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Yes, its empathy, or down stepping. Do you ever notice how if your trying to explain something to someone whose state of mind is in a different place, that if you go to where they are and explain it from their perspective its hard to get back to where you were and it kinda drags you down?
Even if you help them from their difficulty, its only temporary and they just land themselves in further difficulty.
Thats why when i wish to help someone i help them by showing them my living example of it, which usually helps way more and it doesnt bring me to a lower state of being.
Yes, sometimes seemingly simple ideas have huge ramifications.
Just think of the idea, for instance, that all are the “One.” How might things change if people didn’t just mouth this, but actually believed it? Then jerk you met might actually be you n an earlier incarnation. How quickly would you forgive him or reach out to help him. It would probably be closer to your feelings for your own children, than some stranger (not to be trusted). : ^ )
How could you both be present at the same time, (your new and your old self)? Time being ‘One’ might actually be simultaneous, the ‘One Eternal Moment, and not separate or scattered moments strung out in sequence. Don’t get me started. : ^ )
Like anything, empathy only becomes a problem when you identify with it, as in “I am empathetic.” This is just more baggage, as now you have one more thing to live up to. It made you feel good about yourself when you saw your self as kind, and now, if you must back off, you might easily make yourself feel bad about yourself; the not so kind one, anymore. (A roller coaster ride at best.) ; ^ )
Yet, done correctly, empathy is good for everyone concerned. It may even be the birth mother of compassion.
And:
We can’t just hide from the difficult. Sooner or later, it will come and find you, and kick you around until you master it.
I can easily understand how you might FEAR empathy. Because carried to an extreme, empathy becomes chameleon like. Then you are 'Wrongfully Identifying’ but with this other ego self, where you have little or no power of choice, and so feel you are powerless...even hopeless.
If this person won’t listen to you, or insists on creating hard times again and again, of course you (now joined at the hip) must suffer his foolishness with him. Can you spell resentment?
This is why we keep some distance between our self, and our actions. We do not identify as any action, whatsoever. Simply do what the moment calls for, and let it go.
Empathy hurts. If you see someone step on broken glass, you literaly feel it. I remember as a child walking to the corner store and seeing another child who had been playing at the curb get pinned under the front wheel of a volkswagon. The driver was stricken and immobile at the wheel. The child was crushed and bleeding profusely. As I stood there in shock I heard a scream and saw the childs mother emerge from the sliding door of a nearby groundfloor apartment. Her state of being was beyond description, anguish beyond description. That pain was felt by this witness and the others who were closing in on the scene. Then you take that and expand it to the globe, not just to people but all living beings and imagine how many are experiencing that now, in Haiti for instance. Who can contain all that and not be overwhelmed? Only a Buddha. Thats what the Bodhisattva vow entails. Seems to much for me, and it is.
R: Empathy hurts. If you see someone step on broken glass, you literally feel it.
S9: Yes, empathy does hurt. But, you stop it at some point, just like if you stepped on the glass yourself. You stop it at the information level, and don’t fall into emotional suffering over it. Then, you act as required.
When we see the trouble all over the world, it can certainly be overwhelming to the system. So once again, a wise man manages his emotions. He might think, “I can’t do everything, but I can do something," and then do what he can reasonable do.
The mind is our kingdom, and we must rule over it wisely. : ^ )
Yes, sometimes seemingly simple ideas have huge ramifications.
Just think of the idea, for instance, that all are the “One.” How might things change if people didn’t just mouth this, but actually believed it? Then jerk you met might actually be you n an earlier incarnation. How quickly would you forgive him or reach out to help him. It would probably be closer to your feelings for your own children, than some stranger (not to be trusted). : ^ )
How could you both be present at the same time, (your new and your old self)? Time being ‘One’ might actually be simultaneous, the ‘One Eternal Moment, and not separate or scattered moments strung out in sequence. Don’t get me started. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
It is interesting to read the myriad of posts on the subject of compassion, and how we each differ in describing its graces.
Love of one’s neighbor, as described in the Bible, corresponds completely to love and compassion in Buddhism. In fact, it’s common to all the great religions, in theory at least. In Buddhism, love and compassion are combined with two other virtues. One consists of rejoicing in the good qualities and happiness of others and making the wish that their happiness might last as long as possible and only increase (to feel such joy about others’ happiness is the antidote to jealousy). The other is impartiality, or rather equanimity, in the sense of feeling love, compassion, and sympathetic joy not only toward those who are dear to us but also to our enemies. If we weigh up our own well-being against that of the infinity of beings, it’s clear that the importance of the former is negligible compared to the latter. It’s also important to be aware that our joy and our suffering are intimately linked to those of others. We can see in everyday life what a difference there is between people who are completely preoccupied with themselves and those whose minds are constantly turned towards others. The former are always ill at ease and dissatisfied. Their narrowness of mind gets in the way of their relationships with others, from whom they have a hard time obtaining anything at all. The latter, on the other hand, who have open minds and are very little concerned about themselves, are always focused on what might be best for others.
Finally, as I have already suggested in this thread, love and compassion in Buddhism is indissociable from wisdom or in other words from knowledge of the true nature of things, and are aimed at freeing others from the ignorance that’s the primary cause of their misfortune. It’s that specific wisdom that gives so much strength to compassion. “Idiot Compassion” attempts to unravel this precept by implicating the intent of another, inferring a superiority of will, ideal, heart or understanding. All-in-all, this is why your comment stands out to me, as it encapsulates the simple unaltered nature of compassion.
I don’t believe that compassion is actually something we do, though obviously it feels this way to us, like it is a decision. (But as Alan Watts points out, decisions are also something that we don’t actually do, more come about through us spontaneously.)
Interestingly, when the Christians speak of Grace, they are speaking of a blessing that is given and not something we actually do. Could it be that deciding to do compassion is something that flows naturally out of increased clarity of some sort? Where does this clarity actually come from?
I believe that compassion (AKA clarity) is a byproduct of different things coming together to form something larger than just the combination of the original 2, a gestalt. (Or 1 plus 1 = 3)
One of these is when we, ourselves, are not in a lot of pain and can find the space it requires to go outside of our selves and think about others for a change.
Another way it comes about is through actually studying our own selves, and in beginning to see why we do and feel much that we do and feel.
In doing this, many things come about naturally:
First we are able to forgive ourselves for things that we felt were unforgivable before, and to stop punishing ourselves. This gives us some space from suffering.
2ndarily, through extrapoltion, we are able to see more clearly that other people are basically much like ourselves. They are also suffering, and not forgiving of themselves, and that therefore many of their actions grow out of this pain and suffering.
3rdly, we are then far more able to forgive these others, who are pretty much in the same boat that we are. We see that they are burning with the flames of emotional unhappiness (hell) and are sometimes unable to help themselves. Often they are confused.
When we see that how they are acting has little actually to do with us, and everything to do with their own personal pain, we are somehow extricated from this painful equation. (No need for payback)
We are able to step aside, and to be far more objective of these circumstances. (No need to defend) We are outside of this pain and given the distance required to go beyond ourselves. In this moment of abundance, we are GIVEN the Grace to be able to lend a helping hand…or compassion.
In this way, some people aren’t really better or superior to others, but actually just more fortunate. “To whom much is given, much is asked.” As in "pass it on." : ^ )
Look at this way, has any author of the worlds galloping horrors acted out of bad intention. No. It alway out of an IDEA of goodness. Good and bad intention are two sides of one coin. Best to act out of formlessness.
Have you ever read the Malleus Maleficarum? That is the logical end of crystalized Divine Compassion.
Coincidently, I grew up in the Boston area, in a little town just a few miles south of Salem (as in the Salem Witch Trials).
What are you suggesting about good intentions, (because of the past events in history not always having the best of outcomes), we should just give up on trying to have good intentions at/all? (The whole original sin thing, about man being hopelessly evil?)
Wouldn't that be "a fine how-do-you-do?" Smiles!
I do believe that many people act out of bad intentions (disregard) towards others, some being mentally ill. Even though everyone mainly acts in such a way as to bring him/her selves’ happiness. (Aristotle).
R: Best to act out of formlessness.
S9: Isn’t that what compassion comes down to, acting in a way that has transcended ego?
Coincidently, I grew up in the Boston area, in a little town just a few miles south of Salem (as in the Salem Witch Trials).
What are you suggesting about good intentions, (because of the past events in history not always having the best of outcomes), we should just give up on trying to have good intentions at/all? (The whole original sin thing, about man being hopelessly evil?)
Wouldn't that be "a fine how-do-you-do?" Smiles!
I do believe that many people act out of bad intentions (disregard) towards others, some being mentally ill. Even though everyone mainly acts in such a way as to bring him/her selves’ happiness. (Aristotle).
R: Best to act out of formlessness.
S9: Isn’t that what compassion comes down to, acting in a way that has transcended ego?
Warm Regards,
S9
I dont think we really disagree on this. Your last point of course is true. It is just a matter of emphasis in this thread. The notion that there can be "idiot Compassion", which I agree is a vuglar way of putting it, is an issue. My point is just this ....that good intentions are better than bad intentions, but both good intention and bad intention gives way to, as you say .. "acting in a way that has transcended ego?"
My concern is Idee fixe, or ideological compassion, which has been shown to become pernicious.
Good and Bad are relative, and without wiping out that relative truth, we open to that spontaneuous action, that I'm sure you know, which is situational, adaptive, and without rigidity.
Anyway. Thats all Im getting at. ....with respect.
I don’t believe that compassion is actually something we do, though obviously it feels this way to us, like it is a decision. (But as Alan Watts points out, decisions are also something that we don’t actually do, more come about through us spontaneously.)
Interestingly, when the Christians speak of Grace, they are speaking of a blessing that is given and not something we actually do. Could it be that deciding to do compassion is something that flows naturally out of increased clarity of some sort? Where does this clarity actually come from?[...]
It is the imperfection of our understanding of such things…
From a certain point of view I would wholeheartedly agree that compassion is not something we do. In Tibetan, nyingjẻ, which we translate as compassion, means literally ‘lord of the heart’, that’s to say that which should reign over our thoughts. It is the influence by which we seek to remedy all forms of suffering, and especially its causes – ignorance, hatred, desire, and so on.
Compassion is the distinction of the ultimate evolution of the spiritual path to Buddha nature. As progress is made in our efforts to shed the veils of mental obscurations, we nevertheless and measurably remain individually and distinctively ambiguous in understanding the true nature of compassion and its influence, and thusly remain crippled in perfecting its application. Nevertheless, even within a modest drop of moot kindness, compassion influences the intent of action to deliver others from suffering, i.e. even dirty water may serve to quench a thirst. As intent is the meaning of action, action is the expression in the outer world of the inner knowledge acquired through right views, mindfulness, meditation and so forth.
Thus the Eightfold Path, the path of moral cultivation, of successive right intention, action and so forth.
**my great grandfather was feeling well tonight, and his original discussion/response was almost 1,100 words, quotes and all! He allowed me to cut it down a bit, lucky you... Hopefully nothing has been lost in my meddling.
I have been told that, it is only though seeing our ‘Oneness’ with another that, we are able to feel compassion for this other.
I believe this means that when we are able to see ourselves in another, or as being very similar to this other, outside of circumstances… that this deeper Oneness becomes apparent. Seeing our selves in another removes what we usually feel to be a separation, or otherness. Perhaps like you have said, this is very much a quality of the heart. (Heart to Heart.)
Oneness, being an elevated understanding of Reality, frees us from the mind’s usual dualities, and her problem creating imagination, and therefore also frees us from her imagined sufferings.
In this way, compassion is not something simply given to another, but compassion actually travels in two directions simultaneously, one of these directions is back at our selves.
I have been told that, it is only though seeing our ‘Oneness’ with another that, we are able to feel compassion for this other.
I believe this means that when we are able to see ourselves in another, or as being very similar to this other, outside of circumstances… that this deeper Oneness becomes apparent. Seeing our selves in another removes what we usually feel to be a separation, or otherness. Perhaps like you have said, this is very much a quality of the heart. (Heart to Heart.)
Oneness, being an elevated understanding of Reality, frees us from the mind’s usual dualities, and her problem creating imagination, and therefore also frees us from her imagined sufferings.
In this way, compassion is not something simply given to another, but compassion actually travels in two directions simultaneously, one of these directions is back at our selves.
Warm Regards,
S9
Indeed, and perhaps compassion is inherently perfected within one’s heart. Perhaps, it is the understanding, the extent of influence, the correctness of action, which shrouds its ultimate potential in application. Perhaps the utter simplicity of compassion is too naïve to accept...
Then again, perhaps compassion is ever constant, surrounding, influencing, and penetrating all things at every point of the compass, yet existing outside all of man’s conjecture, inference, ridicule, shame, indifference, and tribulation. Perhaps compassion is the everlasting projection of a perfected thing, the gift of all gifts, ceaselessly enduring and enduring eternally. Perhaps, in the absence of ‘Oneness’, in the absence of absoluteness, in the presence of those who would choose different paths, in the presence of those ignorant in the ways of Dhamma, in the presence of all Khandha, in the absence of the teachings and understandings of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Stoicism, Epicureanism, and all other messages of faith and belief, the compassionate intent of one's heart is enough.
Perhaps as a young prince was influenced by the acknowledgment of suffering, the pains of hunger, the extremes of asceticism and the mendicant, one may be persuaded away from the precipice of uncertainty, as a prince was delivered from suffering, hunger, pain, and the extremes of that which is not the Middle Way, by the compassion of a shepherdess…
As such, perhaps all are simply reminded from time to time in the midst of all things uncertain that compassion is always within us…perfection unperfected, as the heart’s reasoning is beyond the mind's understanding, so remains the incessant contemplation of idiot compassion by the busy mind…
Has anyone ever told you that, you have the heart of a poet? Outside the wisdom of your words, they are also quite beautiful. : ^ )
R: Perhaps the utter simplicity of compassion is too naïve to accept...
S9: It does seem that a part of growing up in many cultures is to be trained out of being naïve, (AKA being soft), but unfortunately this is mixed in with being less trustful as/well, and also being more hard-hearted, (AKA being more closed off).
Yet, is this so/called consequential added safety actually worth the loss of our openhearted innocence, which we then continue to suffer through isolation, and less affection towards others, and this same affection no longer being returned to us?
Does it make you wonder if , “We sometimes get too smart for our own good?” : ^ (
Like you say, most of this lack of trust may be only surface, but than again we also may be isolated behind this exterior crust of mistrust (AKA armor), and the so called “masks” of civilization.
It is also quite sad that our genuine need to belong often only takes place in a setting of “us against them,” There being no insiders without the outsiders. So much fear.
Does it make you wonder if , “We sometimes get too smart for our own good?”
If the convolution of elemental truth equates to intelligence, then perhaps there is wisdom to be realized within your statement.
Yet, there’s been no fall, and there’s no sin, there’s only a forgetting of our original nature, a state of somnolence or amnesia. We inherent the past and create the future… The Buddha’s message was purposely simple and poignant…
One day the Buddha picked up a handful of leaves and asked his disciples, ‘Are there more leaves here in my hand, or in the forest?’ The disciples replied that there were, of course, more leaves in the forest. ‘In just the same way,’ the Buddha continued, ‘I have realized more things than I have taught, for there are many things that, although they can be known, would nonetheless be of no help for putting an end to suffering and attaining enlightenment.’
As such, the pontification of esoteric statements, writings, judgments, and absolute conclusions should be listened to but with one ear in the absence of personal examination and contemplation. The ultimate truth resides equally within the Buddha nature of each and every living thing without any insurmountable disparity.
S9: Work with me here. This is a metaphorical fall, and a metaphorical sin.
In other words, ‘sin’ would be anything that causes suffering because of our confusion or wrong-headedness. And a ‘fall’ would be anything that is below our highest understandings of ‘Isness, ’ or ‘Thusness.’
We mustn’t “fall” into believing that everyone should use our favorite words/ways of explaining things. : ^ (
There is much beauty and wisdom in diversity.
There are many Christian Mystics who say things slightly differently than we might wish, at first sight, and yet they are pointing at the very same Ultimate Truths that we are seeking.
One of the greatest minds ever to live and write, a Meister Eckhart, often uses the word ‘God.’ This is a word can throw some otherwise intelligent people, (who cannot be flexible in word usage, and have a word bias), into a downward tailspin. They simply toss Eckhart off as being one more Theist, which is certainly far from true. I personally feel that this would be a real shame, and a very great loss to them.
R: There’s only a forgetting of our original nature, a state of somnolence or amnesia.
S9: The word “forgetting” makes it sound like the mind and her memory are in charge of our Realization, or that Realization is something that we do with effort.
I am not certain that this is completely true, as our Original Nature is ‘Ever Present,’ right ‘Here’ and ‘Now.’ But we do not recognize it, in its ‘Immediacy.’ Our expectations about what Realization must be, goes on to cloaks the very simplicity of our own deeper ‘Being.’
R: We inherent the past and create the future…
S9: This makes it sound like the past and the future are real things, outside of mind’s imagination. They are not.
R: The Buddha’s message was purposely simple and poignant…
S9: Yes, and yet, so little understood. Whole monasteries of monks, after a lifetime of intense effort, produce but few Enlightened Masters. Why is that?
R: Buddha continued, ‘I have realized more things than I have taught.
S9: This certainly wasn’t for want of trying. He dedicated his whole life to teaching. And yet, so few can reach out and take the flower that he holds (openly) in his hand. (Mahakasyapa)
R: As such, the pontification of esoteric statements, writings, judgments, and absolute conclusions should be listened to but with one ear in the absence of personal examination and contemplation.
S9: Certainly everything requires personal investigation. But I am not certain anyone of us here, knows for certain, what doesn’t need to be said and to who. As one man’s poison is another man’s medicine.
I don’t believe that there is any statement at/all that void of all wisdom. Very often we learn from our mistakes more rapidly, especially if they are brought out into the light.
Whereas thinking that we already know something, a could be arrogance, can be the BIGGEST of obstructions.
R: The ultimate truth resides equally within the Buddha nature of each and every living thing without any insurmountable disparity.
These are diffident points of discussion I would enjoy entering into. If you could separate your points from time to time within individual ‘posts’ on this ‘thread’, allowing me time to respond before posting another, I would be most grateful. (My great grandson reads out loud the posts and types my responses, so it can be quite arduous for him.)
If you have neither the time nor the inclination of favor, I will defer to your interpretation and graciousness.
R: These are diffident points of discussion I would enjoy entering into.
S9: Diffident: meaning lacking in confidence? Or is it the other meaning of this word of being shy or timid. Ya that describes me. NOT…I don’t think so. ; ^ )
R: These are diffident points of discussion I would enjoy entering into. If you could separate your points from time to time within individual ‘posts’ on this ‘thread’, allowing me time to respond before posting another, I would be most grateful.
S9: Start any post you like, and ask me anything that rings your bell. I will respond. Until than, why not choose any particular statement within my writings to you that grabs your interest, and go with it? I will not be offended if you don't speak to everything in my posting.
I do notice your posts aren’t particularly short. Your grandson must love you very much. : ^ ) I am sure he is glad to be learning from your wisdom and sharing this closeness with you.
Comments
Isn’t that empathy?
S9
Your last comment/sentence is most insightful, as it is the harbinger of wisdom that serves to ignite the catalyst of greater possibilities.
Even if you help them from their difficulty, its only temporary and they just land themselves in further difficulty.
Thats why when i wish to help someone i help them by showing them my living example of it, which usually helps way more and it doesnt bring me to a lower state of being.
Yes, sometimes seemingly simple ideas have huge ramifications.
Just think of the idea, for instance, that all are the “One.” How might things change if people didn’t just mouth this, but actually believed it? Then jerk you met might actually be you n an earlier incarnation. How quickly would you forgive him or reach out to help him. It would probably be closer to your feelings for your own children, than some stranger (not to be trusted). : ^ )
How could you both be present at the same time, (your new and your old self)? Time being ‘One’ might actually be simultaneous, the ‘One Eternal Moment, and not separate or scattered moments strung out in sequence. Don’t get me started. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
Like anything, empathy only becomes a problem when you identify with it, as in “I am empathetic.” This is just more baggage, as now you have one more thing to live up to. It made you feel good about yourself when you saw your self as kind, and now, if you must back off, you might easily make yourself feel bad about yourself; the not so kind one, anymore. (A roller coaster ride at best.) ; ^ )
Yet, done correctly, empathy is good for everyone concerned. It may even be the birth mother of compassion.
And:
We can’t just hide from the difficult. Sooner or later, it will come and find you, and kick you around until you master it.
I can easily understand how you might FEAR empathy. Because carried to an extreme, empathy becomes chameleon like. Then you are 'Wrongfully Identifying’ but with this other ego self, where you have little or no power of choice, and so feel you are powerless...even hopeless.
If this person won’t listen to you, or insists on creating hard times again and again, of course you (now joined at the hip) must suffer his foolishness with him. Can you spell resentment?
This is why we keep some distance between our self, and our actions. We do not identify as any action, whatsoever. Simply do what the moment calls for, and let it go.
Warm Regards,
S9
R: Empathy hurts. If you see someone step on broken glass, you literally feel it.
S9: Yes, empathy does hurt. But, you stop it at some point, just like if you stepped on the glass yourself. You stop it at the information level, and don’t fall into emotional suffering over it. Then, you act as required.
When we see the trouble all over the world, it can certainly be overwhelming to the system. So once again, a wise man manages his emotions. He might think, “I can’t do everything, but I can do something," and then do what he can reasonable do.
The mind is our kingdom, and we must rule over it wisely. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
It is interesting to read the myriad of posts on the subject of compassion, and how we each differ in describing its graces.
Love of one’s neighbor, as described in the Bible, corresponds completely to love and compassion in Buddhism. In fact, it’s common to all the great religions, in theory at least. In Buddhism, love and compassion are combined with two other virtues. One consists of rejoicing in the good qualities and happiness of others and making the wish that their happiness might last as long as possible and only increase (to feel such joy about others’ happiness is the antidote to jealousy). The other is impartiality, or rather equanimity, in the sense of feeling love, compassion, and sympathetic joy not only toward those who are dear to us but also to our enemies. If we weigh up our own well-being against that of the infinity of beings, it’s clear that the importance of the former is negligible compared to the latter. It’s also important to be aware that our joy and our suffering are intimately linked to those of others. We can see in everyday life what a difference there is between people who are completely preoccupied with themselves and those whose minds are constantly turned towards others. The former are always ill at ease and dissatisfied. Their narrowness of mind gets in the way of their relationships with others, from whom they have a hard time obtaining anything at all. The latter, on the other hand, who have open minds and are very little concerned about themselves, are always focused on what might be best for others.
Finally, as I have already suggested in this thread, love and compassion in Buddhism is indissociable from wisdom or in other words from knowledge of the true nature of things, and are aimed at freeing others from the ignorance that’s the primary cause of their misfortune. It’s that specific wisdom that gives so much strength to compassion. “Idiot Compassion” attempts to unravel this precept by implicating the intent of another, inferring a superiority of will, ideal, heart or understanding. All-in-all, this is why your comment stands out to me, as it encapsulates the simple unaltered nature of compassion.
I don’t believe that compassion is actually something we do, though obviously it feels this way to us, like it is a decision. (But as Alan Watts points out, decisions are also something that we don’t actually do, more come about through us spontaneously.)
Interestingly, when the Christians speak of Grace, they are speaking of a blessing that is given and not something we actually do. Could it be that deciding to do compassion is something that flows naturally out of increased clarity of some sort? Where does this clarity actually come from?
I believe that compassion (AKA clarity) is a byproduct of different things coming together to form something larger than just the combination of the original 2, a gestalt. (Or 1 plus 1 = 3)
One of these is when we, ourselves, are not in a lot of pain and can find the space it requires to go outside of our selves and think about others for a change.
Another way it comes about is through actually studying our own selves, and in beginning to see why we do and feel much that we do and feel.
In doing this, many things come about naturally:
First we are able to forgive ourselves for things that we felt were unforgivable before, and to stop punishing ourselves. This gives us some space from suffering.
2ndarily, through extrapoltion, we are able to see more clearly that other people are basically much like ourselves. They are also suffering, and not forgiving of themselves, and that therefore many of their actions grow out of this pain and suffering.
3rdly, we are then far more able to forgive these others, who are pretty much in the same boat that we are. We see that they are burning with the flames of emotional unhappiness (hell) and are sometimes unable to help themselves. Often they are confused.
When we see that how they are acting has little actually to do with us, and everything to do with their own personal pain, we are somehow extricated from this painful equation. (No need for payback)
We are able to step aside, and to be far more objective of these circumstances. (No need to defend) We are outside of this pain and given the distance required to go beyond ourselves. In this moment of abundance, we are GIVEN the Grace to be able to lend a helping hand…or compassion.
In this way, some people aren’t really better or superior to others, but actually just more fortunate. “To whom much is given, much is asked.” As in "pass it on." : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
R: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
S9: So is the road to heaven, the road to recovery, and almost every improvement known to man. I'll take my chances. ; ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
Have you ever read the Malleus Maleficarum? That is the logical end of crystalized Divine Compassion.
Coincidently, I grew up in the Boston area, in a little town just a few miles south of Salem (as in the Salem Witch Trials).
What are you suggesting about good intentions, (because of the past events in history not always having the best of outcomes), we should just give up on trying to have good intentions at/all? (The whole original sin thing, about man being hopelessly evil?)
Wouldn't that be "a fine how-do-you-do?" Smiles!
I do believe that many people act out of bad intentions (disregard) towards others, some being mentally ill. Even though everyone mainly acts in such a way as to bring him/her selves’ happiness. (Aristotle).
R: Best to act out of formlessness.
S9: Isn’t that what compassion comes down to, acting in a way that has transcended ego?
Warm Regards,
S9
I dont think we really disagree on this. Your last point of course is true. It is just a matter of emphasis in this thread. The notion that there can be "idiot Compassion", which I agree is a vuglar way of putting it, is an issue. My point is just this ....that good intentions are better than bad intentions, but both good intention and bad intention gives way to, as you say .. "acting in a way that has transcended ego?"
My concern is Idee fixe, or ideological compassion, which has been shown to become pernicious.
Good and Bad are relative, and without wiping out that relative truth, we open to that spontaneuous action, that I'm sure you know, which is situational, adaptive, and without rigidity.
Anyway. Thats all Im getting at. ....with respect.
It is the imperfection of our understanding of such things…
From a certain point of view I would wholeheartedly agree that compassion is not something we do. In Tibetan, nyingjẻ, which we translate as compassion, means literally ‘lord of the heart’, that’s to say that which should reign over our thoughts. It is the influence by which we seek to remedy all forms of suffering, and especially its causes – ignorance, hatred, desire, and so on.
Compassion is the distinction of the ultimate evolution of the spiritual path to Buddha nature. As progress is made in our efforts to shed the veils of mental obscurations, we nevertheless and measurably remain individually and distinctively ambiguous in understanding the true nature of compassion and its influence, and thusly remain crippled in perfecting its application. Nevertheless, even within a modest drop of moot kindness, compassion influences the intent of action to deliver others from suffering, i.e. even dirty water may serve to quench a thirst. As intent is the meaning of action, action is the expression in the outer world of the inner knowledge acquired through right views, mindfulness, meditation and so forth.
Thus the Eightfold Path, the path of moral cultivation, of successive right intention, action and so forth.
**my great grandfather was feeling well tonight, and his original discussion/response was almost 1,100 words, quotes and all! He allowed me to cut it down a bit, lucky you... Hopefully nothing has been lost in my meddling.
I have been told that, it is only though seeing our ‘Oneness’ with another that, we are able to feel compassion for this other.
I believe this means that when we are able to see ourselves in another, or as being very similar to this other, outside of circumstances… that this deeper Oneness becomes apparent. Seeing our selves in another removes what we usually feel to be a separation, or otherness. Perhaps like you have said, this is very much a quality of the heart. (Heart to Heart.)
Oneness, being an elevated understanding of Reality, frees us from the mind’s usual dualities, and her problem creating imagination, and therefore also frees us from her imagined sufferings.
In this way, compassion is not something simply given to another, but compassion actually travels in two directions simultaneously, one of these directions is back at our selves.
Warm Regards,
S9
Indeed, and perhaps compassion is inherently perfected within one’s heart. Perhaps, it is the understanding, the extent of influence, the correctness of action, which shrouds its ultimate potential in application. Perhaps the utter simplicity of compassion is too naïve to accept...
Then again, perhaps compassion is ever constant, surrounding, influencing, and penetrating all things at every point of the compass, yet existing outside all of man’s conjecture, inference, ridicule, shame, indifference, and tribulation. Perhaps compassion is the everlasting projection of a perfected thing, the gift of all gifts, ceaselessly enduring and enduring eternally. Perhaps, in the absence of ‘Oneness’, in the absence of absoluteness, in the presence of those who would choose different paths, in the presence of those ignorant in the ways of Dhamma, in the presence of all Khandha, in the absence of the teachings and understandings of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Stoicism, Epicureanism, and all other messages of faith and belief, the compassionate intent of one's heart is enough.
Perhaps as a young prince was influenced by the acknowledgment of suffering, the pains of hunger, the extremes of asceticism and the mendicant, one may be persuaded away from the precipice of uncertainty, as a prince was delivered from suffering, hunger, pain, and the extremes of that which is not the Middle Way, by the compassion of a shepherdess…
As such, perhaps all are simply reminded from time to time in the midst of all things uncertain that compassion is always within us…perfection unperfected, as the heart’s reasoning is beyond the mind's understanding, so remains the incessant contemplation of idiot compassion by the busy mind…
Has anyone ever told you that, you have the heart of a poet? Outside the wisdom of your words, they are also quite beautiful. : ^ )
R: Perhaps the utter simplicity of compassion is too naïve to accept...
S9: It does seem that a part of growing up in many cultures is to be trained out of being naïve, (AKA being soft), but unfortunately this is mixed in with being less trustful as/well, and also being more hard-hearted, (AKA being more closed off).
Yet, is this so/called consequential added safety actually worth the loss of our openhearted innocence, which we then continue to suffer through isolation, and less affection towards others, and this same affection no longer being returned to us?
Does it make you wonder if , “We sometimes get too smart for our own good?” : ^ (
Like you say, most of this lack of trust may be only surface, but than again we also may be isolated behind this exterior crust of mistrust (AKA armor), and the so called “masks” of civilization.
It is also quite sad that our genuine need to belong often only takes place in a setting of “us against them,” There being no insiders without the outsiders. So much fear.
Warm Regards,
S9
If the convolution of elemental truth equates to intelligence, then perhaps there is wisdom to be realized within your statement.
Yet, there’s been no fall, and there’s no sin, there’s only a forgetting of our original nature, a state of somnolence or amnesia. We inherent the past and create the future… The Buddha’s message was purposely simple and poignant…
One day the Buddha picked up a handful of leaves and asked his disciples, ‘Are there more leaves here in my hand, or in the forest?’ The disciples replied that there were, of course, more leaves in the forest. ‘In just the same way,’ the Buddha continued, ‘I have realized more things than I have taught, for there are many things that, although they can be known, would nonetheless be of no help for putting an end to suffering and attaining enlightenment.’
As such, the pontification of esoteric statements, writings, judgments, and absolute conclusions should be listened to but with one ear in the absence of personal examination and contemplation. The ultimate truth resides equally within the Buddha nature of each and every living thing without any insurmountable disparity.
R: There’s been no fall, and there’s no sin.
S9: Work with me here. This is a metaphorical fall, and a metaphorical sin.
In other words, ‘sin’ would be anything that causes suffering because of our confusion or wrong-headedness. And a ‘fall’ would be anything that is below our highest understandings of ‘Isness, ’ or ‘Thusness.’
We mustn’t “fall” into believing that everyone should use our favorite words/ways of explaining things. : ^ (
There is much beauty and wisdom in diversity.
There are many Christian Mystics who say things slightly differently than we might wish, at first sight, and yet they are pointing at the very same Ultimate Truths that we are seeking.
One of the greatest minds ever to live and write, a Meister Eckhart, often uses the word ‘God.’ This is a word can throw some otherwise intelligent people, (who cannot be flexible in word usage, and have a word bias), into a downward tailspin. They simply toss Eckhart off as being one more Theist, which is certainly far from true. I personally feel that this would be a real shame, and a very great loss to them.
R: There’s only a forgetting of our original nature, a state of somnolence or amnesia.
S9: The word “forgetting” makes it sound like the mind and her memory are in charge of our Realization, or that Realization is something that we do with effort.
I am not certain that this is completely true, as our Original Nature is ‘Ever Present,’ right ‘Here’ and ‘Now.’ But we do not recognize it, in its ‘Immediacy.’ Our expectations about what Realization must be, goes on to cloaks the very simplicity of our own deeper ‘Being.’
R: We inherent the past and create the future…
S9: This makes it sound like the past and the future are real things, outside of mind’s imagination. They are not.
R: The Buddha’s message was purposely simple and poignant…
S9: Yes, and yet, so little understood. Whole monasteries of monks, after a lifetime of intense effort, produce but few Enlightened Masters. Why is that?
R: Buddha continued, ‘I have realized more things than I have taught.
S9: This certainly wasn’t for want of trying. He dedicated his whole life to teaching. And yet, so few can reach out and take the flower that he holds (openly) in his hand. (Mahakasyapa)
R: As such, the pontification of esoteric statements, writings, judgments, and absolute conclusions should be listened to but with one ear in the absence of personal examination and contemplation.
S9: Certainly everything requires personal investigation. But I am not certain anyone of us here, knows for certain, what doesn’t need to be said and to who. As one man’s poison is another man’s medicine.
I don’t believe that there is any statement at/all that void of all wisdom. Very often we learn from our mistakes more rapidly, especially if they are brought out into the light.
Whereas thinking that we already know something, a could be arrogance, can be the BIGGEST of obstructions.
R: The ultimate truth resides equally within the Buddha nature of each and every living thing without any insurmountable disparity.
S9: I guess we can all agree on that.
Warm Regards,
S9
If you have neither the time nor the inclination of favor, I will defer to your interpretation and graciousness.
R: These are diffident points of discussion I would enjoy entering into.
S9: Diffident: meaning lacking in confidence? Or is it the other meaning of this word of being shy or timid. Ya that describes me. NOT…I don’t think so. ; ^ )
R: These are diffident points of discussion I would enjoy entering into. If you could separate your points from time to time within individual ‘posts’ on this ‘thread’, allowing me time to respond before posting another, I would be most grateful.
S9: Start any post you like, and ask me anything that rings your bell. I will respond. Until than, why not choose any particular statement within my writings to you that grabs your interest, and go with it? I will not be offended if you don't speak to everything in my posting.
I do notice your posts aren’t particularly short. Your grandson must love you very much. : ^ ) I am sure he is glad to be learning from your wisdom and sharing this closeness with you.
Warm Regards,
S9