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An Evening with a Jehovah's Witness

novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
edited November 2011 in Faith & Religion
Last night, I had a four-hour long conversation with a woman who was a Jehovah's Witness.

Everything that I said to her was of Buddhist philosophy, but I didn't tell her that I was a Buddhist because I wanted to see if we could have an unbiased conversation under the philosophy of cosmic equality; I refer to cosmic equality being the concept of even though two people may disagree or have differing views, there's no reason why they couldn't sit at a dinner table and discuss their differences as equals. For me to tell her that I was a Buddhist, to put a label on my belief-structure, would be to subconsciously draw a line between our beliefs, instead of talking at the dinner table as equal human beings. I thought of that conversation as an experiment to prove that we're all fighting for virtually same things; I was proven right.

I love that there wasn't a single thing that I said to her that she dismissed or truly disagreed with; we may have had differing opinions based off of differing logical approaches to situations, but we each had virtually the same exact conclusion at the end of every discussed concept. She gave me some reading material, and I told her that it would be my honor to read every page of each of the books that she gave me, out of my thirst for knowledge, my respect for her, and my respect for her faith.

At the end of the conversation, she was *glowing* with positive energy. Her daughter (my girlfriend, who knew that I was a Buddhist, but also stayed silent) said: "I think a lot of people don't actually understand what a Buddhist is. I didn't. I think if you explained it she would understand.

She REALLY likes you and really enjoyed talking to you. She's talking.to me about it now."

I replied: "Many westerners don't. Precisely why I didn't tell her at first. I wanted her to see the heart of my philosophy before writing it off as eastern mysticism that she didn't understand."

Overall, it was an amazing conversation, and I proved something that night about the nature of "right intent" and "right view" being universal.

Comments

  • "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
  • My girlfriend disagreed with the quote above ^ and said: "Because that quote pretty much says (relating to last night and your status) that you can have a discussion with someone but not accept what they're saying... and I think you agreed with most of what was said, so that WOULD be accepting, right?"

    I replied: "Very true, but I found the relative link to agree on without actually becoming a Jehovah's Witness, myself."

    In essence, I entertained JW philosophy, without becoming one myself...all without offending the other person; I actually enlightening and emotionally UPLIFTED the other person. Evidence to support that we CAN all get along.
  • In conclusion, when we put labels on things, we divide them. We have a name to call them other than recognizing them as a fellow human being. When one were to say that another who conflicts or disagrees is evil and should be "removed" from the equation of humanity, that's when war starts. If we were to remove labels, titles, and divisional lines that separate beliefs instead of finding the universal truths that exist in each of them and uniting under that, understanding that we're all human and bleed the same color...I deduct that world peace can be attained, regardless of whatever religion you may or may not be.
  • This is neat. I agree with the fact that once a label is slapped on there is a line created. Once I "converted" to buddhism, none of my "christian" family ever has asked me how I feel or differ from thier set beliefs. They just assume its eastern mystisism, and if they pray hard enough for me I will see the error of my ways and rebuke this lifestyle. The funny thing is is that I cant even get one of them to sit at a table with me and talk about it. To discuss all the similarities that we share. Once a label was applied, they already knew everything about me. Its sad but true. I love that you did this, and hope someday I could try this out. The truth is, as many JW have come to my door. I still know little about the pratice.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2011
    It sounds like you handled the situation with extreme patience and respect, but then, you had the motivation to, since it was your girlfriend's mother. When I've taken that approach with JW's, I've found they interpret it their own way, and only see my interest in discussion as an opening for them to convert me. This turns them into pests, causing them to drop by at every opportunity. Funny how they always expect to get invited in. I always talk to them through the screen door. They never pick up on those types of not-so-subtle cues. And they always drive onto my driveway and park there, as if it's their house, instead of parking along the curb. Strangely presumptuous people. They have boundary issues.
  • I know a bit about Jehovah's Witnesses. I think the disturbing aspect of their religion are the Elders, Disfellowshipping (which tears families apart), and the blood issue.

    The Blood issue, for example, is political, rather than spiritual; it was first enforced in 1945 when giving blood in the US was seen as patriotic; and JWs don't like patriotism, so banned giving and receiving blood. They also banned organ transplants, people died, and they eventually retracted that one. But many JWs have died because they refused blood transplants.

    Disfellowshipping is where a disgraced JW (who has lost his/her faith for example) is cut off from their family; no-one will talk or interact with them, and for someone who has been shielded from 'Worldly People', like ourselves, this is sometimes a terrifying prospect for them. It has led to suicides.

    There's also the many failed prophesies of the End of Wicknedness (aka the End of the World (for us)); and the strong belief that we're at the End of Times, which means they often discourage their children from further education once they leave compulsory education.

    Oh, on a personal note, I have helped a JW recover from alcoholism. The JW Elders disfellowshipped him; alcoholism is a sin and is seen as gluttony; and he (and his wife) had quite a struggle, not only with his alcohol problem, but readjusting to the 'normal world'.

    However, saying all that, the average JW I know and have met have been lovely people.
  • Why don't they like patriotism?
    The 'normal world'? Do they create a community unto themselves? Sounds like a cult.
  • Why don't they like patriotism?
    The 'normal world'? Do they create a community unto themselves? Sounds like a cult.
    They are usually seen as such. They have headquarters in New York, and they are kind of a community unto themselves...Even legal issues are hard to deal with because they're discouraged to report crimes occurring within their...'fold'.

    They denounce any political involvement, including voting. Discouragement of any outside influence is the purpose, I believe.

    Jehovah's Witnesses Wiki, cites good sources.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Why don't they like patriotism?
    The 'normal world'? Do they create a community unto themselves? Sounds like a cult.
    No, JWs live spread out amongst 'Worldly People', but they go to church many times per week, are strongly encouraged to only socialise within their own kind, and active members (I can't remember exactly what they're called) have to complete so many hours per week of ministry work; and they also have to submit 'field service reports' detailing their hours and type of work they do to get new converts.

    If they're not pulling their weight, they may get a visit from the Elders. So they do live in the 'open', but in a sense, live in quite a hermetically sealed JW environment. In fact one of the reasons why I know so many is because a lot of window cleaners are JWs (I'm a window cleaner), because in this way they can control their working environment, and they do not have to closely associate with 'Worldly People'. I reckon about 50% of the window cleaners in my area are JWs.

    Some of this may sound claustrophobic and controlling, but a JW I discussed this with did not think so.

    I'm open to all religions; but there are many areas about JW doctrine that I disagree with, particularly the blood doctrine, which I strongly disagree with, and see as utterly pointless. Acts 15 in the Bible is the one they usually cite as justifying their stance, but when the issue is looked at in full, you can see it's political, not spiritual.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Even legal issues are hard to deal with because they're discouraged to report crimes occurring within their...'fold'.
    Yes, it's JW rules that crimes, particularly stuff such as allegations of child sexual abuse, should first be reported to the Elders.

    This is quite wrong.

    It's obvious it should be reported to the police, and not left to Elders to decide whether it is necessary to inform the police (or not).

  • As an exJehovah's Witness I can tell you that they are trained in how they deal with people, to pretend to somewhat agree to get you on their side, and then they give you magazines and next will return with more and want you to study the Bible with them. It is all a game.
  • We were Adventists - when Jehovas would knock on our door, my Dad would invite them in (to my mother's chagrin), serve them cookies and tea, and draw the baffled proselytizers into debates on the finer points of millenist theology.

    In my town these days, they seem to keep a much lower profile than formerly. Less pushy as well; however, that's here in the city. From reports from relatives up in the rural north, it sounds like their campaigns are still pretty vigorous.
  • The JW's sound like a cult, judging by what I read here.
  • The woman I spoke to was not a cultist. She was a compassionate and understanding individual who didn't force her beliefs on me.
  • ....aka, your possible future Mother-In-Law.

    It is a wise man indeed who can learn early on to get along with his mother-in-law . And I'm sure if, on the off chance, your girlfriend reads your post, she will think you are the most wonderful boyfriend ever! : ) Lol

    Kwan Kev
  • The JW's sound like a cult, judging by what I read here.
    It's not easy to define what a 'cult' is, but generally a good test is to find out what happens should you decide to leave the organisation, and what happens is pretty negative. You will be cut off from JW friends and family; they will not talk to you; it's called 'disfellowshipping'. And since they're discouraged to closely associate with 'Worldly People', they can feel pretty lost and isolated after being part of such a close knit congregation.

    There are a wealth of ex JW websites to provide support for disfellowshipped members.

    But as I said earlier, the JWs I have met have been lovely people.

  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    I've heard that they've got some sort of manual on how to deal with different faiths, people's answers, etc - but maybe it's just an urban legend..?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2011
    The woman I spoke to was not a cultist. She was a compassionate and understanding individual who didn't force her beliefs on me.
    It sounds like she treated you differently than she treats the people she's sent to proselytize to. As I said before, I think you (and she as well, I gather) handled the situation very well, and very patiently. Not everyone has 4 hours to spend in one sitting with a proselytizer, though. In your case, it was much more than that, it was a getting-to-know-each-other session as well, for the sake of the potential family relationship. So we can't really compare this to the typical JW encounter, or expect a similar outcome if we only open up and discuss from a place of respect (I've tried it. They don't hear what the other person's saying, they come to the door with a programmed spiel. A different theme each time.)

    My concern is that they're told to report child molestation and other crimes to elders within the congregation, rather than to the authorities. That's a red flag indicating a cult, to me. But I'm glad you got along so well with your girlfriend's mother, novawolf. It sounds like you both made a big effort to hear each other and respect each other's views, and to meet in the middle, to find commonalities. This is how the world should be, ideally Congratulations.

  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited November 2011
    I completely understand and resonate with your reservations toward the sect, however, whatever you may disagree with has no bearing on a single person from it. To say that all JWs are close-minded cultists is like saying all black people are thieves; stereotypes only have a grain of truth.

    Stereotypes exist for every religion, even Buddhists.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Annoying JWs have been to my doorstep as well, but it doesn't mean that I would judge them as a whole for their beliefs or methods, even if I disagreed with them on my own moral level such as you do.

    To write them off because of a small percentage of their population would knock on your doorstep with a spiel is for them to write off anything a Buddhist would say as evil eastern mysticism.

    The fact that she is a potential mother-in-law is irrelevant; I would defend the universal rights of every religion, regardless of my circumstance, even if I personally disagree with them.
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Not only as a Buddhist, but as a human being, my "religion" is compassion; all people deserve to be heard, however annoying they may be to me on a personal level.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I was just saying I learned something here, and they sound like a cult. I've encountered very few, so I can't speak about all of them. But Thao made a sweeping statement, from her perspective as a former insider, did you read her post? (I'm not sure why you're picking on me.)
    But I don't know about "all people deserve to be heard". People who have an agenda of tuning out your beliefs (which wasn't the case in the experience you presented here, but that seems like a special circumstance) and subverting your beliefs to replace them with their own beliefs don't necessarily deserve to be heard. People interested in a genuine open-minded exchange do deserve to be heard. When they come to the door with their leaflets and Bibles, they're selling something. That's just a fact. I'm not interested in what they're selling, that's all.

    Maybe if I met one in a social situation, we could talk. I've never met a JW in such a context, and going by what other people have said about them, I think I'm not likely to. But if I did, I wouldn't have any reason to judge them, I'd chat with them as I would with anyone else at a social event. On the other hand, when they're "on the job", and their job is to convert me to their religion, I'll pass, thank you.

    Would you have spent 4 hours with a stranger coming to your door with the sole intent of converting you to their religion?
  • novaw0lfnovaw0lf Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I was just saying I learned something here, and they sound like a cult. I've encountered very few, so I can't speak about all of them. But Thao made a sweeping statement, from her perspective as a former insider, did you read her post? (I'm not sure why you're picking on me.)
    I'm not picking on you; I just can't purely argue with Thao because he speaks from personal experience. However, Thao is just one voice with reasons to have fallen from the grace of that religion; he does not represent the majority who still are. Don't let just one opinion or story change your entire viewpoint of an entire group of people.
    As an exJehovah's Witness I can tell you that they are trained in how they deal with people, to pretend to somewhat agree to get you on their side, and then they give you magazines and next will return with more and want you to study the Bible with them. It is all a game.
    That's quite possibly true, but whatever game they may try to play with their social engineering has no affect on my personal resolve. I'm not worried about self-preservation, or even their intent; I look at these situations not as an opportunity to run away or close people out, but as my opportunity to encourage enlightenment and more open-minded to thinking in a non-conflicting way by asking non-offensive questions that test their own faith. I state what I believe, and present to them in a way that challenges their own belief structure, wording my sentences differently for everyone depending on what I perceive their level of intellect to be (even if it's higher than my own). So, at the end of the conversation, regardless of whether they are more of a JW or less of one: they are 1% wiser from the experience.

    But I don't know about "all people deserve to be heard". People who have an agenda of tuning out your beliefs (which wasn't the case in the experience you presented here, but that seems like a special circumstance) and subverting your beliefs to replace them with their own beliefs don't necessarily deserve to be heard. People interested in a genuine open-minded exchange do deserve to be heard. When they come to the door with their leaflets and Bibles, they're selling something. That's just a fact. I'm not interested in what they're selling, that's all.
    I believe that all people do deserve to be heard, even extremists like Nazis. I could completely disagree with their entire argument, but I understand that they think the way that they do for a reason; we are all but products of our lineage and experience. This means, even people like murderers are not outside of the realm of compassion; people like that need more compassion than anyone.

    Even if they are trying to sell me something, that's not what I pay attention to; what I pay attention to is that this person is doing what they believe is right for the sake of what they believe to be right. I just assume a position to make sure that they feel genuine about their convictions (whatever they may be), and not living their lives by regurgitated social programming. I make sure that if they must sell or play a game, that they do it because they are the master of their own reality and this is a choice that they're making because they have faith in their beliefs...not because they are a drone doing what other people would tell them to do. I encourage people to live.

    If they are a drone, then I encourage them to snap out of it; if they are not, then I enjoy the game of social chess.


    Would you have spent 4 hours with a stranger coming to your door with the sole intent of converting you to their religion?
    Yes.

    I would spend 4 hours (if I had the time window available) to speak to anyone who needed help or sought anything that I could give them for any reason.

    Just like I spent the time necessary to write and edit this very post.



  • This is from the latest copy of the Watchtower, a publication by the Jehova's Witnesses:
    *** w11 7/15 p. 16 par. 6 Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings? ***
    How can we protect ourselves against false teachers? The Bible’s counsel regarding how to deal with them is clear. (Read Romans 16:17; 2 John 9-11.) “Avoid them,” says God’s Word. Other translations render that phrase “turn away from them,” “keep away from them,” and “stay away from them!” There is nothing ambiguous about that inspired counsel. Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease. You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings. (1 Tim. 6:3, 4) Jehovah, the Great Physician, tells us to avoid contact with them. We know what he means, but are we determined to heed his warning in all respects?
    It's talking about shunning ex JWs - and this includes people who've just lost their faith - and it compares them to the "mentally diseased".

    Shunning breaks up families and has caused suicides. I've a friend in A.A. who was disfellowshipped and shunned because of his alcoholism; that's classed as a sin since they say it's 'greed'.
  • I prefer the Jehovah's bystanders

    They see whats going on but dont want
    to get involved

    hihi
    Nollaig shona
  • Good read. There was a lot I didn't know about JW's.

    There is a JW church a block from my house. Once in a while a JW would knock on our door. They always sounded nice, but something about their body language and demeanor seem "off" to me. It always seemed suspicious to me that a church, any church would recruit so actively, or at all. I used to think it's the other way around, that a church is a place that people seek out for spiritual guidance.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I've heard that they've got some sort of manual on how to deal with different faiths, people's answers, etc - but maybe it's just an urban legend..?

    My former church (Seventh Day Adventist) has something like this - I believe in our case, it's a booklet for each [offending] religion, lol - like, "How to Refute Catholicism," and "How to Refute Buddhism," etc. The title isn't quite that blatant - it may be something like "Witnessing to Buddhists." I'll try to find a copy - I remember seeing them in the ABC (Adventist Book Center) last I went.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I prefer the Jehovah's bystanders

    They see whats going on but dont want
    to get involved

    hihi
    Nollaig shona

    Ha :) Nollaig shona daoibhse! At this time of year I'm a Buddheo-Christian, lol.

  • JW's come to my neighbourhood now and then, and it wouldn't really bother me except that they don't seem to take "no thank you" for an answer. I had a guy stick his foot across my threashold once, as I tried to close the door. Excuse me? Way to give your religion a bad name, and make me want to call the cops at the same time. I have no problem with someone asking me if they can talk to me about (fill in deity here). If I say no, deal with it and move on, period.

    Lots of groups do this, though, not just JWs. A whole branch of my family is southern baptist missionary, so you can imagine what family "visits" are like: "Oh, I like the new living room colour ... let's talk about Jesus now." Ugh.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2011
    @Raven and @still_learning I've noticed similar things when they come calling. They seem to have major boundary issues, and yes, demeanor is a little "off". I was reading about Biblical scholarship when they started coming around, reading Elaine Pagels, and the Gnostic Gospels and so on, so I was interested in discussing with them. (Needless to say, this encouraged them greatly.) But I noticed that they would talk about what the Bible said about this or that, and then they'd point to the passage in their Bible, but the passage in question didn't accord with their interpretation at all. They were reading things into it that weren't there. I'd point out, "That's not what this passage says" and they'd say something like, "But that is what it means". Oh well.
  • I was reading about Biblical scholarship when they started coming around, reading Elaine Pagels, and the Gnostic Gospels and so on, so I was interested in discussing with them. (Needless to say, this encouraged them greatly.)
    LOL!!

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