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What Do Buddhists Believe About Jesus' "Lost Years" In His Youth?
Well, I say "what's good enough for Ajahn Brahm, is good enough for us", in spite of his topic having no connection to our practice. :rolleyes: I have to agree with Dakini here; there are many topics that have been explored on this forum, some of them my own, with regard to historicity of suttras and other issues of suttric scholarship, historical questions pertaining to the Buddha, to give a few examples, that are worth exploring from an intellectual standpoint. Members who require for their own needs topics that are relevant to practice can simply move along to the topics of their choice, without making snide remarks about someone's choice of OP. This has been a pet peeve of mine since I joined; rude put-downs ( any putdown is by nature rude) of others' OPs. If a topic doesn't meet your interests or criteria, whatever those may be, just move on and let others enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes right speech is about keeping one's comments to oneself.
I just read this article below on this about a book on this subject. It sounds more of a novel than anything else. But who knows Maybe the catholic church don't want people to know that Jesus went to India, so they are hiding the evidence. :scratch: just a thought
Im surprised Dan Brown hasn't wrote a book on this
I've read a couple of interesting books on this subject. While there is of course no hard evidence of anything related to the life of Jesus (nor of the Buddha for that matter), there is some very convincing circumstantial evidence to point to the fact that he probably was exposed to Buddhist teachings, even if he may not have actually traveled to India. There's every chance he actually did travel there.
But in the end, we'll never ever know one way or the other.
Maybe the catholic church don't want people to know that Jesus went to India, so they are hiding the evidence. :scratch: just a thought Im surprised Dan Brown hasn't wrote a book on this http://www.wolflodge.org/sananda/lost-years-of-jesus.htm
haha! Gee, ya think, Z? Of course they're hiding any evidence! If Jesus turned out to be "just a guy" going around giving teachings and healings, not the Son of God, then that wouldn't be Christianity exactly, it...might be....Buddhism!
Who is Dan Brown?
Great stuff, DD, thanks. It sounds like he's talking about Notovich, though (the broken leg, and recovery in Hemis), even though he refers to him as German, and trekking in the 1940's. Strangely parallel story.
Maybe the catholic church don't want people to know that Jesus went to India, so they are hiding the evidence. :scratch: just a thought Im surprised Dan Brown hasn't wrote a book on this http://www.wolflodge.org/sananda/lost-years-of-jesus.htm
haha! Gee, ya think, Z? Of course they're hiding any evidence! If Jesus turned out to be "just a guy" going around giving teachings and healings, not the Son of God, then that wouldn't be Christianity exactly, it...might be....Buddhism!
Who is Dan Brown?
Great stuff, DD, thanks. It sounds like he's talking about Notovich, though (the broken leg, and recovery in Hemis), even though he refers to him as German, and trekking in the 1940's. Strangely parallel story.
I can't believe the catholic church would do that, they are nice people they don't tell lies. :thumbsup:
Dan brown, you really don't know who he is ? I think you must be joking right ?
Staying on topic (well maybe :rolleyes: ) Some Muslims think that Muhammad is the future Buddha Maitreya, the claim is refuted in this blog I came across.
Dan brown, you really don't know who he is ? I think you must be joking right ?
OK, you embarrassed me into looking him up online. Yes, I've read the DaVinci Code, but didn't fixate on the author's name. You know, I think it best if he didn't write about this, because then it would be even more difficult to get credibility for the issue. Look at how difficult it's been just on this thread to put forward the idea that serious research (DNA testing, etc.) needs to be done.
Z, you asked about the Hemis Monastery manuscript. I did a little research on the internet, and some people think it never existed. Someone even posted a yarn about how they went to the monastery themselves and asked about the manuscript and the abbot groaned and everyone else laughed, and said "Westerners ALWAYS come here asking about that!" So I welcome Ajahn Brahm's input and openmindedness. And I stick by my story that George Roerich found the text, translated it, and sent press releases on it to US newspapers in the 1930's. So as far as I'm concerned, the matter is still open for further investigation.
Share away, Z. An open mind is always appreciated. I just found on Amazon a book by a Muslim author discussing "Issa"s life in India. He apparently is a saint in the Muslim tradition.
Well, that's not the point. The point is that according to reviewers, the author brings some convincing evidence to bear on the issue. We're not going to find evidence in Christian sources, that's for sure, so we have to look at Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim sources.
Well, that's not the point. The point is that according to reviewers, the author brings some convincing evidence to bear on the issue. We're not going to find evidence in Christian sources, that's for sure, so we have to look at Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim sources.
Yes this may be true,
I was just making that point that Im sure a lot of other religions believe that founders of other religions were actually from their religion, for example people who follow Cao Dai think this.
But your right there is some evidence for this theory that Jesus went to India, tough I would say that it is by no means conclusive, more circumstantial and hear say, from what I have read.
@Dakini By the time I took your PM bait, there were a;ready a number ( !) of replies. Time to add my own on this Easter afternoon.
As you say, the Gospels are silent on Jesus's childhood, from circumcision to baptism (in itself an interesting litrerary device), apart from the curious incident when he was 12. The non-canonbical books have miraculous tales similar to those about Herakles or other heroes. Even Buddhism has biog legends about Gotama. It's a characteristic development of legend.
@dorje: The connection with Egypt is mentioned, and not just for 'prophetic' reasons, in the Nativity story. I think we can assume that Judaeans would be well aware of Galilee's position as a crossroads and staging post to and from the greatest city in the Near East and repository of wisdom that was Alexandria, where there was a flourtishing Jewish community. The story of the Flight Into Egypt does not specify how old Jesus was when it was safe to return and, as we can see, they return to Galilee and not Judaea, remaining 'internal migrants'.
Elsewhere I have mentioned that the Galilee was a Hellenised area with many Greek and quasi-Greek schools of philosophy. As we know that Buddhist monks reached Alexandria, it is quite possible that they travelled through the Galilee on their journey. I like to imagine that Thomas had conversations with some of them, absorbed something of their teaching and that was what sent him to take the Good News to India - and explains some of the logia in the Gospel of Thomas.
*******
Nobody has mentioned that there are European legends about the childhood and youth of Jesus which include, among their most famous, the story that he came to England on a trading mission with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, landing at Glastonbury.
*******
On the more general note as to whether this is an appropriate subject for a 'Buddhist' discussion board, my attitude is "why not?" It's not as if there is any shortage of topics about Buddhisms and Buddhistness (a neologism I may well adopt). We have welcomed newcomoers with coffee and cake, describing this site in terms of a homely home and garden. It contains more than the shrine and the schoolroom. There must be some corner where we can share 'sheer sh*t' as we did when we were students.
Apparently there is a theory that Jesus joined the Essenes in the Dead Sea area as a monk or separatist in his lost years. Read more about that theory and the india one here
This book which I think is readable online seems to talk about the connection between Buddhism and the Essenes, I should say that I have not read it, I might do so latter when I have time, but maybe Jesus did not have to go to India to get Buddhist influences, maybe Buddhists influences were already in Palestine at the time of Jesus.
Apparently there is a theory that Jesus joined the Essenes in the Dead Sea area as a monk or separatist in his lost years. Read more about that theory and the india one here
who knows for sure what he did and where he went. Strong evidence for any conclusion is still to be found, in my opinion.
With Metta
The Aztecs and the Mayans did not need Egyptians to teach them to build pyramids. Why do we imagine that similarity means influence? If we believe that the Dharma is 'true', it comes as little surprise that others, elsewhere on the globe, glimpsed it as well.
The forum needs a balance. If it was all variety threads with the buddhism threads burried I would not read it. If it were all buddhism threads it wouldn't be as varied and interesting. We are not just discussing buddhism but we are buddhists discussing life.
Personally I like the balance towards buddhism, but I also enjoy participation in others such as the milk thread was enjoyable.
Calling a thread not relevant to practice is just somebodies observation. I do think the indignation that there be a thread that they are not partial to so they deride it is laughable. But commenting in many threads "hey why are you even worried about this its BS" is a good comment. If there are too many comments of one type it is called piling on and not fun. Oh I strongly object to people trying to silence certain types of threads because they don't like them. I think Dakini (correct me if wrong) is responding to that fear or attitude. There is a distinction between teasing a thread and trying to suppress one.
Another type of thread I am opposed to silencing is self help threads, though different reasons between.
I agree Jeffrey, If someone does not want to contribute to a thread then don't, its as simple as that, there is no need to mock it or question the point of it. I mean there is a reason why there are different categories for threads, it filters the subjects out so a person knows the kind of thing they will see if they read a thread in a certain category. I like letting of steam about politics and so on on this forum, regardless if no one replies or gives their point of view, and I think many others on the forum like doing this, so whats wrong with that ? Nothing I would say.
Also I learn a lot about subjects such as milk that I would never have the motivation to learn otherwise current events and general topics are an important part of this forum for me.
The Aztecs and the Mayans did not need Egyptians to teach them to build pyramids. Why do we imagine that similarity means influence? If we believe that the Dharma is 'true', it comes as little surprise that others, elsewhere on the globe, glimpsed it as well.
The truth generally resembles itself.
I could not agree more, However, you have to admit its intriguing doing a little bit of research into mysteries like this. But as I mentioned earlier evidence is very lacking on the theories suggested and your view seems the most likely to me (i.e Jesus had no Buddhist influence).
My personal belief: Jesus, like others, was a great teacher. Did he study in India? Possible. Was he visited by someone of another belief? Also possible. What is important is that he taught great lessons that are very simular to Buddha's teachings. But I also believe that any & all the teachings, no matter the teacher, can be built upon or added to. Life is about change & adjusting to it while also staying true to your basic teachings.
Nobody has mentioned that there are European legends about the childhood and youth of Jesus which include, among their most famous, the story that he came to England on a trading mission with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, landing at Glastonbury.
You're right, Simon. I'm aware of those legends, but since my favorite theory is that he went East (I want to double-check the Roerichs' research of the Hemis text, now that some doubt about its existence has come up), I've been avoiding mention of the "he went West" theory. Besides, the OP narrows the topic to whether there are any legends or records among Buddhists of Jesus' travel East, and specifically to the "lost years", though we've strayed a bit from that to include his post-crucifixion years as well.
The forum needs a balance. . We are not just discussing buddhism but we are buddhists discussing life.
Personally I like the balance towards buddhism, but I also enjoy participation in others such as the milk thread was enjoyable.
Well, this is the thing. No one ever comes onto the general banter and other non-Buddhist topics to say "this doesn't contribute to furthering our practice". They seem to zero in on topics that are Buddhist, but of an analytical or historical nature, or that are tangentially Buddhist, like this one. So there's an inconsistency and a selectivity going on with these criticisms or comments that I don't understand. Milk, or Canadian elections, for another example, is a topic no more relevant to practice than Jesus' possible connection with Buddhism. As a Buddhist, I find the possibility that Buddhism may have influenced other religions (Sufism, for another example) quite intriguing. It seems like a perfectly appropriate topic for a Buddhist forum.
I mean there is a reason why there are different categories for threads, it filters the subjects out so a person knows the kind of thing they will see if they read a thread in a certain category.
You'd think this would be obvious. The categories exist in order to allow diversity of topics, including discussion of other religions, current events, or miscellaneous topics.
I agree, Max. Jesus was ONE of the great teachers of mankind.
This is the position among Buddhists, AFAIK. HHDL and his many colleagues say this.
Thanks for all the links, zidangus--lots of material to check out.:) I think it's possible he learned about Buddhism without straying far from home, or he could've learned about it in Egypt. But if there were Buddhists in Palestine (or if Jesus studied with them in Alexandria) you'd think there might be some oral (or written?) history about that on the Buddhist side. Oh well--all of this is conjecture, we may never know, it may be as Simon says; no Buddhist influence.
who knows for sure what he did and where he went. Strong evidence for any conclusion is still to be found, in my opinion.
If the Hemis Monastery text exists, or existed, that would be strong evidence.
Hear, hear, for thread topic diversity (and for respect for same). :thumbsup: Thanks, gang.
As a fan of Nicholas Roerich, I would point out that he was not the author of this (possible? probable? fraudulent) text. It was Nicolas Novotich, a quite different and far less credible witness.
WOW! What a gift, Simon--I haven't read the whole of your second link, but it says the Hemis text states that Jesus was killd by the Israelites, so therefor one concludes that (contrary to some other reports) the manuscript only deals with Jesus' "lost years", not with his life in India after the crucifixion.
This bears more research. But Notovich didn't write the Hemis text, he was the first Westerner of record to discover it. Apparently it's a translation of a Pali version in Lhasa.
This is turning into quite a project, with the links, but also recommended books to follow up on.
Personally, I suspect that it is more 19th century orientalist bollocks. Until there is useful archaeology, I shall file it along with "Jesus was a spaceman".
Personally, I suspect that it is more 19th century orientalist bollocks. Until there is useful archaeology, I shall file it along with "Jesus was a spaceman".
ha, well, your choice. I'm intrigued. And the Roerichs were 20th Century. In any case, thank you for the links.
Personally, I suspect that it is more 19th century orientalist bollocks. Until there is useful archaeology, I shall file it along with "Jesus was a spaceman".
ha, well, your choice. I'm intrigued. And the Roerichs were 20th Century. In any case, thank you for the links.
As I have pointed out, Roerich is not involved in this. Of course you are right, 19th century orientalism extended into the 20th as evidenced by Alice Bailey et al.
And we should not forget Mme Blavatsky! "It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky, All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi." (Louis MacNeice)
*sigh* You're right, Simon. For all the respect I have for Roerich (and son, who translated the Hemis text), the family's association with Blavatsky really gives me pause. But they were products of their time: Blavatsky and Gurjieff were all the rage at the turn of the 19th-20th century. And Helena Roerich had some sort of psychic abilities, or was convinced she did. This sort of thing has deep roots in Russian mysticism, you know. Ah well--nobody's perfect.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
believe what you will about the urantia book, but imo, it seems just as likely credible as the bible.
Its not as credible. One was written (at least parts of it) 100 years after the death of Jesus. The Urantia book was written 1,891 years after the death of jesus.
what i meant was, a lot of the biblical stories involve God/the angels directly interacting with man. for me, you need a real leap of faith to believe in this. the urantia book is supposedly written as a result of angels interacting with man, albeit more recently. it seems inconsistent to believe in the biblical stories and not be open to the possibility that perhaps the divine has attempted to contact us again. just because something is old does not make it true.
but i should say, i'm not trying to argue the merit of the urantia book. i'm pretty unconcerned with both the urantia book and the bible. i only brought it up because it seemed to fit in the topic and thought some here might find it interesting.
Well personally speaking John Prine sums up my beliefs about Christ's "lost years" in the song 'Jesus: the Missing Years'.
In all seriousness however I've not really given much thought to his supposed travels in the east, but considering the time and region he lived in I do think it's possible that he may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings.
Comments
Maybe the catholic church don't want people to know that Jesus went to India, so they are hiding the evidence. :scratch: just a thought
Im surprised Dan Brown hasn't wrote a book on this
http://www.wolflodge.org/sananda/lost-years-of-jesus.htm
With Metta
Does anyone else know much about this ?
http://the-wanderling.com/hemis.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch
With Metta
But in the end, we'll never ever know one way or the other.
Who is Dan Brown?
Great stuff, DD, thanks. It sounds like he's talking about Notovich, though (the broken leg, and recovery in Hemis), even though he refers to him as German, and trekking in the 1940's. Strangely parallel story.
Dan brown, you really don't know who he is ? I think you must be joking right ?
With Metta
Some Muslims think that Muhammad is the future Buddha Maitreya, the claim is refuted in this blog I came across.
http://defendingbuddhism.blogspot.com/2008/12/muhammad-is-not-maitreya.html
anyway thought I would share
With Metta
Z, you asked about the Hemis Monastery manuscript. I did a little research on the internet, and some people think it never existed. Someone even posted a yarn about how they went to the monastery themselves and asked about the manuscript and the abbot groaned and everyone else laughed, and said "Westerners ALWAYS come here asking about that!" So I welcome Ajahn Brahm's input and openmindedness. And I stick by my story that George Roerich found the text, translated it, and sent press releases on it to US newspapers in the 1930's. So as far as I'm concerned, the matter is still open for further investigation.
Share away, Z. An open mind is always appreciated. I just found on Amazon a book by a Muslim author discussing "Issa"s life in India. He apparently is a saint in the Muslim tradition.
Only kidding, I think it would not be hard to find such websites anyway.
With Metta
I was just making that point that Im sure a lot of other religions believe that founders of other religions were actually from their religion, for example people who follow Cao Dai think this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Dai
But your right there is some evidence for this theory that Jesus went to India, tough I would say that it is by no means conclusive, more circumstantial and hear say, from what I have read.
With Metta
By the time I took your PM bait, there were a;ready a number ( !) of replies. Time to add my own on this Easter afternoon.
As you say, the Gospels are silent on Jesus's childhood, from circumcision to baptism (in itself an interesting litrerary device), apart from the curious incident when he was 12. The non-canonbical books have miraculous tales similar to those about Herakles or other heroes. Even Buddhism has biog legends about Gotama. It's a characteristic development of legend.
@dorje:
The connection with Egypt is mentioned, and not just for 'prophetic' reasons, in the Nativity story. I think we can assume that Judaeans would be well aware of Galilee's position as a crossroads and staging post to and from the greatest city in the Near East and repository of wisdom that was Alexandria, where there was a flourtishing Jewish community. The story of the Flight Into Egypt does not specify how old Jesus was when it was safe to return and, as we can see, they return to Galilee and not Judaea, remaining 'internal migrants'.
Elsewhere I have mentioned that the Galilee was a Hellenised area with many Greek and quasi-Greek schools of philosophy. As we know that Buddhist monks reached Alexandria, it is quite possible that they travelled through the Galilee on their journey. I like to imagine that Thomas had conversations with some of them, absorbed something of their teaching and that was what sent him to take the Good News to India - and explains some of the logia in the Gospel of Thomas.
*******
Nobody has mentioned that there are European legends about the childhood and youth of Jesus which include, among their most famous, the story that he came to England on a trading mission with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, landing at Glastonbury.
*******
On the more general note as to whether this is an appropriate subject for a 'Buddhist' discussion board, my attitude is "why not?" It's not as if there is any shortage of topics about Buddhisms and Buddhistness (a neologism I may well adopt). We have welcomed newcomoers with coffee and cake, describing this site in terms of a homely home and garden. It contains more than the shrine and the schoolroom. There must be some corner where we can share 'sheer sh*t' as we did when we were students.
Read more about that theory and the india one here
http://www.hcna.us/columns/30years.html
who knows for sure what he did and where he went. Strong evidence for any conclusion is still to be found, in my opinion.
With Metta
http://www.archive.org/stream/buddhisminchrist00lilluoft#page/n9/mode/2up
Anyway again I thought I would share the link
With Metta
The truth generally resembles itself.
Personally I like the balance towards buddhism, but I also enjoy participation in others such as the milk thread was enjoyable.
Calling a thread not relevant to practice is just somebodies observation. I do think the indignation that there be a thread that they are not partial to so they deride it is laughable. But commenting in many threads "hey why are you even worried about this its BS" is a good comment. If there are too many comments of one type it is called piling on and not fun. Oh I strongly object to people trying to silence certain types of threads because they don't like them. I think Dakini (correct me if wrong) is responding to that fear or attitude. There is a distinction between teasing a thread and trying to suppress one.
Another type of thread I am opposed to silencing is self help threads, though different reasons between.
:clap:
If someone does not want to contribute to a thread then don't, its as simple as that, there is no need to mock it or question the point of it.
I mean there is a reason why there are different categories for threads, it filters the subjects out so a person knows the kind of thing they will see if they read a thread in a certain category. I like letting of steam about politics and so on on this forum, regardless if no one replies or gives their point of view, and I think many others on the forum like doing this, so whats wrong with that ? Nothing I would say.
Also I learn a lot about subjects such as milk that I would never have the motivation to learn otherwise current events and general topics are an important part of this forum for me.
With Metta
With Metta
Thanks for all the links, zidangus--lots of material to check out.:) I think it's possible he learned about Buddhism without straying far from home, or he could've learned about it in Egypt. But if there were Buddhists in Palestine (or if Jesus studied with them in Alexandria) you'd think there might be some oral (or written?) history about that on the Buddhist side. Oh well--all of this is conjecture, we may never know, it may be as Simon says; no Buddhist influence. If the Hemis Monastery text exists, or existed, that would be strong evidence.
Hear, hear, for thread topic diversity (and for respect for same). :thumbsup: Thanks, gang.
These links may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch
http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_unknown_life.asp
As the Hemis gompa exists, one may wonder why the alleged manuscript has not been produced.
This bears more research. But Notovich didn't write the Hemis text, he was the first Westerner of record to discover it. Apparently it's a translation of a Pali version in Lhasa.
This is turning into quite a project, with the links, but also recommended books to follow up on.
And we should not forget Mme Blavatsky!
"It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky,
All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi." (Louis MacNeice)
but i should say, i'm not trying to argue the merit of the urantia book. i'm pretty unconcerned with both the urantia book and the bible. i only brought it up because it seemed to fit in the topic and thought some here might find it interesting.
In all seriousness however I've not really given much thought to his supposed travels in the east, but considering the time and region he lived in I do think it's possible that he may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings.