without exception, has biases.
      a. One is willing to accept one's own biases but not be owned by them.
      b. Accept that others have each his/her own biases
      c. Accept that it is alright to disagree
    3. Recognition/acceptance of oneself - one's own worth.
    4. Inclusive in the recognition/acceptance of one's own worth is the
      recognition/acceptance of the worth of each and everyone.

    Then, maybe, we can begin.

    One person alone can not change the world. But one person can bring change in another who will bring change to another, and so on. All change begins in the mind of one person when that one person takes action.

    In one way or another, we have all effectively been radicalized or marginalized at some point in our lives. Some (too many) still are.

    All we can do is keep trying to do our best and encourage others, to do the same each in his/her own way.

    Do I have the solutions, most likely not. However, someone once said,"If you want to climb the mountain you have to do it one step at a time. But to do that you have to begin with that first step" I'm told the view at the summit is great.

    Enough of my ignorant palaver.
    (Hope I didn't break my own caveat.)

    Peace to all

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    this was in my FB memories today, it's an excellent article about what we can do to change our world on an individual/local scale. It's very good :) I'm glad I found it again and re-read it. Sometimes, FB is good for something, lol

    http://levekunst.com/revolution-through-kindness/

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I liked this.

    lobsterkarasti
  • Thanks @Lionduck @karasti @federica I think you have the solution. <3

    The buck starts here.

    We may be limited in what we can do about [insert sitaution] BUT our sphere of influence is where we can make a real difference.

  • techietechie India Veteran

    When I was young, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am old, I want to change myself.
    -Rumi

    lobsterJeroen
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