Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

New Zealand shootings plus one, two, three....

genkakugenkaku VeteranNorthampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

This afternoon, as the distance between "now" and Friday's slaughter at two New Zealand mosques widens, I found myself writing to a tech-savvy friend, asking for a link to the actual footage of the slaughter. I didn't have the stomach for it earlier and may not even now.

The internet is currently awash in tut-tutting disapprobation of showing the tapes, but I for one get tired of the moral high ground without evidence of the alternative. Facebook and Instagram are taking their lumps. Perhaps there are those who say "there is no need to see hard evidence." To which I reply, "oh yes there is."

Censoring, erasing, to-show-it-is-to-promote-it ... I don't look forward to looking at the video, but I also don't look forward to not looking at it.

What's your take?

Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 16

    One of the first jobs I had when arriving in Australia ( 1970) was in a large slaughterhouse, .my job didn't involve the killing (murdering) of sentient beings. it was processing their body parts...The sounds of the cries for help from the animals echoed throughout the workplace along with the smell of death...I didn't last long there...

    And just recently I was on jury service, it was a murder rape trial, we had to view the photos and police video of the crime scene, which included the blooded battered body of the naked victim and hear the gruesome detail of the event...

    I'm not squeamish in any way I've learnt to keep my emotions in check, so I can handle gruesome images......But if I have a choice of seeing or not seeing, I choose not to see...and this being the case regarding the victims of the recent Mosques massacre...

    For some no doubt....Curiosity could kill or fuel the compassion

    KundolobsterVastmind
  • KundoKundo Veteran Sydney, Australia Veteran

    Just because you can handle it @genkaku doesn’t mean it should be freely available to view. Not everyone shares your thought processes and it can trigger other people in various ways, including copycats. I see nothing beneficial in it.

    federicaVastmind
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    It's not who looks at it, it's why there is this morbid curiosity in the first place. As @Kundo says, not everyone is of your mind-set.
    I don't need to see pictures of Concentration camps, or people beaten, bound and gagged, or girls being subjected to genital mutilation, or children being sexually abused by high-powered Cardinals, or women being molested and raped, to know it happens.
    My compassion isn't affected or lessened one bit by avoiding seeing such things.

    I don't need to see, to feel.

    lobsterVastmind
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 16

    To address your post, directly:

    @genkaku said:
    This afternoon, as the distance between "now" and Friday's slaughter at two New Zealand mosques widens, I found myself writing to a tech-savvy friend, asking for a link to the actual footage of the slaughter. I didn't have the stomach for it earlier and may not even now.

    I personally cannot understand the notion of even waiting to have the possible stomach for it. I'm curious frankly, as to why you're revealing/admitting this....?

    The internet is currently awash in tut-tutting disapprobation of showing the tapes, but I for one get tired of the moral high ground without evidence of the alternative.

    There IS evidence. The alternative is to NOT show it. By concealing it or refusing to show it, you avoid possibly sowing, nourishing germinating and cultivating the seeds of separatism, racism, and intolerance. You have your reasons for wishing to see such things (although I'm not sure I'm clear on what they actually are) but sadly, not everyone is a Good and honourable Buddhist with the best of intentions. As was amply made clear by Frazer Anning. There are far too many like him getting an airing...

    Facebook and Instagram are taking their lumps. Perhaps there are those who say "there is no need to see hard evidence." To which I reply, "oh yes there is."

    What is it then? What is this need? Why do you 'need' to see this? Is it a global need? Does everyone need to see it, or would you choose a select few? How would you exclude those whose 'needs' are negative?

    Censoring, erasing, to-show-it-is-to-promote-it ... I don't look forward to looking at the video, but I also don't look forward to not looking at it.

    Which is frankly, ridiculous. You can't have it both ways because by looking at it it, you can't then satisfy the latter need and un- look at it.
    In your shoes, I'd nurture the first thought and discard the second. Remember the two wolves who fight, and which one you feed.

    What's your take?

    Ugh.

  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    No thanks!!! Not sure of the appeal mate.....

    Kundo
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the void Veteran

    What's your take?

    Personally I wouldn't care to watch it or other videos of real world graphic violence, such as beheading videos, etc. But disallowing the showing of the video strikes my sensibilities as being on the too paternalistic side.

  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    I know it’s only a label but this guy has made me feel ashamed to be an Australian today.

    ?????

    He has brought shame on his family and friends and the community he was raised in.

    Maybe one day he will realise it.

  • KundoKundo Veteran Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited March 17

    On August 17 1991, a man who I refuse to name, shot up my local shopping mall, killing several of my friends, starting with a girl named Roberta with whom I shared a best friend. I was working there at the time and got separated from my mother and ended up cowering for shelter at the train station across the road, not knowing what was going on with my mother's safety.

    I was 16 years old at the time.

    Media back then was freer with what the showed on TV. People like you Genkaku got to binge on the gore. Seeing the blood spatters, dead bodies lying in the mall and got to see the bodies being wheeled out of the mall. They got to see the sheer trauma and horror on faces of people like me, who lost loved ones and they got to see it OVER. AND. OVER. AND. OVER. AGAIN. While people like me just wanted to forget it. And we couldn't. Then we had the people who insisted on a yearly memorial service (people who didn't live in our suburb and said we were horrible for wanting to get on with our lives and "forget the victims"). That lasted about 5 years till the council installed a memorial plaque in the square and told people from outside the area to stop coming and disrupting our lives with impromptu shrines and memorial services. I had nightmares for years. It wasn't till I was about 28 that I didn't have a dream about it at least once a week.

    The event was called the Strathfield Plaza Massacre. I'm not providing a link. That's what search engines are for.

    I think this morbid curiousity is unnatural. Sorry (kind of) if that offends.

    lobsterBunksShoshin
  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    A friend of a friends daughter was murdered here in Geelong a few months ago (drug deal gone wrong). She was shot and her body burnt.

    Of course it was a source of news for the local paper and still is every now and again.

    Assume every time it’s raised and her daughters name is on the front page again must be heart breaking for her poor mother.

  • KundoKundo Veteran Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited March 17

    @person said:
    but as someone who has been on the receiving end of anger over misconstrued statements I feel compelled to say something. I can imagine @genkaku's intent to be a wish to face horror directly and to not shy away from it as he might look at his own mind.

    This isn't in anger, it's just stating the facts of what happened.

    You're misconstruing my statements if you say I'm talking in anger. This is why I didn't @ genkaku. We were asked for our thoughts. I just gave mine shrugs

  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran
    edited March 17

    "My fellows in the religion of love are those who love; and they have approved my ignominy and thought well of my disgrace". Ibn al-'Arabi, by contrast, calls the Malamiyya "the most perfect of the gnostics", those who "know and are not known".

    Here is @genkaku web page
    https://genkaku-again.blogspot.com

    Heresy for All!

  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    Police have asked the public not to share this video.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Yes @Bunks that was the first thing during the press conference the police and Prime minister said...There's a disturbing video going around, please don't watch it or forward it on to others...They also gave out the number for free counselling....

    Tragic events like this can deeply disturb some people, even if they were not directly involved...

    There are many people in Christchurch still traumatized after experiencing the big earthquake back in 2011....

    Bunks
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @genkaku said:
    Perhaps there are those who say "there is no need to see hard evidence." To which I reply, "oh yes there is."

    Personally I don’t need to see it. I’m grateful I or my loved ones weren’t caught up in it, but i’ll believe the news services when they describe it. However flawed they are, that’s what they’re for. So hard evidence that the event actually happened doesn’t come into it, I think.

    As to other people needing to see the footage, I don’t think it is healthy or beneficial. I think if you really look into the roots of this urge, you’ll find the Three Poisons in some form, and giving in to it is just feeding them. I don’t think it will be very different from watching John Wick in the latest shoot-me-up action movie.

    Kundo
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Everybody knows what this guy looks like. His photo has been published worldwide. They know his name. Yet every news footage I watch of his arrest and appearance in court, he's 'clouded out' or fogged.

    Why?

    So as to not perpetuate his egotistic desire for notoriety and publicity.
    So as to not feed his twisted need to promote his truly warped sense of importance he seems to feel he deserves.

    This will not be forgotten. It will never be forgotten, not by us in our lifetimes, and most certainly not by the people of Christchurch, New Zealand or Australia, where it seems his horrendous thoughts were cultivated.

    I think we can safely say, @genkaku, that the general consensus of opinion can be said to be - No. Leave it be, and let it go.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @person said:

    What's your take?

    Personally I wouldn't care to watch it or other videos of real world graphic violence, such as beheading videos, etc. But disallowing the showing of the video strikes my sensibilities as being on the too paternalistic side.

    If there were no reason for the censure, or it seemed illogical and heavy-handed, I'd agree with you.
    As things stand, I think the global request to please not raise this man's notoriety, or let those of similar mind "enjoy" it, is a valid, timely and wholly appropriate one.

    personVastmind
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited March 17

    Unfortunately, just hearing the details sets off the visuals in my minds eye.

    I don't feel like I'm being overly sensitive in not wishing to see his video just as I feel ok about wishing we never have to experience this kind of pain again.

    I think we've learned pretty much all we need to learn about this kind of suffering.

    Deep down, we even know how to treat it but downing the "other" is how current business is done.

    Kundo
  • genkakugenkaku Veteran Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited March 17

    Thanks all -- comments appreciated.

    I guess my frequency was that pictures are harder to escape than knicker-twisting imaginings. Forgetting in a welter of feeling doesn't seem to work ... or hasn't in previous incidents.

    How long will it take this atrocity to slip into forgetfulness? Not long is my bet ... a week or two, tops. Pictures are harder to excise. Pictures of my potential.

    Lord save us from exceptionalism and the willingness to exclude myself -- I can point, but can I own? -- from this heinous shit. For some reason, the words of former U.S. president Harry S. Truman spring to mind: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

    Anyway, thanks.

    lobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the void Veteran

    @federica said:

    @person said:

    What's your take?

    Personally I wouldn't care to watch it or other videos of real world graphic violence, such as beheading videos, etc. But disallowing the showing of the video strikes my sensibilities as being on the too paternalistic side.

    If there were no reason for the censure, or it seemed illogical and heavy-handed, I'd agree with you.
    As things stand, I think the global request to please not raise this man's notoriety, or let those of similar mind "enjoy" it, is a valid, timely and wholly appropriate one.

    Good point. It reminds me of a string of copycat suicides a while back, I can't remember where, where people would throw themselves in front of oncoming trains. Despite efforts to prevent them the sensationalism and notoriety that came from the news coverage kept driving the trend. Officials asked the news to take it down several notches and the specific problem was largely resolved.

    adamcrossley
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 18

    @genkaku said:
    Thanks all -- comments appreciated.

    I guess my frequency was that pictures are harder to escape than knicker-twisting imaginings. Forgetting in a welter of feeling doesn't seem to work ... or hasn't in previous incidents.

    Really...?

    How long will it take this atrocity to slip into forgetfulness? Not long is my bet ... a week or two, tops. Pictures are harder to excise. Pictures of my potential.

    Yes, we have pictures. We also have people who are determined that such events are not forgotten, events like the Holocaust, and the Bloody Sunday murders. We have history which - without the benefit of contemporary pictures - gives us insight into past events that changed the course of history, and by turn, changed mankind's attitudes to, for example, slavery, and gender equality.
    You have very little faith in the determination of people to Never Forget, if you believe this is a mere glitch in the silk-screen of Memory.

    Lord save us from exceptionalism and the willingness to exclude myself -- I can point, but can I own? -- from this heinous shit. For some reason, the words of former U.S. president Harry S. Truman spring to mind: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

    Not sure quite what you mean by that comment, quoting Truman, but I will counter with one of my own.

    "When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn't a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out."

    For Evil to triumph it is sufficient that Good Men do nothing.

    We don't need pictures to cry protest with one voice.
    And we shall continue to do so.

    KeromeShoshinKundo
  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    How long will it take this atrocity to slip into forgetfulness? Not long is my bet ... a week or two, tops. Pictures are harder to excise. Pictures of my potential.

    Exactly.
    Everyday atrocities against people (others, insurgents, collateral damage against the warp on terrorists go largely unheard) The poor and innocent are daily exploited, poisoned by corporations, childrens futures are stolen etc.

    A temporary media frenzy and meanwhile unreported dukkha is collaborativey buried. Feed the outrage machine ...

    A shabby racist is no more interesting, impactful than the war for oil, promotion of fascist regimes by the trumpette fakirs, putin putty and similar disinteresting tools. Some are just buried, some are busy burying ...

    Strong emotive outrage is just part of our self entertainment and entrancement ... just so you know ...

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Hang on @lobster; this is not just some' shabby racist' This is a mass-murderer who wantonly and horrifically took 50 lives of innocent, peaceful citizens - at prayer - in under a half-hour, and irrevocably changed the lives of hundreds of people, for ever.

    To say that he is no more interesting or impactful than the 'war for oil' is, rather thoughtless, to say the VERY least.

    We can't actively DO anything, single-handedly, about every injurious, unjust act that happens, either distantly or in our midst; but please don't club this atrocity in with materialistic quests for dominance and wealth.
    I don't think New Zealanders anywhere would appreciate it...

    Kundo
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @lobster said:

    How long will it take this atrocity to slip into forgetfulness? Not long is my bet ... a week or two, tops. Pictures are harder to excise. Pictures of my potential.

    Exactly.
    Everyday atrocities against people (others, insurgents, collateral damage against the warp on terrorists go largely unheard) The poor and innocent are daily exploited, poisoned by corporations, childrens futures are stolen...
    (snip)
    Strong emotive outrage is just part of our self entertainment and entrancement ... just so you know ...

    It is the nature of impermanence. If you had to remember every atrocity, you would be buried under a mountain of other people’s suffering. It is better to give it its place, grieve for them and move on.

    Even these 49 are fewer than those 150 or so who died in the Boeing 737 crash in Ethiopia, which is getting a lot less coverage. What exactly are we grieving for? Is it shock that a white nationalist would do this?

  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    What exactly are we grieving for? Is it shock that a white nationalist would do this?

    I guess for me part of it is that I am familiar with the place where this happened and also the fact that the perpetrator grew up not so far from where I grew up and in a very similar environment.

    Just feels a bit close for comfort

    Kundo
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No, it's deliberate, premeditated mass murder of men, women and children, shot in the face, by one person, in one place.
    I don't think the plane crash was deliberate....

    Kundo
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 18

    This is not an incident to bracket in with global financial greed, or natural or accidental tragedies.
    This is a deliberate, savage, criminal atrocity, perpetrated by a grossly misguided and radicalised man, who sought to wreak havoc and single-handedly destroyed the peaceful existence of an entire nation, throwing it into grieving, bewildered and horrified turmoil.

    I keep a candle lit in my room, every day, in memory of those who have suffered, and are yet suffering at the hands of others.
    I can't name them all, yet I know they exist, or have lived. That's all I can do, in my own innocent, small and probably utterly insignificant way.

    But I 'remember' them.

    Kundoadamcrossley
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I think there is an avenue to practice mindfulness there, and maybe find some underlying assumptions if the Christchurch killings arouse more shock and compassion in you than the Ethiopian Airlines crash. In terms of human suffering, the airplane crash was a bigger event, yet it seems the shootings are getting much more press coverage.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    Just feels a bit close for comfort

    Understood.

    Terror and institutional murder (war on terror) are all an abomination. I feel the response to all violence is not emotive outbursts but compassion for those facing such terrible impacts in a palpable form.

    What form is most helpful? My feeling is equinimity. How many of us have sufficient?

    I don't look forward to looking at the video, but I also don't look forward to not looking at it.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 18

    I guess when it comes to...to view or not to view the disturbing video ...I'm more inclined to think along the lines of "How would it make me feel to know that other people were viewing and distributing a disturbing video of my family members being brutally gunned down by hatred"

    The families are already grieving their loss...and to know that some people are trying to find and view the video of their loved ones being brutally murdered by hatred...is like adding more salt to the wound.... Hence why I personally have no desire to watch the video...

    Hmm...in fact voyeurism comes to mind... enjoyment (a form of excitement) from seeing the pain and distress of others..

    DavidKundoadamcrossley
  • BunksBunks Veteran Australia Veteran

    @Shoshin - I guess it's about intention.

    KundolobsteradamcrossleyShoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Yes true @Bunks

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions

    If you think about it why would a person have such a desire to watch a video of innocent men women and children being brutally murdered by a fanatic filled with hatred...

    It's not as if we have no understanding of the pain and suffering in the world ( Dukkha Samsara)...The mind is quite capable of conjuring up such images without the need to actually see the real thing/footage....

    What's the motivation is behind those who desire to seek out the video and watch it...

    Is it out of compassion ?

    Or perhaps to develop more Compassion? (Seeing is believing)

    Adrenaline rush ? (thrill seeking...a case of feel the fear and do/view it anyway )

    Or plain old Curiosity ? (Wanting to see what all the fuss is about)

    In the long run it's the individual's choice ... each to their own ....whatever floats one's raft

    Bunks
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited March 18

    @Kerome said:
    I think there is an avenue to practice mindfulness there, and maybe find some underlying assumptions if the Christchurch killings arouse more shock and compassion in you than the Ethiopian Airlines crash. In terms of human suffering, the airplane crash was a bigger event, yet it seems the shootings are getting much more press.

    That's because everybody can understand why and how a plane could crash and so we expect a few of them to happen. We pay our money and we take our chances. Plane crashes are obviously going to happen sometimes even with our best intentions in play.

    I for one have a hard time understanding how anybody in this day and age can walk into a peaceful place and start killing us. It is going to get more coverage because it is just plain wrong.

    It's amazing how far we have come and at the same time, it is amazing how ignorant we still are.

    ShoshinKundo
  • KundoKundo Veteran Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @David said:
    I for one have a hard time understanding how anybody in this day and age can walk into a peaceful place and start killing us. It is going to get more coverage because it is just plain wrong.

    It's amazing how far we have come and at the same time, it is amazing how ignorant we still are.

    This 100%

  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran
    edited March 19

    @Bunks said:
    @Shoshin - I guess it's about intention.

    Indeed.

    There is nothing to titillate, nothing newsworthy in watching car crashes, terrorists, wars or normalised truama. However that is most of the news. Bad news. Many journalists so called, are providing news as entertainment, propaganda or sponsored by vested interests. Where is the good news?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/19/new-zealand-shooting-ardern-says-she-will-never-speak-suspects-name

    We have less and less informed opinion, despite more ways to interact with the world and local events.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_journalism

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    As a secondary and associated article, found on @lobster's first link, above, this piece caught my eye too...

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    We can't actively DO anything, single-handedly, about every injurious, unjust act that happens

    We can.
    Single handed but holding out and on to hands.
    Every effort towards peace, understanding, wisdom, virtue, empathy and radiating out from our practice is changing the ignorance and dukkha, that is so blinding ...
    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/the-commodification-of-buddhism-and-the-persecution-of-islam

    Buddhism = Awake
    Islam = Peace

    I'll join.

  • NikayalukeNikayaluke New Australia New

    @genkaku said:
    This afternoon, as the distance between "now" and Friday's slaughter at two New Zealand mosques widens, I found myself writing to a tech-savvy friend, asking for a link to the actual footage of the slaughter. I didn't have the stomach for it earlier and may not even now.

    The internet is currently awash in tut-tutting disapprobation of showing the tapes, but I for one get tired of the moral high ground without evidence of the alternative. Facebook and Instagram are taking their lumps. Perhaps there are those who say "there is no need to see hard evidence." To which I reply, "oh yes there is."

    Censoring, erasing, to-show-it-is-to-promote-it ... I don't look forward to looking at the video, but I also don't look forward to not looking at it.

    What's your take?

    ?? I'm in australia, I assure you it's very real. Most horrific thing iv seen for us and New Zealand.Most of us are ashamed at one of ours has done this to our much loved neighbors, I accidentally saw part of video..I wouldnt recommend it. Serious Racism problems here..

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    NZ Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern's Ministerial statement

    ‘We cannot know your grief, but we can walk with you at every stage’

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    And we do.
    We can look at, hear about and witness (purposely or otherwise) every tragedy and atrocity with a dual mind: Horror and empathy.
    I Mindfully embrace and link arms with all beings who suffer; either deliberately at the hands of others, or through some tragic accident, incident or occurrence.

    Fortunately we have been graced with the discovery of A Path. And thank goodness, it's a wide one....

  • genkakugenkaku Veteran Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    As a footnote to this discussion, here is a 1939 interview done with a Charles Monroe in Massachusetts. I have always admired -- if squeamishly -- Monroe's approach to the death penalty, which he dislikes and yet realizes, as an American, he is party to... and therefore went to an execution.

    Sorry, the link thingie doesn't work on my machine: Here's the link: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mss/wpalh1/15/1505/15050121/15050121.pdf

Sign In or Register to comment.