The real culprit - thoughts or feelings?

betaboy

Whenever I allow a thought to develop, it leads to negative emotions like stress, anxiety, sorrow, etc. So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

Hamsaka

In my limited understanding, the actual problem is identifying the thought OR feeling with the sense-of-me. The brain generates thoughts and feelings continuously. In meditation, you can watch them go by like a really weird parade. You can let go of inserting them into your narrative (The Story of My Life).

I see what you are saying, about nipping the thought in the bud. One thing leads to another, and the further it goes, the more alluring and intense it might become.

Hamsaka

Come to think of it, the actual problem is the 'sense-of-me', period

Jeffrey

The thoughts open realms or mandalas. It is like dripping water in a bowl. The ripples go outward and rebound on the edge and then the wave coming back also makes a pattern.

All of these thoughts open a mandala. If the mandala you are in does not serve the awareness or practice mandala you have to wait for all the ripples to subside in order to get out of the problematic thought world.

lobster

If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

My Father who suffered from undiagnosed depression from what I now know, used this approach. He was influenced by Nietzsche. It kind of works but is not the most skilful approach long term. This is suppression by will, concentration and discipline.

Doing as a temp measure as other efforts kick in might be better?

DairyLama

betaboy said:

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

You might find it helpful to investigate Right Effort, which basically says that one needs to encourage skillful mental states and discourage unskillful mental states. In the suttas it seems that crushing is used as a last resort - see the third paragraph from the bottom in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.soma.html.

As for thoughts v. feelings, I think it's somewhat chicken and egg.

poptart

It's not a question of crushing anything. Let the thoughts come and go like waves lapping the shore. The mistake is grasping onto them and reliving the past.

If negative emotions arise you may have unresolved feelings which perhaps need to be addressed.

seeker242

betaboy said:

So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

Going with yes and no. Dependent origination explains the process in which these things come about. According to dependent origination, the meeting between sense consciousness, sense organ and sense object is what causes feelings to arise. A pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling regarding the object. Feeling then cause craving and craving causes clinging and clinging goes on to eventually cause suffering. If you want to know what causes what, look into dependent origination!

You can cut it off at the contact stage, craving stage or clinging stage, or some stage before that. Although one could argue that cutting it off at the craving/clinging stage is better because you can then experience pleasant and unpleasant feelings with true equanimity as it is not always possible to cut it off at the contact stage while still having sense organs of a human body.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

It's better to not put thoughts onto an object that could be considered inappropriate for attention. Some "bad thing" that happened 5 years ago I think could be considered inappropriate. There is really no benefit from putting your attention on something when all it does is cause you distress. "Don't cry over spilled milk", etc, etc.

From inappropriate attention you're being chewed by your thoughts. Relinquishing what's inappropriate, contemplate appropriately. Keeping your mind on the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues, you will arrive at joy, rapture, pleasure without doubt. Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering & stress.

sova

grasping


imagine if you sat on a chair with your shoes in the mud and they got super stuck after two billion years.. how do you get out of the mud?


the natural state is free of defilement, like how water is naturally pure. you gotta train yourself to listen to your body energy and see how it responds to different thoughts. if you are trying to squash them all you will just go crazy trying to put a cup under every droplet in the storm.

basically you've got this never-ending energy going on, and you can steer it into clearer and clearer states. you don't have to kill thinking, just help nudge it to purity.

what is purity.


read it over slowly in your mind

ps you gotta leave your shoes behind.

lamaramadingdong

Albert Ellis once said that human beings can do only three things- think, act and feel. Change any of them to affect the others.

AllbuddhaBound

Thoughts have no special power, unless we give them power. As humans, we have the habit of taking a simple memory or thought and embellish it until it becomes difficult to manage.

Objective acceptance seems to be a much more skillful way to deal with thoughts that are threatening to be something we dwell on. There are many ways to deal with thoughts that permit you to be with them.

Crushing thoughts, treating them as if they are something not to be tolerated, ends up being a way of not tolerating yourself. Just another way to beat yourself up. You end up struggling with yourself.

DairyLama

poptart said:

It's not a question of crushing anything. Let the thoughts come and go like waves lapping the shore.

Yes, an attitude of letting go is often effective. But what if a certain thought pattern or mood refuses to go?

poptart

SpinyNorman said:

poptart said:

It's not a question of crushing anything. Let the thoughts come and go like waves lapping the shore.

Yes, an attitude of letting go is often effective. But what if a certain thought pattern or mood refuses to go?

A thought can't refuse to do anything, it is your mind that is grasping onto it. The ego mind uses thoughts to define itself. We unconsciously fall into the habit of grasping these thoughts to reinforce our idea of self. For example, reliving past events that reinforce our opinions of a certain person, or of ourselves. So if someone slighted me sometime in the past, I keep obsessively replaying that event to reinforce my feelings of being wronged and the offender as being a bad person. But this whole scenario is of my own making. It is up to me whether I keep holding onto it or not.

Sabre

This reply goes a bit into the 'theoretical' stuff first, but skip it if you are not interested because later on I look at the practical side.

I think it's useful to emphasize you are not talking about the Buddhist meaning of "feeling" here, which is a translation chosen because there is no better word for a term the Buddha used at his time. "Feeling" in that context refers to the 'flavour' of sense experiences being anywhere between nice and detesting. Be careful not to confuse this with the feelings (emotions) you are talking about. The previously mentioned dependent origination "feelings" are not emotions.

You are talking about the use of the word feelings as emotions: anger, anxiety etc. These emotions and thoughts are actually quite the same. If your meditation deepens, you will see they arise similarly. Both are a movement of mind. Therefore the Buddha used a word translated as "thought" (vitakka) also for much deeper processes of mind and emotions are included in this. Actually because the same vitakka process happens with skillful thoughts which don't lead to suffering, this process has no direct place in dependent origination. (Yes, all these translations are massively confusing, but it is the way it is - we're talking about things for which language has not developed accurate words, so people chose things that came close.)

So far my words on translations and misinterpretations.

Thoughts lead to emotions, which lead to thoughts, which lead to emotions, etc. They strengthen each other. If we keep indulging in those emotions and thoughts, they will come back. In case of unskillful thoughts and emotions, we can stop this process by countering it as soon as we recognize it. But remember that countering things is often not an active thing. Often it is just being, just accepting. A strong pattern of mind most people share is resisting things; anger is also a manifestation of this. So don't fight everything. Just see if you can sit in meditation and do nothing, resist nothing.

Sometimes a thought pattern keeps repeating nonetheless and then it may be time to use some other means. When anger arises, spend time actively cultivating loving kindness. When greed arises, practice renunciation. Those kind of things. As mentioned before by SpinyNorman, crushing thoughts is only a last resort. The sutta he mentioned is a very good one; very applicable here.

If one succeeds in removing unskillful thoughts, there will still be deeper layer of intentions of mind left to be let go of. It is these intentions which are the actual "problem". But they are deep, so just start working on what you've got. It's like peeling an onion layer by layer.

seeker242

SpinyNorman said:

poptart said:

It's not a question of crushing anything. Let the thoughts come and go like waves lapping the shore.

Yes, an attitude of letting go is often effective. But what if a certain thought pattern or mood refuses to go?

Reminds me of this:

"And how is a monk a destroyer? There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will... an arisen thought of cruelty... He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is how a monk is a destroyer. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.140.than.html

betaboy

@Sabre I have heard of that technique even in yoga. It seems famous. But is it practical - when you feel the surge of anger toward someone who has wronged you, how is it possible to suddenly cultivate the opposite (compassion or whatever) without first getting overwhelmed?

pegembara

It is possible to feel angry or depressed without knowing the reason why. The underlying thought process is often hidden from conscious view.

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."

Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting[2] behind the Blessed One, fanning him. The thought occurred to him, "Indeed, it seems that the Blessed One speaks to us of the abandoning of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge.[3] Indeed, it seems that the One Well-gone speaks to us of the relinquishing of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge."[4] As Ven. Sariputta was reflecting thus, his mind was released from fermentations through not-clinging.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.074.than.html

footiam

betaboy said:

Whenever I allow a thought to develop, it leads to negative emotions like stress, anxiety, sorrow, etc. So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

I would suppose it is not advisable to let the thoughts to develop into feelings, especially negative ones.

Sabre

betaboy said:

@Sabre I have heard of that technique even in yoga. It seems famous. But is it practical - when you feel the surge of anger toward someone who has wronged you, how is it possible to suddenly cultivate the opposite (compassion or whatever) without first getting overwhelmed?

Hi,

It also helps if you practice compassion and kindness outside of difficult situations. Just like boxers practice on a punching bag, that's easier. Then your compassion and kindness becomes stronger and it will be easier to recall it when anger arises.

lobster

betaboy said:

@Sabre I have heard of that technique even in yoga. It seems famous. But is it practical - when you feel the surge of anger toward someone who has wronged you, how is it possible to suddenly cultivate the opposite (compassion or whatever) without first getting overwhelmed?

Reframing and cognitive restructuring. Maybe @Talisman can offer her psychology skills and new trade in combination to help?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_restructuring

betaboy said:

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

Can intense feelings be reinterpreted by thinking and using language in a different way? When do we start?
:wave:

DairyLama

betaboy said:

@Sabre I have heard of that technique even in yoga. It seems famous. But is it practical - when you feel the surge of anger toward someone who has wronged you, how is it possible to suddenly cultivate the opposite (compassion or whatever) without first getting overwhelmed?

Mindfulness is the pre-requisite here.

Talisman

I view anger as something you DO not something you FEEL. If you are mindfully attending to the things you do (actions, thoughts, speech) then you will be able to recognize and intervene upon behaviors that meet the criteria for "anger".

banned_crab

Thoughts arise from a feeling. The feeling is usually feeling less about yourself so you either try and justify that in your head or distract yourself with some kind of obsession. Feelings are the real culprit, because they are the only thing that is real.

DairyLama

heyimacrab said:

Thoughts arise from a feeling.

I'm not sure it's that simple. Deliberately think about something or somebody that really irritates you and see what happens. It's why people talk about the power of positive thinking.

Dennis1

In Chan equanimity is not so valued. I understand the desire to develop equanimity.
When I see others suffer it effects me deeply. I don't reject this. I have ceased being
too concerned about my personal misfortune. I find that suffering which arises from self clinging persists and lessens my presence. Feeling for others and having an open heart channel is like a warm spring rain. It hardly feels wet at all-more like fresh. So I distinguish. I like the above comments and everyone seems to have something to say which I can learn from. I especially like Hamsaka's view. It seems that the thoughts emerge from self clinging not the other way. When this is so it is more a weight.
Concern for others-not so much. As we work with the other side-the other base, it is natural to be concerned for those you care about and you seem to care for more and more of those around you. Maybe this is more like discriminative awareness. The nature is clear. Best

Dennis1

footiam said:

betaboy said:

Whenever I allow a thought to develop, it leads to negative emotions like stress, anxiety, sorrow, etc. So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

I would suppose it is not advisable to let the thoughts to develop into feelings, especially negative ones.

When I see an act of self sacrifice-even on tv-
I have an immediate welling up of compassion. There is no thought. I don't think emotion comes from thought-except maybe the type of emotions and thought that originate in concerns for self. Practicing the Paramitas ends those pretty well. best

Dennis1

footiam said:

betaboy said:

Whenever I allow a thought to develop, it leads to negative emotions like stress, anxiety, sorrow, etc. So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

I would suppose it is not advisable to let the thoughts to develop into feelings, especially negative ones.

I don't think that is so unless the thoughts arise from self cherishing and the feelings are attachment to self. I see care for others as well as thoughts concerning others as no burden. I make a distinction. Best

footiam

blockquote class="Quote" rel="Dennis1">

footiam said:

betaboy said:

Whenever I allow a thought to develop, it leads to negative emotions like stress, anxiety, sorrow, etc. So even though painful feelings bother us, is the actual problem the thought process that gives birth to feeling? For instance, let's say my mind suddenly dwells on an event that occurred 5 years ago. If I nip it in the bud, then fine. But if I don't and instead of indulge, the thoughts multiply ... thus leading to emotions like regret, hurts, etc.

So my question is, is feeling merely the result of our decision to indulge in thoughts? If so, the only way is to crush thoughts right at the start?

I would suppose it is not advisable to let the thoughts to develop into feelings, especially negative ones.

I don't think that is so unless the thoughts arise from self cherishing and the feelings are attachment to self. I see care for others as well as thoughts concerning others as no burden. I make a distinction. Best




That perhaps is positive thoughts.<

Jenabean

We are most often triggered into uncomfortable emotions by automatic thoughts. We might not even notice these thoughts have occurred they are so ingrained in our thought patterns. They can also take form of visualizations, auditory, olfactory and tactile memories. In your case you specifically remembered a past event. The cycle goes as such. Automatic Though-- Feelings/Emotions-- Actions--Situation ..Basically you have a thought which triggers an emotional state..say you become angry and begin to behave irrationally. In this irrational state you may make rash choices (actions) that lead to bad situations which lead to further traumas and/or memories which lead to more emotions and feelings. It's a yucky cycle to be stuck in...

My advice to you is find the point you are most likely to intercept at and do it! For some it's easiest to really tune into their thought patterns and interrupt automatic thoughts before they take on a life of their own and prevent the emotions from occurring at all. Others aren't so great at reading themselves so they learn to recognize early stages of emotional crises and intervene at that point. May I recommend looking up some techniques of CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) it focuses on how to restructure our thought patterns in a more healthy manner. Good luck.