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Dependent Origination and Dependent Cessation

DakiniDakini Veteran
edited March 2012 in Advanced Ideas
From another thread:

"The Buddha said Dependent Origination was the 'wrong way', ... and Dependent Cessation, the 'right way' "

Explanations welcome.

Comments

  • personperson Veteran
    The way I understood it was @WallyB was using dependent cessation as a way to point out the goal of walking the path not as a philosophical concept. Dependent origination is still the correct view of how phenomena truly exist. But taking DO to mean that we're supposed to dependently originate nirvana isn't how it is meant.

    That's just my interpretation maybe Wally can explain better if I'm off the mark.
  • note anything I say that isnt supported with sutras/suttas is based on memeory and is subject to be tainted by my personal ignorance.

    with that said.

    dependent origination is the taint or the beginigless begining of ingnorance and tainted ego self(commonly known as samsarasan),(WRONG WAY)

    the dependent Cessation is the end of this tainted ego self on the puremind(true self)(RIGHT WAY)

    the 1st 3 noble truths are impermanent the 4th truth is the permanent Cessation.of the tainted self(suffering self)

    (although I would like your friend to come on here and critique what i wrote and bash it hard so we can learn from each other)

    peace and love

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @person Thanks. All I can get out of it is that ignorance is the basis for DO, so the cessation of ignorance is the path. With the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of suffering via the cessation of kleshas, etc.

    So I guess the Buddha taught DO as a way of analyzing reality and finding ignorance at the bottom of it? A way of analyzing the reality of suffering? Not the true nature of reality itself...?

    edit: Thank you, too, K-DK. Let's await further input.
  • personperson Veteran
    @person Thanks. All I can get out of it is that ignorance is the basis for DO, so the cessation of ignorance is the path. With the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of suffering via the cessation of kleshas, etc.

    So I guess the Buddha taught DO as a way of analyzing reality and finding ignorance at the bottom of it? A way of analyzing the reality of suffering? Not the true nature of reality itself...?

    edit: Thank you, too, K-DK. Let's await further input.
    I think maybe the intended distinction is the difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I think maybe the intended distinction is the difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
    Or diagnosing the illness, vs. taking the remedy? :) I'd never heard of Dependent Cessation, so I was intrigued.

  • @person Thanks. All I can get out of it is that ignorance is the basis for DO, so the cessation of ignorance is the path. With the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of suffering via the cessation of kleshas, etc.

    So I guess the Buddha taught DO as a way of analyzing reality and finding ignorance at the bottom of it? A way of analyzing the reality of suffering? Not the true nature of reality itself...?

    edit: Thank you, too, K-DK. Let's await further input.
    yea the metaphisics of it is tricky

    LANKAVATARA SUTRA
    False-imagination teaches that such things as light and shade, long and short, black and white are different and are to be discriminated; but they are not independent of each other; they are only different aspects of the same thing, they are terms of relation not of reality. Conditions of existence are not of a mutually exclusive character; in essence things are not two but one. Even Nirvana and Samsara's world of life and death are aspects of the same thing, for there is no Nirvana except where is Samasara, and no Samsara except where is Nirvana. All duality is falsely imagined.

    Mahamati, you and all the Bodhisattvas should discipline yourselves in the realisation and patient acceptance

    p. 70

    of the truths of the emptiness, un-bornness, no self-natureness, and the non-duality of all things. This teaching is found in all the sutras of all the Buddhas and is presented to meet the varied dispositions of all beings, but it is not the Truth itself. These teachings are only a finger pointing toward Noble Wisdom. They are like a mirage with its springs of water which the deer take to be real and chase after. So with the teachings in all the sutras: They are intended for the consideration and guidance of the discriminating minds of all people, but they are not the Truth itself, which can only be self-realised within one's deepest consciousness.

    Mahamati, you and all the Bodhisattvas must seek for this inner self-realisation of Noble Wisdom, and be not captivated by word-teaching.
  • edited March 2012
    The most widely known form of dependent origination is the Twelve Nidanas, which depicts the way that the aggregates (khandha) and sense media (ayatana) interact with ignorance (avijja) and craving (tanha) to bring about stress and suffering (dukkha).

    This is often referred to as "mundane dependent origination", as it describes the conditions for suffering and stress (dukkha). There is also a "transcendental dependent origination", which is what I am guessing is referred to here as "dependent cessation", which describes the conditions for the cessation of dukkha/mundane dependent origination and the realization of awakening (bodhi) and Nibbana.

    The Upanisa Sutta describes both:
    [Dependent Origination:] "Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, [Dependent Cessation:] conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."
  • the last one was more geared toward emptiness,in this sutra impermanence is seen as the destroyer of the world.

    "Lord, whoever are attended with remainder of suffering to search, of source of suffering to eliminate, of cessation of suffering to realize directly, and of path leading to the cessation of suffering to cultivate are persons who have a fractional Nirvana. Those who have attained a fractional Nirvana, Lord, are called 'directed toward the Nirvana-realm.' Those who search all suffering, who eliminate all sources of suffering, who realize directly the cessation of suffering attain the permanent, calm, and cooled Nirvana in the world destroyed by impermanence and ever sick, and become the protection and refuge of the world in a world without protection and refuge. Why so? Because Nirvana is not attained by those who distinguish superior and inferior natures: it is attained by those for whom knowledge is equal; it is attained by those for whom pure knowledge and vision are equal. Therefore, the Nirvana-realm has a single taste (ekarasa). That is to say, the tastes of knowledge and liberation are identical. Lord, whichever persons do not eliminate or purify the nescience entrenchment, are ones without the single taste of the Nirvana-realm; that is to say, for them, knowledge and liberation taste different. Why is it so? Because they who do not eliminate or purify the nescience entrenchment, do not eliminate or purify the natures to be eliminated that are more numerous than the sands of the Ganges; and when they do not eliminate or purify the natures to be eliminated that are more numerous than the sands of the Ganges, they do not reach, do not experience directly the virtuous natures more numerous than the sands of the Ganges.
  • does this answer dependent origination for anyone?

    10. The One Truth
    "Lord, among those four Noble Truths, three Truths are impermanent and one Truth is permanent. Why so? Because the three Truths belong to the characteristic of the constructed, and anything belonging to the characteristic of the constructed is impermanent. Anything impermanent has an illusory nature. Everything with illusory nature is untrue, impermanent, and not a refuge. Therefore, the Noble Truths of Suffering, Source of Suffering, and Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering are actually untrue, impermanent, and not a refuge. Lord, among those [four], the one Truth -- Cessation of Suffering -- excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. Anything excluding the realm with the characteristic of the constructed is permanent. Whatever is permanent lacks an illusory nature. Anything that lacks an illusory nature is true, permanent, and a refuge. Therefore, the Truth -- Cessation of Suffering -- is in reality true, permanent, and a refuge.
    11-12. The One Refuge and Wayward Stage
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    From another thread:

    "The Buddha said Dependent Origination was the 'wrong way', ... and Dependent Cessation, the 'right way' "

    Explanations welcome.
    What it says to me is Dependent Origination lead to suffering, therefore it's the "wrong way". Dependent Cessation leads to the end of suffering, therefore it's the "right way"

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    What it says to me is Dependent Origination lead to suffering, therefore it's the "wrong way". Dependent Cessation leads to the end of suffering, therefore it's the "right way"
    Yes, I see that now. Thanks, everyone, for your responses.

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