Jhana and mental illness

upekka

do you think there is any relationship between jhana and mental illness?

i mean previously practised jhana without knowing the Buddha's Teaching leads to mental illness

like

deformed body is related to previously done wrong etc.

how

To be mentally ill just means behaving in ways that are not considered socially acceptable. That describes most of us at one time or another.
Those practicing jhanas and those not practicing the jhanas also might fit such a definition whether they know the Buddha's teachings or not.
Still....
The relationship between jhanas and mental illness are best left in the hands of a competent teacher who can ascertain when such practices are appropriate for a student and when they are not.

jll

I know many people who are not mentally ill and have
meditated to try and achieve jhana for many years.
And most of them failed.

I doubt a mentally ill person can attain jhana.

Any way, the suttas say those who has attained jhana
will be reborn in a realm much better the human realm.

upekka said:

do you think there is any relationship between jhana and mental illness?

i mean previously practised jhana without knowing the Buddha's Teaching leads to mental illness

like

deformed body is related to previously done wrong etc.

jll

Anyway, jhana is not a trance or hypnotic state.
It is just our natural state when we are able to let go
of our compulsive thinking state.

upekka

i meant the people who practiced jhana in their previous lives
and
those people who has no chance (not get the chance) to practice meditation now

Buddha once said 'all human beings' (except those who got the 'Right View' and entered into Noble Land) are mentally ill
(pruthagjana ummattaka)

in that sense, if 'we' do not have 'Right view' yet, 'we' too are mentally ill in a certain extent

it is appreciated if anybody who practice jhana up to 4th jhana can see this line of thought and answer

for sure anyone can think of this line of thought could answer please

seeker242

upekka said:

do you think there is any relationship between jhana and mental illness?

i mean previously practised jhana without knowing the Buddha's Teaching leads to mental illness

like

deformed body is related to previously done wrong etc.

Previously done wrong actions? Or previously just done jhana?

As far as "deformed body is related to previously done wrong etc." The Buddha seems to say yes it can be related. Although, I don't see how being sickly would be related to just jhana.

"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives." MN 135

But then there is this AN 4.123:

"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.

So it seems that even 1st jhana, without right view, can eventually lead to lower realm etc. or maybe unfortunate human, but not perhaps not immediately? Perhaps immediate effect of any jhana is always a higher plane, etc.

As for mental illness, perhaps some people might think a person is "mentally ill" if they don't follow the way of a Puthujjana because that way is what is considered "normal" and a noble one is extraordinarily "abnormal". I would think it would be easy for some ordinary person to misconstrue that abnormality as an illness.

upekka said:

Buddha once said 'all human beings' (except those who got the 'Right View' and entered into Noble Land) are mentally ill
(pruthagjana ummattaka)

in that sense, if 'we' do not have 'Right view' yet, 'we' too are mentally ill in a certain extent

Yes. For example, to wish that your body will never die could easily be called a "mental illness" as that is just a plain delusional wish.

upekka

seeker242 said:

So it seems that even 1st jhana, without right view, can eventually lead to lower realm etc. or maybe unfortunate human, but not perhaps not immediately? Perhaps immediate effect of any jhana is always a higher plane, etc.

if this unfortunate human is suffering from mental illness (extreme case considering all other unfortunate mentally ill people- run of the mill-people-)

don't you think
this is an indication that he of she should restart meditation to continue the journey until the End with the help of Buddha's Teaching

if they restartmeditation they would be getting jhana quickly


in another place it is mentioned that Buddha said those who have intoxicants would be born asmentally ill person in his future life

seeker242

upekka said:

don't you think
this is an indication that he of she should restart meditation to continue the journey until the End with the help of Buddha's Teaching

Yes!

Jeffrey

how said:

To be mentally ill just means behaving in ways that are not considered socially acceptable. That describes most of us at one time or another.
Those practicing jhanas and those not practicing the jhanas also might fit such a definition whether they know the Buddha's teachings or not.
Still....
The relationship between jhanas and mental illness are best left in the hands of a competent teacher who can ascertain when such practices are appropriate for a student and when they are not.

Mental illness isn't really based on behaviour. There can be two people with the same mental illness, but they both have totally different behaviour.

Unless you take a very vague definiton of behaviour. Is a delusion or hallucination behaviour? Not on my understanding.

newtech

Hello:

There is not a direct relationship between the jhanas and mental illness,
entering a Jhana is good for people and it leads to future well being.

BUT, the Buddha explained that u can get caught by CLINGING/CRAVING in any meditation state. (The whole jhana subject it can lead to a lot of WANTING and expectations, even to a person that has some experience with jhanas), and that can bring up a lot of tightness, anxiety or even depression.

how

@Jeffrey

Jeffrey said:

how said:

To be mentally ill just means behaving in ways that are not considered socially acceptable. That describes most of us at one time or another.
Those practicing jhanas and those not practicing the jhanas also might fit such a definition whether they know the Buddha's teachings or not.
Still....
The relationship between jhanas and mental illness are best left in the hands of a competent teacher who can ascertain when such practices are appropriate for a student and when they are not.

Mental illness isn't really based on behaviour. There can be two people with the same mental illness, but they both have totally different behaviour.

Unless you take a very vague definiton of behaviour. Is a delusion or hallucination behaviour? Not on my understanding.

Someone society judges as mentally ill acts in ways that makes society uncomfortable.
Someone society doesn't judge as mentally ill is the one that doesn't make them uncomfortable.
I make no judgement myself for what is or is not mental illness, just what I believe society uses to judge who is or isn't mentally ill.

jll

If mentally ill people are defined as all the normal
people, then the term becomes meaningless.
who is not mentally ill then? arahants?

I dont understand why uppeka links jhana with mental
illness.

Glow

how said:

@Jeffrey

Jeffrey said:

how said:

To be mentally ill just means behaving in ways that are not considered socially acceptable. That describes most of us at one time or another.
Those practicing jhanas and those not practicing the jhanas also might fit such a definition whether they know the Buddha's teachings or not.
Still....
The relationship between jhanas and mental illness are best left in the hands of a competent teacher who can ascertain when such practices are appropriate for a student and when they are not.

Mental illness isn't really based on behaviour. There can be two people with the same mental illness, but they both have totally different behaviour.

Unless you take a very vague definiton of behaviour. Is a delusion or hallucination behaviour? Not on my understanding.

Someone society judges as mentally ill acts in ways that makes society uncomfortable.
Someone society doesn't judge as mentally ill is the one that doesn't make them uncomfortable.
I make no judgement myself for what is or is not mental illness, just what I believe society uses to judge who is or isn't mentally ill.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think you're being too categorical here. Mental illness is a term we use to refer to a variety of people, behaviors, and states. Whether you want to regard any aspect of the human condition as pathological, however, is another question. In some cases, the term mental illness is a heuristic to designate those seeking therapeutic relationship or community.

For instance, for much of my life, I was a very high-functioning depressive. I was able to perform well at socially-sanctioned imperatives, like my work, family, and social life. But internally, I was being eaten alive by my own mind. I have known others who have been traumatized by horrific experiences of abuse or loss. They did not behave in any way that set them apart from anyone else around them. However, they were internally haunted by memories and emotions they could not handle without a compassionate and specialized presence (usually a therapist). In their cases and mine, it wasn't so much a matter of a label being thrust upon us by any external force, but reflected suffering and inner experiences that required help from someone outside of us.

misecmisc1

seeker242 said:

upekka said:

don't you think
this is an indication that he of she should restart meditation to continue the journey until the End with the help of Buddha's Teaching

Yes!

what if - the very idea of starting meditation to reach an end - in itself is just clinging to an idea. what if - there is no end to reach or there is no destination to reach. like Dogen said practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice. like AdyaShanti said - if everything is inherently Buddha-nature, where are you going to in order to find it. also Dogen said - you going out to actualize things is delusion, the various things coming to you and getting actualized is enlightenment.

seeker242

jll said:

If mentally ill people are defined as all the normal
people, then the term becomes meaningless.
who is not mentally ill then? arahants?

Yes!

misecmisc1 said:

seeker242 said:

upekka said:

don't you think
this is an indication that he of she should restart meditation to continue the journey until the End with the help of Buddha's Teaching

Yes!

what if - the very idea of starting meditation to reach an end - in itself is just clinging to an idea. what if - there is no end to reach or there is no destination to reach. like Dogen said practice is enlightenment, enlightenment is practice.

Yes, that is what the masters say! But, according to that, if you don't actually do the practice, then you don't actually have the realization of the enlightenment. I think of it like this. Buddha nature is like having a trunk full of lots of money buried in the back yard, it's only useful after you dig it up. If you never dig it up and just leave it there, it's completely useless and no different from never having it to begin with. Where do we go to get it? To the backyard!

upekka

jll said:

I dont understand why uppeka links jhana with mental
illness.

Mental illness is the negative side of the mind
Juana is positive side of the mind

However bit is advisable to have a meditation master who has faith in Buddha,s Teaching

Buddha is the only one who said there is an End to this cycle of birth (samsara-which is suffering)

lobster

In some cases, the term mental illness is a heuristic to designate those seeking therapeutic relationship or community.

As a crazy cructacean :crazy: I value the insights of those offshore for one reason or another. Being disabled by a missing leg or extra leg is not the only option. Great insight can come from our pain and afflictions, whatever the cause. So for example the Noble Truths may not become apparent until experiential. The impediment may be a blessing.
Can people be crazed by Buddhist practice and openings, Jhana, samadhi, kensho? Yes. These are just temporary, partial, of no consequence arisings. The 'purity' of the experience is occurring through the still existing conditional circumstances and is tainted by our limitations. We cling to personal notions of Jhana or craziness. Crazy people, those touched by Gods or interpreting their 'unknowable' experience sometimes start religions, cults or if wise continue as if nothing has happened . . .
Having an experience? Let it pass away.
Teachers, good company, self help and medical intervention all have their place.

Have a great day. Be kind. Anything else would be crazy . . . :wave:

Jeffrey

@how, so you are defining a mental ill one as one who is at odds with society?

how

@ Jeffrey

Jeffrey said:

@how, so you are defining a mental ill one as one who is at odds with society?

No. I am saying that society typically judges someone as mentally ill when that person makes them uncomfortable. I was not defining who is or is not mentally ill, just mentioning the common criteria that society uses to decide.

It is just a tribal version of your typical individual's them & us mentality

Jeffrey

@how, there is a component. When I am ill I feel like I am being excluded. It's like the Jim Morrison song "when you're strange... faces jump out in the rain"



I will say that I think it's totally wrong to think lack of socializing causes mental illness when I am most certain that mental illness causes less socializing. The reverse would be like saying lung cancer causes people to smoke.

So who do you think is mentally ill? What would be your criterion. In my view there are genetic illnesses that affect the brain just like there are countless syndromes that affect the body.

Watson and Crick discovered DNA. One of them, i forgot which, had bipolar and they later did research suggesting that bipolar is genetic.

how

@Jeffrey
I think I've been pretty clear that I am talking about how society judges who is mentally ill and who is not. Such judgements better describe the mental illness of society than the mental illness of the ones that society is judging.

In answering your question of who do I think is mentally ill I'd say that we are all a mixture of mental illness and mental health. The proportions vary but no one is just one or the other.
That part of our mentality which creates suffering is the illness, just as that part which alleviates it is the health.

Jeffrey

I was asking, @how, what your criterion was. I did know that you were speaking about society after one of your posts, but I was interested in your view rather than societies.. So, thanks for answering.

lobster

In some understandings of alchemy, only a whole man can practice. So the leg less are out. In Sufism in some societies, women are considered men so they can sit in the same circle (tariqa). Early Christians were so concerned about the need for members to be circumcised, that Gentiles were deemed 'circumcised of the heart'. Women . . . well . . . one important issue at a time.

Psychiatrists such as Jung and R.D. Lang went through crazy periods, when they were probably more troubled than their patients. We are talking of a continuum. Anyone who shaves their head, voluntarily gives up sex and wears a sari all day is clearly as loopy as . . . wait . . . one of the three jewels . . .

As individuals we may be suburban sadhus and sacred or in another society, a danger to the prevailing norm. So as the company, context, criteria and times change, so does the labelling.
Buddhism attempts to make us independent of these arbitrary divisions dependent on gender roles, opinions, social acceptability, caste attribution, level of awakening, physical or mental attributes etc.

Buddhism sounds to me like a form of sanity but then it would after a little exposure . . . maybe I need a debriefing . . . what I really need is a little enlightenment . . . must be time to sit with that crazy ex-aristocrat, ex-sleepy head . . . Buddha . . . :om:

Neither

upekka said:

do you think there is any relationship between jhana and mental illness?

i mean previously practised jhana without knowing the Buddha's Teaching leads to mental illness

like

deformed body is related to previously done wrong etc.

Uhh I'm not sure to what you're refering. But I think the mental states experienced in meditation come from the body actually facing itself.

If you work and work and work trying to avoid your bad marraige. You dont always feel the problem as much. But if you lose your job, or go on vaction, all the sudden the pains feel like drinking molten hot lead. Its the same problems just your actually home.

A mental illness is only an "illness" when it causes someone
"personal, social, or ocupational distress" - a quote from Diagnostic and Statistical Manuel of Mental Disorders VI TR.

One in a jhana would not be in distress. They might feel crazy though.

"What the? Where? Who the??? The heck is this? Am I? No way! But It's?... Thats.... Cool!.... or.... What the?" Thats the sound of the thinking mind beyond its realm. Ya feel me.

Blessings.