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Paradox! Is impermanence permanent?

DaozenDaozen Veteran
edited July 2011 in Philosophy
If all phenomena are marked by impermanence, does that not mean that impermanence itself is permanent?

How to resolve this paradox?

Namaste

Comments

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Only on Thursdays. :)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    All logic ends in a paradox. Its true - really.
  • @Daozen

    This is being contemplated here as well. So far, it seems to be one of them.

    Isn't paradox the impermanence of views bound to the endless equivocal contradictions of other world views?

    Respectfully:
    SimpleWitness
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited July 2011
    All logic ends in a paradox. Its true - really.
    @mindgate -- Is it then logical to infer that illogic is the only thing that makes any sense?

    More seriously, though -- finding the paradoxical nature of things is OK for intellectual discussion. But the intellect has little or no chance of providing a credible peace in this lifetime. That job is best left to practice.
  • not really a paradox

    + x - = -

    i.e., a negative multiplied by a positive equals a negative

    similarly

    permanence x permanence = permanence

    permanence x impermanence = impermanence

    impermanence x impermanence = permanence

    :D
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    edited July 2011
    All logic ends in a paradox. Its true - really.
    OK if you say so :) Do you have a reference or argument for this very interesting claim?
    Isn't paradox the impermanence of views bound to the endless equivocal contradictions of other world views?
    So all paradox is a symptom of having views, not an ultimate truth of the world itself, is that what you mean?
    More seriously, though -- finding the paradoxical nature of things is OK for intellectual discussion. But the intellect has little or no chance of providing a credible peace in this lifetime. That job is best left to practice.
    I love it when you get serious Genkaku :)
    not really a paradox

    + x - = -

    i.e., a negative multiplied by a positive equals a negative

    similarly

    permanence x permanence = permanence

    permanence x impermanence = impermanence

    impermanence x impermanence = permanence

    :D
    An interesting idea but I'm not quite following. Can you explain 'permanence x permanence = permanence' (and the other 2) in full sentences?

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2011
    All logic ends in a paradox. Its true - really.
    OK if you say so :) Do you have a reference or argument for this very interesting claim?
    I wouldn't say that all logic ends in paradox, but sometimes it does:

    image
  • Okay, ouch....
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited July 2011
    As many Thai Buddhists would say to the OP, "I tink you tink too mutt."
  • I think there's something about this on the MahaParinirvana sutra!!!
  • If all phenomena are marked by impermanence, does that not mean that impermanence itself is permanent?

    How to resolve this paradox?

    Namaste
    No not at all:)

    The only things that are imperminent are things that are contingent, that is, thights that were not and might not have been. This means everything in the universe, or any possible universe, but it does not mean that things that always are are impermanent, or things that are necessary in all possible worlds.

    That five is greater than four is not contingent, it is not subject to impermanence.

    That all things that are will not be is also not subject to impermanence.

    There is no paradox:)


  • Ther is no paradox ... only impermanence
  • very good question, Albert Camus said the ultimate metaphor for life was the tale of Sysiphus (might be spelling) he was commanded by the gods to roll a stone up a mountain, and when it rolled back down, he repeated this again and again.
  • Hi girlslikesam ... yeah, Sisyphus was found in both Roman and Greek mythology, from memory.
  • Words. Just words.
  • Yeah - and words can lead us to understanding - sometimes, online especially - words are all we have. ( sounds like a Bee Gees song - lol ).
  • Impermanence is not a thing. Impermanence is a way of describing conditioned phenomena. That's like saying Dryness is Wet. No dryness can't be dry or wet. Impermanence is neither permanent nor impermanent.
  • IMHO the proper view for meditation is prasangika view - absolute truth is free from extremes, beyond thought and expression. Thought eventually becomes paradoxical when it crosses its boundaries.
  • trilaksana is part of samsara, not nirvana...
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Impermanence is not a thing. Impermanence is a way of describing conditioned phenomena. That's like saying Dryness is Wet. No dryness can't be dry or wet. Impermanence is neither permanent nor impermanent.
    Moisture is the essence of wetness:

  • "... and wetness is the essence of beauty."

    I love Zoolander.
  • Yeah - and words can lead us to understanding - sometimes, online especially - words are all we have. ( sounds like a Bee Gees song - lol ).
    Words symbolize thoughts; thoughts symbolize self; self symbolizes mind; mind symbolizes endless perception.

    None of the above are eternal being.

    :)

    SimpleWitness
  • edited August 2011
    @Daozen

    Well, will any individual's view of the world encompass the whole world?

    Two arguments may conflict and still be true in their proper context.

    We may all experience the world as an event in existence, yet, do we all perceive it as the same occurrence? Do you want to change the world? If the world is not bound to the confines of our individual views, should we think that it will be done? If the world is too sacred to change because of how cryptic it is by the myriad if world views, how does one suppose one specific world view will encompass the whole world?

    The art of the paradox is when awareness is switched from one view to another when it becomes appropriate: "If its works deepen upon awareness it is certain; yet, if its works dissipate upon awareness it was just another perception." This is done by neither the self nor the other, but to be as a witness to all of it.

    :)

    Respectfully yours, Daozen:

    SimpleWitness
    All logic ends in a paradox. Its true - really.
    OK if you say so :) Do you have a reference or argument for this very interesting claim?
    Isn't paradox the impermanence of views bound to the endless equivocal contradictions of other world views?
    So all paradox is a symptom of having views, not an ultimate truth of the world itself, is that what you mean?

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Impermanence is a description of change, which affects all temporary things (as far as we can and have experienced). It isn't a "thing" itself, and it is only things (phenomena, etc.) that are said to be impermanent. It is an experiential reality, along the same lines as not-self (which is near with interdependence and relativity).

    It may be possible that change will cease in the future, if there is a driving force to change that can/will stop functioning.

    It may be possible that there will be no things left in the future to change.

    As it stands, any thing or experience has impermanence as a property. :shrug:
  • trilaksana is part of samsara, not nirvana...
  • Only conditioned phenomenon are impermanent. Conditioned phenomenon are only labled they are not real. They are dukkha when relied on.0
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited August 2011
    There is only one universal law that is unchanging, and that is that all things change and are impermanent. Thats my understanding of Buddhas teachings anyway. :D

  • The end of impermanence is Nibbana. That is how even impermanence itself can be impermanent.
  • The end of impermanence is Nibbana. That is how even impermanence itself can be impermanent.
    How can that be? Without impermanence, nothing exists - or rather, things can only exist in a frozen state. Doesn't sound like Nibbana to me ...

  • Perhaps there isn't a word developed to describe things in relation to permanence and impermanence yet.
  • Form arising out of emptiness, when conditions are right, giving the illusion of permanence. But easy to see when I pay attention, all is just temporary coming and going. A never ending dance of impermanence.

    Yea I guess impermanence is permanent. :)
  • impermanence can not nor will ever be impermanent. The only "true" constant in this Universe is change, making nothing permanent but change..
  • The end of impermanence is Nibbana. That is how even impermanence itself can be impermanent.
    How can that be? Without impermanence, nothing exists - or rather, things can only exist in a frozen state. Doesn't sound like Nibbana to me ...

    You are probably right, but Nibanna IS freedom from samsara right? The freedom from the conditioned? I understand it is often described as neither permanence nor impermanence, but in my view that would include the end of impermanence as well right?
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    edited August 2011
    You are probably right, but Nibanna IS freedom from samsara right? The freedom from the conditioned? I understand it is often described as neither permanence nor impermanence, but in my view that would include the end of impermanence as well right?
    The way I understand it, Nibbana means extinction of one's karmic seeds. But an enlightened being must still live in this world, with all its impermanence, at least until they die, at which time they enter para-nibbana, the final extinction. But even then, their actions and memories will live on in others, so does it ever end? I don't know, but I don't think so. Hence, the paradoxical persistence of change: everything changes except change itself!

    Namaste

  • FelinoFelino Portugal New

    Impermanence permaneces as long as there is the idea of permanence...

This discussion has been closed.