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China vs. Tibet: A Good Article?

edited March 2011 in Buddhism Today
My friend knows nothing about the situation with China and Tibet. I was trying to find a good, simple but informative article to give to him to explain what China is doing to Tibet, then realized someone here might have a good link quicker than I can find one.

Does anyone have a good link to an article explaining what is happening there so I can send it to him?

Thanks.

PS: It must be somewhat simple though, not a lengthy essay, or he won't bother reading it.

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    http://www.korubo.com/TIBETDOC/palden.htm
    Shocking doesn't cover it.....
  • Ugh... puts chills up and down my arms just reading that. Thank you Federica, I will share that with him.

    I KNOW his next question will be "Why would buddhists be shooting guns, I thought they believe in non-violence? Referring to the sentence "We fired some shots in the direction of the Chinese army". I'm not sure how to answer that question, but I know he will ask.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I KNOW his next question will be "Why would buddhists be shooting guns, I thought they believe in non-violence? Referring to the sentence "We fired some shots in the direction of the Chinese army". I'm not sure how to answer that question, but I know he will ask.
    Firing warning shots is a good preventive measure, and so accords with Buddhist practice. It doesn't harm anyone. I assume they weren't shooting to kill or injure. but I guess we don't know.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Self-defence is not disallowed in Buddhism.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Self-defence is not disallowed in Buddhism.
    This is an important point for the defending-the-innocent thread. What is the source for this position?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    "If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill. As he told the monks,

    "Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."

    — MN 21
    From here.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/gettingmessage.html
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Funny how people can read that passage and come away with completely opposing conclusions. :-/ Where does it say you can strike back? This seems to say that you just send the attacker loving thoughts. (I really don't mean to be obtuse...)
  • I hear that History as Propaganda is excellent.
  • It says directly "...the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill...."
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Who intepreted that comment? It's not clear if it's Federica's comment, a later commentator to the suttra's comment, or what?
  • LostieLostie Veteran
    I remembered watching this documentary about pre-liberated Tibet on CCTV when I visited China. Well it all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on...

    A 30-min video in all called 'Liberating The Serfs'.

  • Who intepreted that comment? It's not clear if it's Federica's comment, a later commentator to the suttra's comment, or what?
    Dakini, Federica cited her source with the link. Go to the link and read it.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    That comment is Thanissaro Bhikku's. There's nothing in the text he provides that supports his comment. Maybe it exists somewhere, but he doesn't provide it.
  • That comment is Thanissaro Bhikku's. There's nothing in the text he provides that supports his comment. Maybe it exists somewhere, but he doesn't provide it.
    Well, first, you asked who interpreted the comment, so there ya go. It was Bhikku. But he also cites his source directly under the quote: MN 21.

    The Majjhima Nikaya, or "Middle-length Discourses" of the Buddha, is the second of the five nikayas (collections) of the Sutta Pitaka.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I see nothing in MN21 that says what Thanissaro says it does.
  • Guess that's a question for Federica, since she posted the quote. I just repeated the source she cited, and the source cited from that source.

    image
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I am working to find a sutta reference.
    However, I would point out that the action isn't necessary the deal-breaker.
    It's the mental attitude, and whether Virtue is intact.
    Just as a parent striking their own child in order to chastise them, does not hold hatred, animosity or resentment in their heart for their own offspring, (let's not discuss child cruelty issues here, please) so a person engaged in self-defence should avoid any hostile, aggressive or hateful feelings towards their attacker.
    The intention is not to harm them.
    it is to protect yourself.
  • edited March 2011
    So it was ok to go to fight against the Chinese, because the Tibetans were protecting themselves? Was it ok to drop the bomb on Hiroshima, because the Americans were protecting themselves, and (according to the propaganda of the day) were hoping to end the war and save lives? Their intent was good? Tricky question.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    We have a thread running on the Hiroshima question, let's not start doubling up, please.
    And we're talking about China Vs Tibet, so let's leave America, Japan and any other conflict out of it.

    Thanks. :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Well, we do have a slight digression going on about the role of intent as applied to war or self-protection, as in the Tibetan case. (I'm selling ringside seats to this one! ;) )
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    Dakini, this was located for me by someone I posed the question to.

    "Thus it is wrong to kill, no matter what the circumstances. However, the Buddha recognizes that there is a difference between killing out of rage or jealousy and killing in self-defence. The first is completely wrong while the second can be what he called ‘mixed’ (vītimissa),i.e. a mixture of different degrees of wrong and right (M.I,318)."

    http://buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=82
    (The whole site is interesting).

    But the fact is and the fact remains, any action should be conducted Mindfully. And as the Buddha speaks many times on killing being wrong, and that the only thing one should kill being Anger, I think killing anger but just knocking somebody out mindfully, is acceptable.

    The Shaolin Monks seem to have no qualms about their skills, and I personally know of some people who have been 'slapped up de head' by a Lama or Guru for being ludicrously dense....

    The Buddha does state the case, in the Maha-parinibbana sutta, that Protecting and Guarding is a worthwhile enterprise....I would imagine 'Protecting and Guarding' would not be an entirely passive activity....

    "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis duly protect and guard the arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm yet might do so, and those who have already come might live there in peace?"
    "I have heard, Lord, that they do."
    "So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline."

    From here:

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html


  • I remembered watching this documentary about pre-liberated Tibet on CCTV when I visited China. Well it all depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on...

    A 30-min video in all called 'Liberating The Serfs'.

    Lotsie, I meant to thank you for that documentary link by the way. I haven't watched it yet because I noticed there are three parts and I want to sit down and watch the whole thing a little later, but thanks!

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    "Thus it is wrong to kill, no matter what the circumstances. However, the Buddha recognizes that there is a difference between killing out of rage or jealousy and killing in self-defence. The first is completely wrong while the second can be what he called ‘mixed’ (vītimissa),i.e. a mixture of different degrees of wrong and right (M.I,318)."

    http://buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=82
    (The whole site is interesting).

    But the fact is and the fact remains, any action should be conducted Mindfully. And as the Buddha speaks many times on killing being wrong, and that the only thing one should kill being Anger, I think killing anger but just knocking somebody out mindfully, is acceptable.

    The Shaolin Monks seem to have no qualms about their skills, and I personally know of some people who have been 'slapped up de head' by a Lama or Guru for being ludicrously dense....

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html
    Fascinating, thank you for the research. And yes, I gather that self-defense is ok, because it's done mindfully, not willy-nilly, out of control. hopefully. But the Chinese weren't invading out of rage or jealousy. I mean, to a certain extent, we're splitting hairs. but it's an interesting passage, anyway.

    And there's the warrior monk tradition that continues in the Tibetan monasteries. I'm not familiar with the Shaolin Monks. I also know someone who was hit hard over the head by a lama, for not bowing down low enough to him. It wasn't a skillful practice; the student was upset by it, and felt there's no room for physical violence in buddhism. Teachers would do well to rememmber that it's not uncommon for students to have a history of childhood abuse, so teachers' actions can have unintended and lasting effects. another good argument to avoid violence.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Lotsie, I meant to thank you for that documentary link by the way. I haven't watched it yet because I noticed there are three parts and I want to sit down and watch the whole thing a little later, but thanks!
    Same here. i suspect this video could be the subject of its own thread. Looking forward to viewing it. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    The research has done me much good also.
    I came across this "blog" in my research and it's extremely interesting....

    http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2010/03/kamma-and-dhamma-of-killing-bed-bugs.html
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I deal with bugs via prevention--always the best route. But if I were a hotel manager and suddenly found the premesis to be overrun? Well...I'd better read that blog, first! ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    A fairly senior person on another forum found me this:

    "74. Should any bhikkhu, angered and displeased, give a blow to (another) bhikkhu, it is to be confessed.

    The factors for the full offense here are three.

    * 1) Object: another bhikkhu.
    * 2) Effort: One gives him a blow
    * 3) Intention: out of anger.

    Non-offenses. According to the Vibhaṅga, there is no offence for a bhikkhu who, trapped in a difficult situation, gives a blow "desiring freedom." The Commentary's discussion of this point shows that it includes what we at present would call self-defense; and the K/Commentary's analysis of the factors of the offense here shows that even if anger or displeasure arises in one's mind in cases like this, there is no penalty.

    Summary: Giving a blow to another bhikkhu when impelled by anger — except in self-defense — is a pācittiya offense.

    And another important point to the above is that that is the rule for monks. How much more leeway might lay people have? Not to kill of course, but certainly protect for self-defence."
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    This is great stuff. is there some way to transfer your principle posts on this topic to the "Defending the Innocent" thread?
  • Okay, that bed bug thing really got me going.... I'm starting a new thread on that. :D
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    China v Tibet...a worldly situation with no resolution in sight. Its a good obect to turn your mind to as a tool for developing compassion but if you turn your mind to it and develop anger then it defeats the purpose of Buddhas intent.
    I much prefer Dharma to all this politics. :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    But politics sometimes forces one (even entire nations, as in the case of Tibet) to test one's devotion to and interpretation of the dharma. Challenging real-life examples sometimes intrude upon our otherwise relatively routine lives. Life (and sometimes politics) is inseparable from the Dharma, no?
    I musch prefer Dharma to all this politics.
  • I agree with Dakini. I think it's all interrelated.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I agree with Dakini. I think it's all interrelated.

    Yay! Please, Cloud, pretty please??? :o
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Please what? I'm confuzzled...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Please what? I'm confuzzled...

    Oh....it appears that laurajean and I got two threads confused. Pretty please can we talk about the schism between schools (sorry, wrong thread...??)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    I'm sure someone can make a thread, and it'll probably be okay as long as it's not biased against one school or another or oriented towards offense.

    No guarantees, I've seen less than that go down the drain...
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    Please what? I'm confuzzled...

    Oh....it appears that laurajean and I got two threads confused. Pretty please can we talk about the schism between schools (sorry, wrong thread...??)
    @Cloud, seconded.
    Talk about schisms by all means, in another thread....
    Just don't create any.
    This is great stuff. is there some way to transfer your principle posts on this topic to the "Defending the Innocent" thread?
    Currently, no.
    Put a thread reference, but transfer cannot be done.....
    Besides, transferring posts 'en masse' causes great confusion. People find it difficult to recollect original locations. Reference is fine. Transference, less so...


  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited March 2011
    But politics sometimes forces one (even entire nations, as in the case of Tibet) to test one's devotion to and interpretation of the dharma. Challenging real-life examples sometimes intrude upon our otherwise relatively routine lives. Life (and sometimes politics) is inseparable from the Dharma, no?
    I much prefer Dharma to all this politics.
    There is some truth to what you say difficult circumstances are perfect conditions for practise ! In fact when one can demonstrate Bodhisattva ethics and practise in the face of adversity practise without adversity will become so easy :)
    You can find Dharma everywhere however there is a mandate for renunciation to be applied so we can focus our practise on Dharma there are alot of people who think Tibet is A Dharma issue but even the Dalai lama trys ( and sometimes unsucessfully ) makes a distinction between what is political issue and what is a Dharma issue, As with anything it depends upon how you turn your mind to it of course If you continually search for awnsers to mundane affairs you find its a never ending road to Samsara !
  • I am really not even looking at this as "buddhist" or "politics". My friend and I were talking about what's happening in Isreal and somehow the topic of China came up, when I discovered that he knew nothing about the situation between China and Tibet. I just wanted a good article for him to read, it wasn't even coming from a Buddhist perspective. I just wanted him to be educated on it, being a worldly issue. That's all my original post was meant for.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    That's all my original post was meant for.
    Yeah, we digressed a little, laurajean. But it was an interesting digression.
  • The documentary is clearly propaganda; notice how they spend a good chunk of time talking about how the Western countries abolished slavery long ago ,as if to justify their invasion of Tibet to liberate the serfs by saying the Chinese were just applying international humanitarian norms. Why do they have to try so hard to justify a supposedly humanitarian act?

    And it's not true that 95% of the Tibetan population was in serfdom, The nomads weren't serfs. Being nomadic, they were independent. Though they probably got taxed in some fashion. Sadly, though, the serfdom and other forms of exploitation did happen.
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