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Meditation and Anti-Depressant

TozanTozan Turkey Explorer

Dear noble sangha, I have obsesif compulsif disorder and thanks to three years of meditation I am about get rid of it. But sime times OCD and anxiety attacks appear and I take care of it via meditation. But this is not every time useful and then I take my antidepresant and feel calm. So my question is this: should I use only but only meditation practice for gaining a wholesome mind or is it OK to take anti depressant when it is needed. İndeed I'm afraid of taking antidepressants due to it can be an obstacle for my practice. This is only a doubt but makes me disturbed. Thank you <3

Shoshin1lobsterDavidRMW
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Comments

  • paskapaska Explorer

    The teachers want you on meds if it helps and prescribe

    TozanlobsterShoshin1David
  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran

    It is a long path to heal yourself from mental illness through self-knowledge and meditation. I wish you all the best.

    TozanShoshin1lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Fringe medicine for hair dressing advice …
    Hair dressers for gossip.

    Doctors for medicine.
    Dharma for meditation.

    What we can say is calm and removing stress is a life time course/direction …

    TozanNeridaSuraShine
  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran

    I watched an interesting documentary last night about how sessions of psychedelics with therapy compare to antidepressants, it turns out the psychedelics are a very viable alternative. Maybe something to look into if you feel your antidepressants are not working for you.

    paskaTozan
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    I take medication and I consider that maybe the scientists and drug company business guys/gals helped make the medications as part of the wishes of many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas? Maybe it's true?

    Most people don't deal with the symptoms of depression. But they will take measures to deal with things (whatever they may be) before meditation. For example if they are very tired they may splash cold water on themselves in the shower to wake up before their meditation. If it is ok to splash water on yourself then why not to take a medicine that helps with your depression? Isn't it easier to meditate with less symptoms of depression?

    TozanlobsterShoshin1
  • TozanTozan Turkey Explorer
    edited May 26

    sn't it easier to meditate with less symptoms of depression?

    that is completely true.

    lobsterShoshin1
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Tozan <3

    Came across these hyperventilation techniques …
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/comments/o3fmbu/last_night_i_finally_understood_why_it_would_be/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

    It includes the Wim Hof method.

    Be careful. Stay grounded too … B)

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    There are two types of illnesses. Physical illnesses, and Mental I'll illnesses. Physical illnesses are simple to solve, therefore there are a lot of effective drugs that you can take for it. Mental illnesses are very hard to treat and the treatments are not as successful as the treatments for physical ailments. Since physical illnesses are easier to solve, ordinary human beings of high capacity can solve these problems. If you don't have fixed karma and do as your doctor says, you will recover. However, if your Karma is fixed, there is nothing that they can do to help you overcome the problem. I have seen many people with mental illnesses, my heart goes out to them. Only the Buddha who has supreme knowledge is able to with 100 percent certainty, heal mental afflictions. The basic problem with people with mental illnesses are their thoughts. The mind and body are one. You can tell the state of a person's mind by looking at their appearance, and the sound of their voice. The face and the voice usually show what is going on inside a person's head. You must first know about a Buddhist concept. It is called the ten world's. Each of these world's represent a person's state of mind. The first is that of hell. A person who is in hell, will experience intense suffering and feelings of resentment will arise in their mind. The next world is that of the hungry ghost. In this world, the person is being completely controlled by greed and is suffering from not having his desires fulfilled. The next world is that of animals. Foolishness is can be used to describe this world. They only think of the moment and not of the future. They pick on those who are weak, and retreat in the face of a strong person. The next world is that of the asura. This world is characterized by perversity, jealousy, and flattery towards people who are seen as Superior. The next world is the world of the human being. This world is categorized by calmness. The next world is heaven. People in this state of mind are very happy. I will omit the three remaining world's because I am not well versed in those world's. None of these world's are constant. They can change depending on the on the environment. Some times a person can appear angry, sad, and sometimes happy. In order to remain in a good state of mind one must pay attention to an outstanding teaching such the phrase Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, the title of the Lotus Sutra. Whether the practice works or not is dependent on faith. Study the writings of Nichiren Daishonin to strengthen your faith in the teaching. Be deligent. Everything is dependent on faith. If your karma is not fixed and you listen to your doctor along with your Buddhist instructors, you may be completely healed, however if your karma is fixed, only the Lotus Sutra can help you.

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    That's a pretty bold statement and one filled with assumptions and theories. Please do not mete out medical or psychological advice in such a distinct manner if you have absolutely no medical qualifications to do so. It is highly irresponsible and completely unethical.

    @Tozan, please do not take the above post as anything more than one person's opinion. As with all matters of this nature, we recommend that you seek professional, qualified and expert advice. Anything read on here is pure personal counsel. We may mean well, but in giving what we consider to be concrete factual advice, we are almost certainly mistaken.

    DavidNeridaTozanJeroen
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 21

    When my migraines and tinnitus combo hit in October 2016, I didn't know what to do. I was dealing with a form of GERT caused by taking too much Ibuprofen but didn't know it so when things like an impacted wisdom tooth or sudden chronic headaches come on, I'd be at the Ibuprofen which obviously made me violently sick to my stomach for days at a time.
    I had to change jobs again (better to drop a hammer than a person) because of how bad the head was and then to be so grossly ill on top of it made things appear bleak.

    To make a long story somewhat shorter, my family doctor and my new neurologist have me on a combo of Amitriptyline and Pantoprazole. I think the Pantoprazole will be temporary depending on how much damage I caused. The Amitriptyline made it so the tinnitus is no longer associated with the migraine so although it is annoying and constant, there is no longer any physical pain associated with it.

    The Amitriptyline is also an anti-depressant and I can sometimes feel a kind of rush of serotonin. I know that when the migraine gets bad, it is much harder for meditation to do its thing so personally, I will keep taking it. I may experiment going off of it just to see if I still need it but probably only with direction from the neurologist.

    Not sure if any of that helps but I figured I'd offer my mustard seed.

    Thanks

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I had a pounding headache this morning which I feared would develop and transform into a migraine. It lasted all through my breathing session, but the moment I made myself take a cold shower it subsided markedly, to an irksome slight feeling of pressure.... By the time I had dressed and breakfasted, it had gone completely.

    Shoshin1JeffreyDavidBunks
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @federica said:
    I had a pounding headache this morning which I feared would develop and transform into a migraine. It lasted all through my breathing session, but the moment I made myself take a cold shower it subsided markedly, to an irksome slight feeling of pressure.... By the time I had dressed and breakfasted, it had gone completely.

    I appreciate that but there are other factors at play that won't be solved with a cold shower. I am, however, going to give it a shot in the morning just to see how it goes.

    Speaking of which I am tempted to start cannabis again so I don't recall so many dreams all the time. I'll have to bring that up with my local Sangha. Cannabis alone wasn't helping my sleep though so I doubt swapping it back in place of the Amitriptyline is the greatest idea.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 22

    I certainly never presumed that what I did would be appropriate to your situation, and never intended it to be a recommendation. I merely passed on my experience, really as an account of my own discovery and surprise at the result.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited June 24

    Oh no, @Federica, sorry, I just superimposed your situation on to mine. I actually tried a cold shower and will post about it in the Wim Hof thread tomorrow. Been a long shift.

    federicaBunks
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Monks take medicine. It is useful to be calm with the available tools.
    So personally I find working with the body (yoga) helpful.

    Other people find these calming techniques helpful:

  • RMWRMW Easley, South Carolina U.S.A. New

    Hi, Tozan. I appreciate your delemma.

    I take meds for depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety. I take one SRI to treat both the depression and the OCD. I use one anti-anxiety three times daily as needed.

    When I first started seeing my psychiatrist, it was at a time when the drug pushers came into the office to show the psychiatrists their wares. I was given several SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, usually called simply SRIs). I noticed on every single leaflet within the samples that there was a consistent 40% placebo effect. Therefore, it's possible that 40%, or 2 out of 5 people, use an SRI and don't need it.

    I tried many SRIs before I found one that might be working, and I'm using yet another one now. This makes me question their efficacy for me. I tried twice unsuccessfully to slow down and eventually stop using my SRI.

    I also use an antianxiety 3 times daily as needed. It's not unusual for me to go throughout an entire day not using a single one.

    But what coaxed me into responding to your post is this: Before my older brother was killed by a drunk driver, he told me that I was only masking my mental problems. My brother had two master's degrees and one minor. One of those master's was in psychology. He lacked only 3 or 6 hours before his dissertation. He was above normal intelligence and could tell you everything you asked him about abnormal psych, his chosen field.

    This is why I wonder if the SRI I take is simply pushing down what my mind should be dealing with. So I ask myself these questions: If I can become "awake," will it be with the aid of an SRI? Would I be able to become "awake" without an SRI? Would it matter one way or the other?

    If I were to become awake while using an SRI, I'd always wonder if the SRI helped or slowed me down.

  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran

    I’m no stranger to the field of mental health, and @rmw, I think your brother was not mistaken when he said that nearly all mental health issues are masking some deep seated problem(s). The number of times I have seen people with schizophrenia talk about childhood abuse, or seen researchers talk about the links between being an immigrant and having a mental issue.

    I believe that in order to make serious headway in Buddhism it is necessary to deal with the underlying issues, I don’t think you will get away with just using an SSRI to mask the symptoms. I think the medication’s effects are twofold, one is it makes it more difficult to identify the exact problem by masking the ‘pain point’, and the second is it makes it easier to bear by lessening the suffering.

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 6

    I had to come back and answer this question again. I know you guys won't believe me, but maybe somebody will. Anti depressants don't work and psychiatrists do not know what they are doing. I have no doubt in my mind that they will be falling into the the three evil paths in their next life. These medications only work for a while but mental illnesses get worse with age. So the dosage of medicine has to keep increasing and let me tell you, you will not feel good when you take the strengthened medicine. These hospitals that they put mental health patients in are comparable to jails. Some people are even placed into solitary confinement. The environment makes the patients very angry and the staff of these hospitals solve these problems by giving them a shot that will retard your mind completely. This mental health treatment stuff is a scam designed to make money off of your insurance. None of you have to believe me, but you have been informed.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 6

    I think there might be disaster mental health facilities, but the ones I have been to were good to excellent. And I think not getting treatment for a severe mental health problem is only slightly better idea than going to a disaster facility. If you have a mental illness and trusted good health care system near you then I would recommend treating your illness. And for meds you can choose if you want to take them or not, but trying them out for a couple of months is imho a good idea. I would research how successful the medicines are for long term (generally) and how hard it is to ween off them if you change your mind. The meds I take were effective for me and before taking I read about how successful they were on average. They would probably make me have terrible withdrawal afterwards if I tried to quit them since I've taken them over 10 years. But it varies disease to disease, medicine to medicine, and person to person. An example of a medicine I would not recommend long term is anti anxiety medicines like valium. The reason is that they produce large withdrawal when you take them a long time and try to cut back. And they work less and less due to tolerance. In that way they are like cigarettes where they stop working, but now they are addiction. But my anti-psychotic meds have saved me a lot of grief from confusion, hallucinations, delusions, etc..

    Shoshin1
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    None of you have to believe me, but you have been informed.

    ...of your opinion ;)

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 6

    This is not an opinion. This is a fact. These drugs do not work. It is no surprise that you don't believe me. Answer this question, why does the United States have such a high percentage of people who are depressed? Why are children turning to drug dealers instead of relying on doctors? And here is another question, what is the purpose of religion?

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    This is not an opinion. This is a fact. These drugs do not work. It is no surprise that you don't believe me. Answer this question, why does the United States have such a high percentage of people who are depressed? Why are children turning to drug dealers instead of relying on doctors? And here is another question, what is the purpose of religion?

    I don't know, I don't live in the United States.

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    You don't live in the U.S., okay. It also seems that you don't understand the purpose of religion. I know my words may sound harsh and narrow minded, but you have to understand that I am speaking gentle words. If spoke in a nice way, but tried to decieve you then those would be harsh words. I have a lot of respect for you because you are a nice person.
    The purpose of religion is to make people happy. It seems that we have forgotten this and are relying on drugs instead of Buddhism. This is a big mistake. Religion as it exists today, is only used for control. You should remember what I have said here. Although my capacity may not be high, I can see my enemies very clearly. This is the Latter Day of the Law. This is a defiled age. A lot of evil people inhabit this world and last thing they want you to read is the Lotus Sutra. Evil friends are more dangerous than mad elephants.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    You don't live in the U.S., okay. It also seems that you don't understand the purpose of religion. I know my words may sound harsh and narrow minded, but you have to understand that I am speaking gentle words. If spoke in a nice way, but tried to decieve you then those would be harsh words. I have a lot of respect for you because you are a nice person.
    The purpose of religion is to make people happy. It seems that we have forgotten this and are relying on drugs instead of Buddhism. This is a big mistake. Religion as it exists today, is only used for control. You should remember what I have said here. Although my capacity may not be high, I can see my enemies very clearly. This is the Latter Day of the Law. This is a defiled age. A lot of evil people inhabit this world and last thing they want you to read is the Lotus Sutra. Evil friends are more dangerous than mad elephants.

    In general I agree with what you say....I can only suggest you work on your method of delivery :)

    Shoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    Hmmm are you happy @Omar067 ?

    Jeroen
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    Right now, I'm not happy. I'm becoming more emotional these days. How could I be happy when others are suffering.

    BunksShoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    @Omar067

    So what can you do to improve your own mental well being ?

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 6

    In order to improve your own mental well being, you must practice Buddhism, you must study Buddhism, and you must have faith. The amount of time you practice and study is a manifestation of your faith. A person and there environment are not two distinct things. If your mind is pure, your land is pure. If your mind is impure, then your land is impure. Whether you live in a good environment, or a bad one is solely dependent on your mind. Because we are one with are environment, we can not be happy when others are suffering. An ordinary person is a Buddha, and a Buddha is an ordinary person. I don't know the cause of suffering, but if I have to guess, the cause would be delusion. That is why studying is important. When you learn from a good teacher, delusion will be gradually rooted out of your mind and you will obtain the correct view on life. Once you gain some knowledge then you have to share it with those who are suffering in order to help them. When ignorance has left our minds completely, we will become Buddhas.

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    To further explain things, we born around those who we have formed similar karma with in our past lives. That is why you have people that say that,"The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree." If we want to know what state of mind we are in, and what causes we have made in the past, than look at the present. If we want to know where we will be in the future, look at the causes you are making now. The Sutra's preached before the Lotus Sutra are not useless. They are only useless when people do not base their understanding of the those Sutra's in light of what has been revealed in the Lotus Sutra. Since none of the Sutra's contain the true teaching, then they can offer no way to enlightenment. Accepting and practicing these Sutra's will not get us to enlightenment. I know you guys won't believe that, but if you read the Lotus Sutra you will believe it if you are persons' of wisdom. People who have wisdom are simply people who have faith in the sutra. When Buddha told people that he had not revealed the truth in any other sutra, some people left the assembly. These people were arrogant voice hearers and Bodhisattva's who were attached to the expedient and provisional teachings. They probably have experience intense sufferings of the three evil paths by act against the only person in the world who could help them. That is why it is said that you shouldn't teach this sutra to people who are without wisdom.

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    @Omar067
    May you eventually find "contentment" with the path you have chosen...

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    I've already found contentment. My life has changed completely, and it is getting better. How can you guys call yourselves Buddhist if you don't believe in the words of Shakyamuni Buddha who expounded the teachings. The more I see all you guys' responses, the more my faith grows. The Buddha and Nichiren's predictions were one hundred percent true. You guys are so caught up in the Theravada and provisional Mahayana schools that you can't even use your logic.

    Bunks
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    May you eventually find "true contentment" with the path you have chosen...@Omar067...

    Bunks
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 6

    I can't find true contentment in life because of people like you who refuse to give up disbelief in the Buddha's formost teaching. I am however, on the path to supreme enlightenment. I won't get it in this lifetime, but because I have faith I will be born in the presence of a teacher who will help me gain enlightenment. This is explained in the Lotus Sutra. You however, on the path that will lead you to the three evil paths. A person who simply chants Nam Myoho Renge Kyo will never fall into the three evil paths. People who uphold mere name of the sutra will inch their way to enlightenment. This is explained the sutra. Here is what the Buddha has to say.

    The second volume of the Lotus Sutra says, “If a person fails to have faith but instead slanders this sutra . . . When his life comes to an end he will enter the Avīchi hell.” And in the “Never Disparaging” chapter in the seventh volume, it says, “For a thousand kalpas they underwent great suffering in the Avīchi hell.”
    In the Nirvana Sutra, we read: “If a person separates himself from good friends, refuses to listen to the correct teaching, and instead embraces evil teachings, then as a result he will sink down into the Avīchi hell, where the size of his body will become eighty-four thousand yojanas in total length and breadth.”55

  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran

    It seems to me that if one is being judgmental of others one is still a long way from finding the true path. For quite a few different reasons.

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    The Nirvana Sutra states: “If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching. But if he ousts the destroyer of the Law, reproaches him, or punishes him, then he is my disciple and a true voice-hearer.”

  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran

    There used to be a mental disorder in the DSM (Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) called religious disorder, which categorised those who were caught in a fever of righteousness…

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    Do you believe in the words of the Buddha? If you don't, believe in the sutra's, but call yourself a Buddhist, then your confusion is great indeed.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    The Nirvana Sutra states: “If even a good monk sees someone destroying the teaching and disregards him, failing to reproach him, to oust him, or to punish him for his offense, then you should realize that that monk is betraying the Buddha’s teaching. But if he ousts the destroyer of the Law, reproaches him, or punishes him, then he is my disciple and a true voice-hearer.”

    So your mission on here appears to be to tell anyone who questions or criticises your tradition that they’re going to burn in hell?

    You must be a riot at parties…

    SuraShine
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    I can't find true contentment in life because of people like you who refuse to give up disbelief in the Buddha's formost teaching. I am however, on the path to supreme enlightenment. I won't get it in this lifetime, but because I have faith I will be born in the presence of a teacher who will help me gain enlightenment. This is explained in the Lotus Sutra. You however, on the path that will lead you to the three evil paths. A person who simply chants Nam Myoho Renge Kyo will never fall into the three evil paths. People who uphold mere name of the sutra will inch their way to enlightenment. This is explained the sutra. Here is what the Buddha has to say.

    The second volume of the Lotus Sutra says, “If a person fails to have faith but instead slanders this sutra . . . When his life comes to an end he will enter the Avīchi hell.” And in the “Never Disparaging” chapter in the seventh volume, it says, “For a thousand kalpas they underwent great suffering in the Avīchi hell.”
    In the Nirvana Sutra, we read: “If a person separates himself from good friends, refuses to listen to the correct teaching, and instead embraces evil teachings, then as a result he will sink down into the Avīchi hell, where the size of his body will become eighty-four thousand yojanas in total length and breadth.”55

    I really do wish you well @Omar067....Stay safe...

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    That seems to be the Buddha's mission as well. Like I said before, stop relying on ordinary people who's teachings don't agree with the words of the Buddha.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    That seems to be the Buddha's mission as well. Like I said before, stop relying on ordinary people who's teachings don't agree with the words of the Buddha.

    As I mentioned in another post mate, you need to chill out a bit…

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 6

    I've suffered a lot in life and I am not about to turn back now that I have made a little progress. I really don't know what I am getting myself into. I actually do know what I am getting myself into. I'm going to be beat down and have to suffer some abuse from people who don't understand Buddhism. The sutra already predicted what will happen to people who embrace the sutra. However, I am not going back to the life I used to live. I will endure it all. But I can't achieve anything with paper thin fate so I will return to studying.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    I've suffered a lot in life and I am not about to turn back now that I have made a little progress. I really don't know what I am getting myself into. I actually do what I am getting myself into. I'm going to be beat down and have to suffer some abuse from people who don't understand Buddhism. The sutra already predicted what will happen to people who embrace the sutra. However, I am not going back to the life I used to live. I will endure it all. But I can't achieve anything with paper thin fate so I will return to studying.

    Good luck to you man.

    One thing I like about this forum is that there are people on here from all walks of life, all different countries and following all different traditions.

    And it works because, generally speaking, we respect each other’s different points of views and different beliefs.

    What are you hoping to achieve by posting on here?

    Shoshin1
  • JeroenJeroen Do it with a smile Netherlands Veteran
    edited July 6

    I once came across a saying of Osho’s, that “one should learn from the Buddha, but not be a Buddhist.” That made sense to me, we have a unique perspective on the world after all, and must learn from within our uniqueness.

    Another saying that made sense to me is that we should look to our own enlightenment before trying to help others with theirs. Teaching is a difficult and tricky job, especially if the student is not open to learning from you.

    A big hug for you, Omar. I hope things go well for you.

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    I think I have already posted my reasons on different threads. I'm spreading knowledge of the Buddhist teachings because that is what the Buddha told us to do. Now if I'm narrow minded, then there is no one more narrow minded than Shakyamuni Buddha himself. I'm using his words to defend my actions. Even the Buddha was persecuted during his life by lots of the non Buddhist at the time. He didn't begrudge his life.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Omar067 said:
    I think I have already posted my reasons on different threads. I'm spreading knowledge of the Buddhist teachings because that is what the Buddha told us to do. Now if I'm narrow minded, then there is no one more narrow minded than Shakyamuni Buddha himself. I'm using his words to defend my actions. Even the Buddha was persecuted during his life by lots of the non Buddhist at the time. He didn't begrudge his life.

    Yeah, that’s good.
    But a lot of the people on here consider themselves Buddhists too (including me). We just follow a different tradition to you.
    And that’s ok isn’t it?

  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    You guys are good people, but I keep telling you to rely on the Buddha and not on ordinary men. It doesn't matter if the person can do miracles or how eminent the person is. If his teachings don't agree with the Sutra's then it can not be called Buddhism. This is what the sutra says about this issue.

    There will be many ignorant people / who will curse and speak ill of us / and will attack us with swords and staves.” The second type: “In that evil age there will be monks / with perverse wisdom and hearts that are fawning and crooked / who will suppose they have attained what they have not attained, / being proud and boastful in heart.” And the third type: “Or there will be forest-dwelling monks / wearing clothing of patched rags and living in retirement, / who will claim they are practicing the true way, / despising and looking down on all humankind. / Greedy for profit and support, / they will preach the Law to white-robed laymen / and will be respected and revered by the world / as though they were arhats who possess the six transcendental powers. . . .”

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    Sounds like a pretty narrow minded Sutra that you speak of.

    But whatever rocks your boat….

This discussion has been closed.