We have no control

betaboy

Do we have control over where we take birth, how we look, our height, color, etc.? Of course not. These thinngs just happen and we are in the middle of it.

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

Zayl

Yup these things just happen. I've come to accept this a long, long time ago. Back when I grew up before my time. The trick is to try and make the very best of it. Not just for yourself, but for those struggling around you.

betaboy

Zayl said:

Yup these things just happen. I've come to accept this a long, long time ago. Back when I grew up before my time. The trick is to try and make the very best of it. Not just for yourself, but for those struggling around you.

My point is, even the smallest things depend on so many variables that it would be arrogant to believe we have any sort of control. So this should encourage us to let go of expectations, hope, and desire.

Zayl

@betaboy exactly! just doing that, simply giving up control, actually gives you more control over your life than you'd let on. My life is not perfect, by any means. But I love it, and I intend to help people as much as possible with it.

misecmisc1

my understanding says: in ultimate reality sense, we have no control, because there in no 'we' in there at the first place to have any control. but in conventional reality of samsara, till there is a self in us, till then we do have a choice to make in every moment of our life to perform a skillful act and to abandon an unskillful act - we are responsible for our actions. we just can't do anything and then later think that since we do not have any control, so we were in no position to control our action. Our choice can be restricted to few choices available in the current situation, but it is always possible to avoid unskillful acts and to do skillful acts.

metta to you and all sentient beings.

seeker242

MN 135
PTS: M iii 202
Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Exposition of Kamma

Introduction
by Bhikkhu Khantipalo

"You want: long life, health, beauty, power, riches, high birth, wisdom? Or even some of these things? They do not appear by chance. It is not someone's luck that they are healthy, or another's lack of it that he is stupid. Though it may not be clear to us now, all such inequalities among human beings (and all sorts of beings) come about because of the kamma they have made individually. Each person reaps his own fruits. So if one is touched by short life, sickliness, ugliness, insignificance, poverty, low birth or stupidity and one does not like these things, no need to just accept that that is the way it is. The future need not be like that provided that one makes the right kind of kamma now. Knowing what kamma to make and what not to make is the mark of a wise man. It is also the mark of one who is no longer drifting aimlessly but has some direction in life and some control over the sort of events that will occur."

1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park.

Then Subha the student (brahman), Todeyya's son, went to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side. When he had done so, Subha the student said to the Blessed One:

2. "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why inferiority and superiority are met with among human beings, among mankind? For one meets with short-lived and long-lived people, sick and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, insignificant and influential people, poor and rich people, low-born and high-born people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, what is the condition, why superiority and inferiority are met with among human beings, among mankind?"

3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."

4. "I do not understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's utterance spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning. It would be good if Master Gotama taught me the Dhamma so that I might understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's utterance spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning."

"Then listen, student, and heed well what I shall say."

"Even so, Master Gotama," Subha the student replied. The Blessed One said this:

5. "Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.

6. "But here some woman or man, having abandoned the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, lays aside the rod and lays aside the knife, is considerate and merciful and dwells compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a happy destination, in the heavenly world, he comes to the human state, he is long-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to long life, that is to say, to have abandoned the killing of living beings, to abstain from killing living beings, to lay aside the rod and lay aside the knife, to be considerate and merciful, and to dwell compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.

7. "Here, student, some woman or man is one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is sickly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to sickness, that is to say, to be one who harms beings with one's hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.

8. "But here some woman or man is not one who harms beings with his hands, or with clods, or with sticks, or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is healthy wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to health, that is to say, not to be one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.

9. "Here, student, some woman or man is angry, much given to rage; even when little is said, he is furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, he shows ill-temper, hate and surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is ugly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to ugliness, that is to say, to be furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, and to show ill-temper, hate and surliness.

10. "But here some woman or man is not angry or much given to rage; even when much is said, he is not furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, nor does he show ill-temper, hate or surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is beautiful wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to beauty, that is to say, not to be angry or given to much rage; even when much is said, not to be furious, angry, ill-disposed or resentful, or to show ill-temper, hate or surliness.

If you have no control over your current actions, if you can't control yourself from killing, lying, stealing, hating, stinginess, anger, etc, etc. then yes you have no control over your future either.

But these things just don't happen, they happen as a result of what karma you are making right now and what karma you are not making right now. Therefore one should not kill, not steal, not lie, not be harboring ill will, not be stingy, etc, etc. Choosing to stop making bad karma gives you control over your future.

genkaku

My point is, even the smallest things depend on so many variables that it would be arrogant to believe we have any sort of control.

@betaboy -- My view is that there is nothing wrong with positing top-lofty observations that critique the current scene. Control is a serious, trip-stone ingredient in anyone's life, but trying to gain control by mentioning it hardly stills the waves.

The only option that makes much sense to me is to enter the world of arrogance -- of which we are all so deliciously capable -- and exercise the abilities of courage and patience and doubt. Where oh-so-smart intellect and oh-so-compelling emotion cannot still wind and waves, what actually clears things up and offers some chance at success?

My view: Pay attention; take responsibility; and see what happens. No one ever lived a happy, healthy life on a diet of kool observations.

karasti

@betaboy you seem to have some conflict going on with some of the things you post. While what yous ay about letting go of our illusion of control and expectations is true, when taken in combination with the tone of some of the rest of your topics and posts recently, it speaks more of someone in doubt and at a value conflict with himself, than it does of confidence in what you are talking about. Whatever it is I hope you feel better about it, soon. There's nothing wrong with contemplating and asking questions, but yours seem to come from somewhat of a dark place lately.

IMO it's not so much having expectation and hope and desires of some sorts that is harmful, necessarily. It is desiring the specific outcome that is. I hope for a lot of things. I hope in his lifetime there is somewhat of a cure for diabetes for my son. I don't expect it, I won't 5 years from now feel completely disappointed and let down if it doesn't happen. But I do hope it does, one day. One can maintain hope without expectation of outcome.

Jeffrey

Keep thinking about this. The penny will drop. It takes a lot of squirming to get to that point, but in the end we cannot control everything. It is like an audience trying to control a movie. But the difference is that when we have let go of all our hang ups and trips the movie becomes quite enjoyable. It takes effort to give up all that stuff such as dear held assumptions about the world such as self/other. So it is a paradox I think. We don't have control, but we are 100% responsible for our own lives; we are responsible for all of the facets of the eightfold path. It happens on its own in some ways, but we have to take the teachings seriously. That is right intention and though in some ways it just happens without right intention there is no path.

NomaDBuddha

betaboy said:

Do we have control over where we take birth, how we look, our height, color, etc.? Of course not. These thinngs just happen and we are in the middle of it.

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

The fact that we cannot control our physical traits might be bad. But worse, I think, is not having control of some situations you may find yourself in...or control over everyone's decision.

They said this : " Let the chips fall where they may ".

Victorious

betaboy said:

Do we have control over where we take birth, how we look, our height, color, etc.? Of course not. These thinngs just happen and we are in the middle of it.

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

This is fortunately not true. Because if it were there could be no attaining nibbana. Ne?

The dharma is not deterministic.

banned_crab

We see it all wrong, thats why in buddhism we are not supposed to believe in an "I". The natural world is unbiased and YOU were not chosen for anything. Feelings, how can you blame somebody for having certain feelings? They cant control their feelings. I like to see it as playing a role in a big world. Do you ever just close your eyes and just imagine a whole world happening? If you imagine it in an egotistical way you may feel so small and so unimportant. If you think of it the unbias way you may feel free and just relaxed. No expectations , no big part , your just there. When somebody likes me or finds me attractive , instead of attaching to the idea that you are likable pass it off as "they liked this idea of me that I somehow portrayed". Ive been in this body for so long that I forgot who I was, I made the mistake of thinking I am this body.

footiam

betaboy said:

Do we have control over where we take birth, how we look, our height, color, etc.? Of course not. These thinngs just happen and we are in the middle of it.

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

If we have no control before birth, we definitely have control after birth. We can migrate to another country, for example, go for plastic surgery etc. You can also choose to be happy.

betaboy

footiam said:

betaboy said:

Do we have control over where we take birth, how we look, our height, color, etc.? Of course not. These thinngs just happen and we are in the middle of it.

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

If we have no control before birth, we definitely have control after birth. We can migrate to another country, for example, go for plastic surgery etc. You can also choose to be happy.

Theoretically, it is even possible to become Cesar. But practically ... ?

Zero

betaboy said:

point is, things just happen, but because we are aware of them we mistakenly assume we have control over them. It is like an audience thinking they have control over what they are watching.

To assume one has no control seems the same sort of mistake as assuming one has control.
Interconnectedness means influence across a broad spectrum, limited only by our recognition of cause and effect.
One needs to carefully consider what is proposed by 'control'.

For example, in one way an audience does not have 'control' over a television performance say - it plays out and it is watched.
However, if noone watches, the show is cancelled.
Is that control?

42bodhi

The only influence of conscious beings on this world lies with the action that is intertwined with thought. There's a possibility that one could have great determination, yet no influence on worldly factors. That shouldn't lead to sadness or loosening of aspiration for anyone. Aspiration is still a great strength --- it guides our determination and tilts the rudder (though may not directly guide) for the force of the raw experience.