Non-sequiturs/riddles- Buddhist one-upmanship?

Something I've observed and been wondering about, both on this forum and elsewhere. Now, I'm the first to admit I'm far from being enlightened and am still very much feeling my way, so there are likely to be a lot of things I don't "get". I'm ok with this. I do wonder though about the riddles or little nonsensical things some more experienced posters say. It seems almost superior sometimes, to highlight how unevolved the asker of the question is. It seems almost rude.

Am I totally off base here or has anyone else noticed this also?

Something I've observed and been wondering about, both on this forum and elsewhere. Now, I'm the first to admit I'm far from being enlightened and am still very much feeling my way, so there are likely to be a lot of things I don't "get". I'm ok with this. I do wonder though about the riddles or little nonsensical things some more experienced posters say. It seems almost superior sometimes, to highlight how unevolved the asker of the question is. It seems almost rude.

Am I totally off base here or has anyone else noticed this also?

I've noticed it from time to time, but hey - that's just the way things/people are.
the thing to do is to sit up and take notice, if it resonates with you, or take no notice if it does not resonate with you.
Let it go....

outright rudeness and insolence from those who should know better is usually not tolerated - and is more often than not brought to Moderator attention by other members....
but usually, it's not to a level of having to do anything about it....

i noticed this too immediately. To me its puzzling b/c it highlights a tension in buddhism. Free thought and questioning is encouraged while at the same time questions are often met with a sort of mystical dismissal/word play that inhibits discussion. These answers are seldom effective although maybe also rarely profound.

Every group of people in the world has some, for lack of a better word, assholes. Buddhism, and our little sangha, is no different. Perhaps the better question is what did these folks stir up in you? Pema Chodran said it best, even jerks can be a good teacher.

@pyramidsong - let it be known - I am an asshole....

Please don't get your panties in a wad because you don't get the answer you want or an answer isn't apparent or easily understood when you ask. This stuff isn't meant to be instantaneous - you probably need to expend some effort at practice or - at the very least - reading and comprehension. Seriously - there are monks studying and asking questions for years that are encouraged by seemingly cruel masters and fellow monks with non-sequiters - to stop thinking that you can't get it or that getting it will fulfill you or you will unfold in enlightenment in an instant if you can just get someone to explain it. The clinging to your ego through hurt feelings and considering so-called superior or more highly evolved posters arrogance is delusional in that nonsense answers are meant to convey that we are all beginners - read Zen Mind, Beginners Mind by Shunryu Suzuki.

The fact that you are noticing assholes and feeling insulted is a good sign - you are painfully aware of the first noble truth of suffering contained in life - and you are admitting to being driven by misunderstanding and clinging to your story of wounded you. Don't give up. Such awareness should not be wasted in frustration and withdrawal. It is one of the first steps in awakening to who you really are.

federica said:

I've noticed it from time to time, but hey - that's just the way things/people are.
the thing to do is to sit up and take notice, if it resonates with you, or take no notice if it does not resonate with you.
Let it go....

outright rudeness and insolence from those who should know better is usually not tolerated - and is more often than not brought to Moderator attention by other members....
but usually, it's not to a level of having to do anything about it....

The worst insolence found with online Buddhism is the assumption of authority on matters of the Dharma by virtue of being proprietor of, or moderator on, a Buddhist forum. Having been a moderator elsewhere during the last year I saw that one in action. What cheek. It is good to see that it is avoided on this site.

yes, and how do you know the difference between someone just talking over your head or being an asshole, hmm, time experience and a lot of the 'affect' that is so hard to translate in online talking. Isaw one of the videos that jeffrey posted and I realized the text without the presence of the teacher would be a very different experience. Some of the statements could put you off but with his gentle smiling presence it was okay. the whole thing made more sense and there was no sense of being superior.

Now one teacher I had it took many years to realize that some of what he said was that ego, then to realize that ego was rooted in some deep personal loss it took him 5 years to tell me about, and then in the end we ended friends with neither being teacher or student. It seemed he was less lonely with me as his friend instead of his student.

When you hear the asshole, practice compassion for them and yourself

There was once a poster that i hated a lot.

But now i realize what great compaasion they had.

My ignorance and inputations were all i could see.

It's hard to discuss things only based on generalizations in my opinion. But in your original post why do you think the posters are trying to highlight the unevolution? Maybe they are just trying to express an idea? Remember that we are all just random forum dudes and dudettes. We are not buddhist teachers. This place is a paragon of excellence and propriety compared to a 'buddhist' chatroom on aol or yahoo or something. I think this is a pretty good community anyhow.

Is it something like this?

Poster: I have been meditating and I see bright flashes blah blah blah I sit down and then I have thoughts. But I can't stop the thinking blah blach blah

Response: Meditation is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get :)

I'm somewhat kidding around but a little bit serious. If someone said something like that they might just be following the example of others who do the same thing. Buddhism often has original presentations of ideas. For example: MUDDY WATER LET STAND.... CLEAR might seem like a non-sequitar but it is actually an illustration of how if you follow the meditation method to a certain extent that is all you have to do. Like you soak the beans in the water and eventually they are tender. Eventually realizations come (or not) and you just follow the meditation method.

I'm kind of with you, sometimes it just seems like an overly complicated way to explain something for the sake of being overly complicated. I much prefer the beauty of simplicity.

That's right, I don't simplify everything because I'm lazy (well, mostly) I do it because I feel it is the purest way to express your message.

Its tough expressing this thing succinctly - its also abstract so the explanations are abstract - ultimately, if you feel 'unevolved' then its more an issue with how you look at yourself than someone else's input... people can only express themselves the best way they know how - how you take it is up to you...

Be still.
Buddha spoke of impermanence.
this is trivial, you should be in the Now.
Observe the thoughts which are mere fabrications, and all is conjecture.


Is that the that kind of pseudo-wise-cracking-babble you mean? ;) :D

When I first started attending a Zen center, there would sometimes be tea after evening meditation. Where the meditation hall was still and silent as salt, with tea cups in hand, we were free to talk about whatever we liked. It was social hour.

And I had a lot of questions, a lot of uncertainties, so I would ask people at tea about the various concerns I had. Their answers were sometimes confounding. Were they just showing off or was I simply too dense? I don't know, but I do know the situation had the capacity to irritate the hell out of me. I can remember my frustration's coming to a head one night when the thought exploded in my mind, "Why don't you just tell me what I want to know so I can get the fuck out of here?!"

I think there is a built-in presumption that people involved in spiritual endeavor can and will somehow tell the truth. A better presumption, I now think, is that everyone is a liar ... including me. Why is it better? Because it puts the responsibility where it belongs ... on me and my willingness to do precisely what Buddhism has suggested from the get-go ... "find out for yourself."

Is it hard? You bet. That's why they call it "discipline" or "practice."

genkaku said:

"Why don't you just tell me what I want to know so I can get the fuck out of here?!"

Pondering on that alone will take you far!! :) genuinely put a smile on my face...
Bob sang, "Though I try to find the answers to all the questions they ask, though I know its impossible to go living through my past..."

New folks can sense that talk is cheap, that it is easy to sound "Enlightened". If words were the measure of things, the internet would be a Buddha Land. But, if we were to follow someone with quick and wise postings around for a day, in his/her actual life, it wouldn't line up with the impression made by those insightful posts. One thing that Buddhist fora can really benefit from, IMHO, is more vulnerability and less certainty in those who do have lots of experience in practice.

I think we also should notice that we are limited by language in general, the written word, and the internet. It's not really possible to describe accurately and completely the feeling of the sun on your face on a brisk winter afternoon. Words are simply pointers. Experience THIS yourself.

pyramidsong said:

Something I've observed and been wondering about, both on this forum and elsewhere. Now, I'm the first to admit I'm far from being enlightened and am still very much feeling my way, so there are likely to be a lot of things I don't "get". I'm ok with this. I do wonder though about the riddles or little nonsensical things some more experienced posters say. It seems almost superior sometimes, to highlight how unevolved the asker of the question is. It seems almost rude.

Am I totally off base here or has anyone else noticed this also?

MU!

@Iktomi, I see you've moved on from 'in all likelihood' to sounding like a dyspeptic heifer.....

I'll take responsibility for 'in all likelihood'... youre on your own with the dyspeptic heifer tho!! :D

Yall one-upped me. :(

Jeffrey said:

Is it something like this?

Poster: I have been meditating and I see bright flashes blah blah blah I sit down and then I have thoughts. But I can't stop the thinking blah blach blah

Response: Meditation is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get :)

I'm somewhat kidding around but a little bit serious. If someone said something like that they might just be following the example of others who do the same thing. Buddhism often has original presentations of ideas. For example: MUDDY WATER LET STAND.... CLEAR might seem like a non-sequitar but it is actually an illustration of how if you follow the meditation method to a certain extent that is all you have to do. Like you soak the beans in the water and eventually they are tender. Eventually realizations come (or not) and you just follow the meditation method.

Kinda, yeah. And I can see how that helps. I also understand that frustration is a great teacher. I do recognize a good hard look at *why* I'm frustrated can be helpful. I guess sometimes it seems that more experienced practitioners do forget how confusing it is starting out, with a head still full of worldly delusions, and how it might be kinder to respond to a beginner with genuine advice/guidance in ways that are easy to understand. I certainly don't *expect* help, but if you want to, try to make it so it's constructive rather than confusing or alienating for the person asking the question, you know?

Iktomi said:

Yall one-upped me. :(

This is what I mean. You don't have to agree with me. But from this novice's vantage point, making fun isn't helpful.

"I do not like that man. I must get to know him better."
Abraham Lincoln

In internet Buddhism, there are a million teachers and no students. One type of debate I see is two teachers trying desperately to condescend to each other, like arm wrestlers trying to get the weight of their bodies behind their wrists.

It usually goes something like 'you think x because you haven't seen the emptiness of y'... 'Emptiness of y is Hinayana view. I have much metta for your plight, since you clearly have numerous afflictions'... 'You only have metta for your own mind. Why are you talking to yourself? Go beyond this self/other view.'... and so on.

Yet it is quite possible that one of them is right. A reader is unlikely to pay enough attention to find out, however. I don't think words can fight in the way we think they can, and neither do I think there is anything to be won in such a battle.

Debate is different from an argument, and saying metta at the end of a rant doesn't transform it into loving kindness.

@pyramidsong

Noted. I don't know that I'm very guilty of the seemingly condescinding one-upsman ship but certainly my conduct on the forums could use some mindfulness.

Regards.

pyramidsong said:

I do wonder though about the riddles or little nonsensical things some more experienced posters say. It seems almost superior sometimes, to highlight how unevolved the asker of the question is. It seems almost rude.

Am I totally off base here or has anyone else noticed this also?

I have noticed this online, and wondered about it. I also notice that my teachers don't do it. It seems to me that if zingily-timed one-liners were meant to be a helpful tool, they'd use them in the same way.

My teachers do use humor, but it's never felt like barbed humor.

This is simplified yet riddlingly facsinating ;) Much better than poem for most :)

"Ananda, you have told me that you saw
my fist of bright light. How did it take the
form of a fist? How did the fist become
bright? By what means could you see it?”
2:1
Ananda replied, “The body of the Buddha
is born of purity and cleanness, and,
therefore, it assumes the color of Jambu
River gold with deep red hues. Hence, it
shone as brilliant and dazzling as a
precious mountain. It was actually my eyes
that saw the Buddha bend his five-wheeled
fingers to form a fist which was shown to
all of us.” 2:1
The Buddha told Ananda, “Today the
Tathagata will tell you truly that all those
with wisdom are able to achieve
enlightenment through the use of
examples. 2:2
”Ananda, take, for example, my fist: if I
didn’t have a hand, I couldn’t make a fist.
If you didn’t have eyes, you couldn’t see. If
you apply the example of my fist to the
case of your eyes, is the idea the same?”
2:4
Ananda said, “Yes, World Honored One.
Since I can’t see without my eyes, if one
applies the example of the Buddha’s fist to
the case of your eyes, the idea is the
same.” 2:4
The Buddha said to Ananda, “You say it is
the same, but that is not right. Why? If a
person has no hand, his fist is gone
forever. But one who is without eyes is not
entirely devoid of sight. 2:5
”For what reason? Try consulting a blind
man on the street: ‘What do you see?’ 2:5
”Any blind man will certainly answer, ‘Now
I see only black in front of my eyes.
Nothing else meets my gaze.’ 2:5
”The meaning is apparent: if he sees
blackness in front of him, how could his
seeing be considered ‘lost’?” 2:5
Ananda said, “The only thing blind people
see in front of their eyes is blackness. How
can that be seeing?” 2:6
The Buddha said to Ananda, “Is there any
difference between the blackness seen by
blind people, who do not have the use of
their eyes, and the blackness seen by
someone who has the use of his eyes
when he is in a dark room?” 2:6
”So it is, World Honored One. Between the
two kinds of blackness, that seen by the
person in a dark room and that seen by
the blind, there is no difference.” 2:6
”Ananda, if the person without the use of
his eyes who sees only blackness were
suddenly to regain his sight and see all
kinds of forms, and you say it is his eyes
which see, then when the person in a dark
room who sees only blackness suddenly
sees all kinds of forms because a lamp is
lit, you should say it is the lamp which
sees. 2:7
”If it is a case of the lamp seeing, it would
be a lamp endowed with sight - which
couldn’t be called a lamp. And if the lamp
were to do the seeing, how would you be
involved? 2:8
”Therefore you should know that while the
lamp can reveal the forms, it is the eyes,
not the lamp, that do the seeing. And
while the eyes can reveal the forms, the
seeing-nature comes from the mind, not
the eyes.” 2:8
Although Ananda and everyone in the
great assembly had heard what was said,
their minds had not yet understood, and
so they remained silent. Hoping to hear
more of the gentle sounds of the
Tathagata’s teaching, they put their palms
together, purified their minds, and stood
waiting for the Tathagata’s compassionate
instruction. 2:9
Then the World Honored One extended his
tula-cotton webbed bright hand, opened
his five-wheeled fingers, and told Ananda
and the great assembly, “When I first
accomplished the Way I went to the Deer
Park, and for the sake of Ajnatakaundinya
and all five of the bhikshus, as well as for
you of the four-fold assembly, I said, ‘It is
because living beings are impeded by
guest-dust and affliction that they do not
realize Bodhi or become arhats.’ At that
time, what caused you who have now
realized the holy fruit to become
enlightened?” 2:10
Then Ajnatakaundinya arose and said to
the Buddha, “Of the elders now present in
the great assembly, only I received the
name ‘understanding’ because I was
enlightened to the meaning of the word
‘guest-dust’ and realized the fruition. 2:15

AHeerdt said:

yes, and how do you know the difference between someone just talking over your head or being an asshole, hmm,

I think in the riddles dept. it's simply talking-over-our-heads. I haven't noticed any put-downs of people's posts or questions, not like we used to have. Things have improved here a lot in the last year. I write off the cryptic comments as "Zen stuff" (over my head), and move on. Bear in mind, too, that there are more experienced practitioners who have been on the forum awhile, and may have a communication style with each other that unintentionally leaves beginners out. If you feel left out of the loop, you can always ask for clarification, and most of the time, it will be given.

We did have a rash of agents-provocateurs join in the last couple of months, but the mods cleaned that up. (And we're so grateful, aren't we?)