HELL REALMS DEBATE

Dakini

Are they real places where we may end up after death if we're not careful, or are they states of mind we may experience during life? Or both? What did the Buddha teach? What do different traditions teach? What does the Pali Canon really say? Does it matter what the Pali says, or are the hell teachings an outside influence?

From Bhikku Bodhi: "There is no doubt that the texts intend hell to be understood as a separate realm of existence distinct from the human realm, and as real to its inhabitants as our world is to us. Note that they describe rebirth into the other realms as occurring 'with the dissolution of the body, after death' (kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa) ... There is no evidence at all in the texts that they intend the hell realms to be just metaphors for extremely painful experiences here in the human world."

From some of his colleagues: The realms are states of mind we experience in life


From Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda: In Buddhism, hell is taught both as a state of mind during our lifetime, and as a place, or plane of existence, temporarily visited after death http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm

According to the Berzin Archives, a rich resource on Tibetan Buddhist teachings, the realms are real. The Kalachakra tradition teaches a cosmology in which there are "...eight hot realms and eight joyless [cold] realms (hells), with each of the hot realms having four neighboring joyless realms on each of its four sides. The hot joyless realms are located below Bodh Gaya, India, while the cold joyless realms are located below Tibet."

The Lamrim teaches "there are four different states or realms of hells (joyless realms): hot, cold, neighboring and occasional hells. To further subdivide these, there are eight different hot hells. The first of these is known as the Reviving Hell ... one of the least suffering, relatively speaking. To understand the level of misery here, the pain of a person caught in a great fire would be very slight in comparison..."
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level2_lamrim/overview/general/following_dharma_avoiding_suffering.html

Some of the TB teachings on hells and other realms are not taken directly from the sutras, according to info on these online archives, they are taken from later commentary by Buddhist scholars after the Buddha's death. According to Stephen Batchelor, the Buddha, in fact, didn't go into great detail in the teachings on hell, but there are a few passages in the Pali texts in which he describes hell as a real place. Batchelor, true to form, says there was a basic concept of hell in India before and during the time of the Buddha, and that this is the source of the Buddha's ideas on the realms (or of some later scribe's ideas). He believes the hell and god realms are of a later influence on the Pali Canon.

What were you taught about the hell realms? What was the basis of the teachings you received? Let us know your teacher's perspective, whatever the tradition you participate in. This is not a contest, this is a learning opportunity for newbies and not-so-newbies alike. We can all deepen our understanding of how these teachings evolved, the multiplicity of authoritative sources on the subject, and the diversity of opinions. Let the games begin! :vimp:

Jason

Well, regardless or whether they're real in the sense of "places where we may end up after death," I think it should be noted that when the Buddha talks about hell (niraya), he's often talking about unpleasant or painful painful mental feelings "like those of the beings in hell" (AN 4.235). Personally, I think the Buddha held a more nuanced position than a lot traditionalists believe. For example, David Kalupahana notes in his book, Buddhist Philosophy, that:

A careful study of these concepts of heaven and hell, gods and evil spirits, reveals that they were accepted in Buddhism as regulative ideas or concepts only. The fact that they are merely theories based on speculation is well brought out it certain statements by the Buddha. To a Brahman who questioned the Buddha as to whether there are gods, he replied, "It is not so." When asked whether there are no gods, the Buddha's reply was the same, "It is not so." And finally to the Brahman who was baffled by these replies, the Buddha said, "The world, O Brahman, is loud in agreement that there are gods" (ucce sammatam kho etam brahmana lokasmin yadidam atthi devati). The same is the attitude of the Buddha with regard to the concept of hell. In the Samyutta-nikaya he is represented as saying that it is only the uneducated ordinary man (assutava puthujjano) who believes that there is a hell beneath the great ocean. According to the Buddha's view, hell is another name for unpleasant feelings (dukkha vedana). [The first reference is MN 2.213, the second is S 4.206]

Just something to think about.

Dakini

This is exactly why I posted this, thank you, Jason! _/\_ Great to have those precious sutric references.

I know there are teachings in Tibetan Buddhism that parallel what you say, but I haven't been able to find them. @Jeffrey posted them once, I'm hoping he will again.

taiyaki

hell is as real as anything else.

to an ignorant mind hellish projections create much fear and anxiety.
not knowing to be a projection that is empty and luminous the mind becomes confused.

to a wise mind hellish projections are seen through. just dependently originated mirages. vividly appearing to be real, but lacking any inherency.

to those who do not have wisdom, hell and heaven are absolutely real.

to those who stare directly at hell and heaven, find that they do not endure under the flashlight of awareness.

in tantric buddhism practitioners project an image of a wrathful deity. seeing such deity as both empty and luminous and a projection from the mind. the purpose is to not get caught up in the form, but to see that all appearance are of the same essence, which is the lack of essence. nothing to fear because there is no ground to hold onto.

so if one finds themselves in a hell realm (in either of the 6 senses). remember though it may seem real and you may convince yourself that it is, its all a projection from you. see that directly and watch it dissolve.

DharmaField

One thought - heaven, one thought - hell. That is the way of the mind, eg. S/he loves me, s/he hates me; I am good, I am bad ...

But, who is in heaven and who is in hell? That is why we need a daily practice.

The recent story of the family who became convinced their brother was a witch and tortured him - this seems like hell.

see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8994982/Teenager-killed-by-relatives-who-believed-he-was-a-witch.html

I am not convinced we can see it as simply the result of cause and effect, as I can't see where the cause begins and where does the effects end? The so called law of karma does not account for the uneven distribution of suffering in this world, and I don't beleive that black's suffer because of their sins in past lives, but rather for a whole range of reasons including the indifference of the world. If my family tortured me, I would find my practice tested to its limit - would I suffer each moment mindfully? - I can't say. In end the end we all die, and in that sense we are all in hell. So each of us must face our own suffering, through each agonistic moment, but knowing deeply that the light of the dharma is always present - good or bad - is a refuge. We all suffer with poor Kristy.

person

If we believe in another life after this one can we be reborn as an animal or only as a human? Can we be reborn on another planet in another form of life?

I don't know if hell is a different plane of existence that occurs exactly like it says in the texts or maybe life on another planet would have different conditions for life that would be more hellish. Or maybe rebirth can occur in a bacteria living in a boiling hot pool of water where we can feel the heat as pain.

If we move our existence beyond this one life is it really that much of a stretch to imagine vastly different lives.

Being a sci-fi fan I always imagined the god realms as being advanced civilizations. There's something called a wish granting jewel that exists in the god realms, it sounded something like a replicator from Star Trek.

Dakini

This is cool, person. You could be right. All of the above and more could be the case. And definitely, we can regress and be reborn as animals, for sure. So mind your P's and Q's.

Brian

I moved this to Advanced Ideas. This is not "Buddhism for Beginners"

Dakini

I moved this to Advanced Ideas. This is not "Buddhism for Beginners"

OK. I put it there because just a couple of weeks ago, someone had a thread in B4Beginners asking "are the realms real?" Maybe it's the depth of this discussion that warrants "Advanced Ideas"? I don't care, I just wish I could aim better.

Dandelion

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf

This makes for an interesting read, if a little terrifying :hair:

Dandelion

One thing I don't understand is this; most (not all, but most) of the NDE stories we hear about are from people stating that they went to somewhere marvellous (or pleasant, at least), if we think in terms of realms, what realm would we say all these people go and visit? Do you think they just have a 'taster' session of a possibility? Or, do we only hear about the positive near death experiences because hearing too much of the bad experiences would be too difficult to take? I'm amazed that so many people are having wonderful N.D.E is what I'm getting at, I would have thought that there would be a much bigger variety of N.D.E being spoken about, especially since it is very difficult to even be born into the human realm, as it is.. seems like most of us are doing well and going somewhere pretty awesome after this life time! My little brain wants to understand this more :scratch:

DaltheJigsaw

Great thread !Thanks everyone!

DharmaField

Good point Danelion, how might we as contemporary Buddhist's deal with contradictory evidence? Do we ditch reincarnation or revise our views. Cognitive science would also suggest that who we are as an individual is hard-wired into our synapses, we know that if we cut these away there is major loss and even personality changes. So, without our synapses what is left that could be reincarnated would barely be anything like the original us to go to hell realm.

I hope that all beings return to the light, but clearly we are learning more and should be open to what we find.

Cinorjer

My own personal take is that, yes, most Buddhists in the past and at least some in the present believe in a whole pantheon of Hellish and Heavenly realms and various supernatural beings, good and bad. I don't try to rationalize that these monks who wrote the sutras or the many Buddhists who believe "if a sutra says it, then it must be true" only think of this a metaphorical. I tend to take them at their word.

But Buddhism did not spring from nothing, and it did not arrive fully grown and clothed in language that turned it from a simple observation about why people are unhappy into the rich world religion we see today. So the monks who first called themselves Buddhists and the cultures that lived in thought there were various realms that mirrored our natures and behavior? And along with human and animal realms, we could be reincarnated into these various realms? Fascinating, but I prefer to focus on what it means to be Buddhist. Hey, look! That has nothing to do with how many hells or heavens or gods or demons really exist.

So, do the sutras say they exist as someplace real, in the way we exist in our current world? Oh, yes. Could the sutras be wrong in this case? I think so. What sets me up as an authority of metaphysics? Nothing. All I have is my opinion.

Jeffrey

I think it depends on your karma which teachings you receive. Karma being what kind of connections you have. This is pretty obvious granted that different things are taught.

My teacher teaches that at death there is karma and that determines what realm you are reborn into. If I recall at least . The connections with other beings also come into play.

So this world and all other worlds are brought about by karma. I believe thich nhat hanh or dalai lama or somebody famous was asked what created the world. By a christian. They said karma. When asked then what created karma they said ignorance.

So I would urge people to look into the dimension of ignorance/wisdom rather than in the dimension of metaphysics. Make your life/practice more useful than sectarianism. Please!

craigpoff

Didn't seem to matter much to me, physical place or not, as (maybe I am still thinking like a Christian, after all they "had me" for many years!) if you live the Dharma, follow the Dharma and practice the Dharma, then Hell is simply something you never have to worry about in the first place!

Dakini

@Dandelion There are reports of NDE's where people went to a hellish place. I think Raymond Moody collected some of those, you could look in his books. But also Kimberly Clark had one or two NDE's, and reports all kinds of interesting things. Some kind of psychic vision opened up for her after her NDE. Her story is fascinating. You could probably find her book by looking her up on Amazon. She's a nurse in Seattle.

@Jeffrey Didn't you have some teachings from your lama about how the realms were mental states? I think teachings for both aspects--physical and mental--are in the Tibetan literature.

Jeffrey

In my experience in Tibetan buddhism the hell realms are especially relevant to the four thoughts that turn the mind.

1 precious human birth


The best method to find Buddhanature is self-examination, to observe what is happening within ourselves. This is better than studying others, because when we look at another's errors we do not see our own, and when we criticize others' faults we feel that we have none. We might even feel that we are perfect. Without self examination we can only remain ignorant and make many mistakes without even knowing it.



2 impermanence

"The second thought in starting to practice the Dharma is understanding that everything is impermanent, even our selves. When we do not examine ourselves we forget this obvious fact, and we act as if we will live forever. We collect as many possessions as possible and try to make hundreds of friends, and we waste our lives. But when we face the inevitability of our death, then we start to wonder what to do about it and how to deal with the uncertainty of life."

3 karma
"Our third thought as we practice is to consider karma, or cause and effect. Karma and its result are infallible. They are like a seed and its fruit. If you plant the seed of a sweet fruit such as an orange, it will grow as an orange tree and produce oranges. The result of a sweet fruit is health, if you plant its seed. If you plant a poisonous seed, it will produce poisonous fruit, and its result will be painful or even life threatening. Karma works in the same way, because if we act negatively now, then in our next life we will experience suffering, illness, pain, and frustration. If we practice the precious actions of body, speech, and mind now, then in our next life we will experience greater happiness and success."


4 suffering

"Yet if we evaluate whether possessions or popularity will help us after death or with a better rebirth, we find that neither does us any good. Clinging to samsaric life is fruitless."

Sile

One thing I don't understand is this; most (not all, but most) of the NDE stories we hear about are from people stating that they went to somewhere marvellous (or pleasant, at least), if we think in terms of realms, what realm would we say all these people go and visit? Do you think they just have a 'taster' session of a possibility? Or, do we only hear about the positive near death experiences because hearing too much of the bad experiences would be too difficult to take? I'm amazed that so many people are having wonderful N.D.E is what I'm getting at, I would have thought that there would be a much bigger variety of N.D.E being spoken about, especially since it is very difficult to even be born into the human realm, as it is.. seems like most of us are doing well and going somewhere pretty awesome after this life time! My little brain wants to understand this more :scratch:

Well, NDEs usually involve being on the "other side" only so long; stands to reason that, at least by Buddhist definitions, a person reviving from an NDE may only have experienced so much of the Bardo--i.e., not all its phases.

But a second and equally (more) important factor imho is that every mind is different and will perceive things differently; even in conscious, waking life, humans can experience a single cause or event as good or bad, depending on the person. The same person can even perceive the same cause/event differently, on different days and in different frames of mind.

I would definitely consider it hopeful, though, that so much light and love gets reported back; couldn't it be the case that, underlying all these events which various people perceive as good or bad, there is a deeper underlying peace that is the ultimate truth? I'd love to think that's one reason so much love and light is reported.

My own friend Nancy passed away last year; she had a very, very long, slow decline. At the end, she remained in a nearly comatose state for two weeks; at one point during this phase, very suddenly and without warning, she sat up and told her sister, "I have an appointment. They're taking me."

About four hours later, she woke up again and announced, "I'm ready to give my speech." Her startled sister grabbed the journal she'd been keeping, and took down Nancy's speech, which was, "All there is is love - love is all there is. He said to tell you. He can't tell you, so I have to tell you."

She kept repeating, over and over, "All there is is love," in many different ways. We never found out who "he" was - her sister asked, but Nancy didn't answer the question.

I tell you what--it's one thing to read about the NDEs, fervently hoping they're all true; and quite another to hear it fairly directly from someone you know and love.

It reminds me quite a bit of the Tibetan delog stories--the person is lead to see a judge of sorts, given messages to take back to the family, shown many things, and then returns to their body.

Jeffrey

@Dakini, I don't recall my teacher controverting the physical nature of the hell realms. She mentioned in a dharma talk that her teachers spoke about them so much and she wondered about that because she didn't feel that teaching helped her so much. She asked her teacher and he said he talked about them so much because he didn't want her to waste her time she had to practice dharma. So I guess he did it to light a fire under her.

My teacher has said that in her teachings she has given quite a bit of thought as to what a western student can benefit from. Again and again she tells her intermediate students to look at the examples from texts and see the intent. So the example in the text might be to be mindful as if a guillotine is suspended by a thread above one's head and a lapse of mindfulness will cause you to become beheaded. So a student that might not work for their practice. But she says to look at the intent and make your own examples which are inspiring for you.

That process of making your own examples I sense is more for intermediate students. For beginner students the start is to begin a meditation practice and find some of the fruits of dharma which also can be motivating.

Jeffrey

Regarding NDE I have read that the white heavenly realm is a manifestation of desire. In the death process desire dissolves and the white blissful realm is the manifestation of that desire as it dissolves.

People also talk of a red firey realm and that realm is the manifestation of anger as it dissolves. (the white realm is believed by some to be heaven whereas the red is hell... which is not true according to this teaching, the truth being the dissolution of desire and anger)

The last realm is a black realm of ignorance but according to my readings if that black realm manifests it is impossible to come back into the world.

After all three poisons have dissolved the clear white light, the true nature which we wake up to, appears. It is said that most people 'pass out' at this time and then the poisons all reform. Advanced meditators can stay conscious and can realize total enlightnement through the clear white light.

My understanding of all of this is a bit confused so it's understandable if anyone else is confused in reading me particularly the last bit.

Dakini

@Jeffrey oh well. There was an earlier thread where you said Lama Shenpen teaches (based on some text or other) that they're states of mind. Oh well. I think those teachings are there, but I haven't found them.

Jeffrey

@Dakini, I believe I relayed the same story from Lama Shenpen. It's HHDL who teaches that they are states of mind.

Dakini

@Dakini, I believe I relayed the same story from Lama Shenpen. It's HHDL who teaches that they are states of mind.

Oh, this is interesting. That's not what he, nor his teacher say on Berzin Archives. Well, I guess the main thing is that we have some sutric references for that from Jason. I'm told there are passages where the Buddha describes specific hells, but I have no reference. But at least we know the basis for the states-of-mind teachings. Berzin claims the latter theory is "Buddhism light", and that this isn't what the original teachings say. But we can check out Jason's references and decide for ourselves, that's the important thing.

aura

If anybody has not witnessed the reality of hell realms, irregardless of their belief system, Buddhist or not,
they need only walk through any pediatric intensive care unit
to be convinced otherwise.

person

@Dakini, I believe I relayed the same story from Lama Shenpen. It's HHDL who teaches that they are states of mind.

Oh, this is interesting. That's not what he, nor his teacher say on Berzin Archives. Well, I guess the main thing is that we have some sutric references for that from Jason. I'm told there are passages where the Buddha describes specific hells, but I have no reference. But at least we know the basis for the states-of-mind teachings. Berzin claims the latter theory is "Buddhism light", and that this isn't what the original teachings say. But we can check out Jason's references and decide for ourselves, that's the important thing.

I can't speak with authority on this but I believe what HHDL is saying is that any other realms that may exist originate from our minds. I don't think he's denied that they exist just that it starts from our mind. Something like this story.

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai", the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" sneered Hakuin, "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? You look like a beggar".
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword.
Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably to dull to cut off my head."
Nobushige drew his sword.
Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, put away his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise", said Hakuin.

Jeffrey

@Dakini, you could get some answers because Tibetan Buddhism teaches three vehicles: hinayana, mahayana, and vajrayana.

In the sutra teachings (mahayana sutras) we already have done away with the idea of a physical reality.

The nana nana boo boo yana isn't actually a vehicle it's just some cheekiness of individual practioners.

Jeffrey

*different answers

Dakini

Well, in the abhidharmakosha, Vasubandhu, on of the early interpreters of the Pali Canon, gives a Buddhist cosmology. I assume he didn't make it up from thin air, there must be a basis for it in the Canon. We've had threads here on Buddhist Cosmology before, it involves dozens of realms. Somewhere the Buddha must have outlined that.

I take your point, though, Jeffrey--the Mahayana has moved beyond "conventional reality". But when the DL and others teach about these realms, they don't add a disclaimer, saying, "but you realize, reality itself isn't really real". So...go figure.

Jason

Well, in the abhidharmakosha, Vasubandhu, on of the early interpreters of the Pali Canon, gives a Buddhist cosmology.

Actually, the Abhidharmakosa is a compendium of Sarvastivadin tents mainly found in their Abhidharma texts, which are completely distinct from Theravadin Abhidhamma texts. The Sarvastivadins also had their own collection of sutras written in Sanskrit, although these are admittedly very similar to those found in the Pali Canon. So while there is some overlap, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Vasubandhu was one of the early interpreters of the Pali Canon.

Jeffrey

Technically the Dalai Lama saying they are psychological states isn't wrong. What is wrong is our ordinary way of viewing the mind. So HHDL was not wrong, but rather he just didn't have enough time to nourish every being who heard him speak.

Do not worry HHDL will return tirelessly to help beings. He is just very busy now like santa He is believed to be an emanation of avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of compassion.

caz

There is really little to debate about this subject. Buddha was very clear on the subject of rebirth its frame work is an integral part of Dependent Origination one will either believe Buddha's insights where true or they will not, the latter need to do some more meditation.

Dakini

"Debate" is a misnomer, really. This is more an attempt to share traditions and also to figure out what the basis in the Buddha's teachings is for the hell realms teachings. More like hell realms analysis.

re: Vasubandhu, I was just saying that some of the teachings seem to stem more from later commentators than from the Buddha. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. I got that from the Berzin Archives.

person

re: Vasubandhu, I was just saying that some of the teachings seem to stem more from later commentators than from the Buddha. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. I got that from the Berzin Archives.

In the Tibetan tradition (I don't know about others) a lot of emphasis is placed on the lineage of the teachings. There is the ability of later people to interpret and build upon what came before. Its important that 'transmission' of the correct understanding was passed down though. Also there is a rigorous tradition of debate so there is a peer review process of sorts in what teachings are accepted and what are rejected. FWIW

Jeffrey

@Dakini, the hell realms are described in the context of the four motivations for dharma practice within the text, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. That text is from the 11th century. Do you mean you want to find the orignal word of the buddha @Dakini? The Tibetan tradition takes other texts as useful other than buddhas original words (if such exist). The Jewel Ornament of Liberation is the weaving of two branches of teachings in Tibetan buddhism by Gampopa. The two traditions are Kadampa and the Mahamudra (a presentation of tantra). The Kadampa tradition stems from Atisha.

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.
Atisha

Dakini

Yes, so ... I missed your point. The lineages never mention the commentators like Vasubandhu, Asvagosha, etc.? That's true. And yet, those people's input is in a lot of the teachings. I didn't know that until I started trying to find out where some of the teachings come from. Like the prohibitions on oral sex, gay sex, etc. Cosmology, the 32 realms, and other topics that have come up here.

@Jeffrey, right, Gampopa is another one. And I'm up for any source info anyone can offer. All the better to understand how these teachings evolved.

The Tibetan tradition takes other texts as useful other than buddhas original words (if such exist).

Ah! This is helpful to know.

The Jewel Ornament of Liberation is the weaving of two branches of teachings in Tibetan buddhism by Gampopa. The two traditions are Kadampa and the Mahamudra (a presentation of tantra). The Kadampa tradition stems from Atisha.

Thanks. Thanks for the whole post.

Sile

I think there is usually a disclaimer. Meaning, that the underlying teaching of most teachings is that everything we experience is created by our mind.

I think our question as westerners (or at least, my question) is: since, even though everything is ultimately created by the mind's misapprehensions, I nonetheless still seem to exist in some relative way-I can bump my head into a wall, and it hurts--does that mean there is a sort of realish hell I could actually end up in?

I think we understand "this life," and we understand that in Buddhism there is a concept of an "ultimate reality" which is different from the relative condition of "this life," but we don't know how hells (and other realms) fit in.

The funny thing is, if we look at the "animal realm," we aren't confused at all. We accept that 1) we live on this earth and 2) animals live on this earth so, we don't obsess about ending up in the "animal realm" as if it were some separate planet. We just think of it as "coming back as a dog."

But with the hells--our minds run to some other planet, a different street address, something other than this world.

I haven't seen anything in the teachings so far that leads me to believe the "hell" realm is at a different planetary address than the human or animal realms. From what I understand, it's here on earth--just a different mode of experiencing earth (in the same way that "human" and "animal" are different ways of experiencing this same earth).

Some interesting quotes:

"There is no miserable place waiting for you, no hell realm, sitting and waiting like Alaska -- waiting to turn you into ice cream. But whatever you call it -- hell or the suffering realms -- it is something that you enter by creating a world of neurotic fantasy and believing it to be real. It sounds simple, but that's exactly what happens." ~Lama Yeshe

"Looking into death needn't be frightening or morbid. Why not reflect on death when you are really inspired, relaxed, and comfortable, lying in bed, or on vacation, or listening to music that particularly delights you? Why not reflect on it when you are happy, in good health, confident, and full of well-being? Don't you notice that there are particular moments when you are naturally inspired to introspection? Work with them gently, for these are the moments when you can go through a powerful experience, and your whole worldview can change quickly. These are the moments when former beliefs crumble on their own, and you can find yourself being transformed." ~Sogyal Rinpoche

Sile

From Lama Zopa Rinpoche:

"I want to thank all of you on behalf of all the sentient beings. I want to thank you on behalf of the numberless hell beings, the numberless hungry ghosts, and the numberless animals. They can't thank you because they can't speak. By having taken a human body this time, I can use it to say thank you on behalf of all of them."

What happens if we talk about hell in terms of personal "form" rather than street address? If I come back as an ant, even to my own back yard, that once-familiar place may now be all new to me...little clumps of grass have become mountains, tiny bits of old food are now huge, tasty meals, there's an entire new world of subterranean dirt "cities" etc.

I think that if we took a few hours to write about life in the "Ant Realm" it could end up sounding like a different place or world, much like the vividly-described hall realms. But does that mean it is any more-physical or less-mental than the "ant realm?" Isn't it all just point of view, in the end?

Sile

Jeffrey

driedleaf

If you cannot believe in the hell realm or results of unwholesome actions, then you will not be afraid to perform unskilful actions.

zenff

If you cannot believe in the hell realm or results of unwholesome actions, then you will not be afraid to perform unskilful actions.

I don’t want to sound offensive but I think this is such nonsense!
We all have mirror neurons. They make us feel what other people (or animals) feel.
We don’t want to hurt others because we actually experience their pain.

The universe can do without religious fabrications of punishment and reward.

driedleaf

Then why break that mirror?

zenff

There is no reason to do harm. If we could just see that. We wouldn't need the fabrications of heaven and hell,

zenff

When I make someone happy, it makes me happy. There’s the reward.
When I make someone miserable, it makes me miserable. There’s the punishment.
Don’t create heaven or hell; just open your heart.

driedleaf

By cultivating within ourselves the qualities of moral shame and fear of wrongdoing we not only accelerate our own progress along the path to deliverance, but also contribute our share toward the protection of the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_23.html

The Buddha said victory over ten thousand enemies is not as great as a victory over oneself, which means the victory of wholesome over unwholesome Dhammas

http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hiri-ottappa-ajahn-jayasaro.html

"Monks, as at eventide the shadows of the great mountain peaks rest, lie and settle on the earth, so, monks, do these evil deeds... lie and settle on him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva-p/wheel237.html

Whether hell is real or fantasy, should not be the question we should ask. We should question our actions and the results of our actions.

Jeffrey

zenff, heaven and hell are fabrications. Nonetheless because we are not buddhas we fabricate them..

a buddhist dreams they are a buddhist
a boddhisattva dreams they are a bodhisattva
a buddha is awake

zenff

That's it.

Dakini

If you cannot believe in the hell realm or results of unwholesome actions, then you will not be afraid to perform unskilful actions.

I think driedleaf's point is that the teachings on hell and rebirth are for the purpose of providing a check on morality. But I also agree with zenff, that most of us have an innate sense of right and wrong, of compassion for others, and so forth, we don't really need a religion to tell us what's right and wrong. Except that Buddhism includes all sentient beings in the compassion teachings, which Western religions don't, and in our culture, we're not likely to arrive at that idea ourselves.

Whether hell is real or fantasy, should not be the question we should ask. We should question our actions and the results of our actions.

But here, 'leaf sounds like he's on the same page with zenff, more or less.

Some interesting quotes:

"There is no miserable place waiting for you, no hell realm, sitting and waiting like Alaska -- waiting to turn you into ice cream. But whatever you call it -- hell or the suffering realms -- it is something that you enter by creating a world of neurotic fantasy and believing it to be real. It sounds simple, but that's exactly what happens." ~Lama Yeshe

From Lama Zopa Rinpoche:

"I want to thank all of you on behalf of all the sentient beings. I want to thank you on behalf of the numberless hell beings, the numberless hungry ghosts, and the numberless animals. They can't thank you because they can't speak. By having taken a human body this time, I can use it to say thank you on behalf of all of them."

Thanks for the quotes. These two would seem to contradict themselves, which isn't a bad thing, it just points out that there's room for both interpretations of hell. Lama Zopa says, "by having taken a human body this time", implying: as opposed to an animal or hungry ghost body. He thanks us on their behalf, indicating he believes they exist. And the teachings say that we know the animal realm exists, so from there we can extrapolate that the other realms exist. The Dalai Lama's teacher, Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche says this in the teachings on hell, Berzin Archives.

Also, there is an elaborate cosmology that describes the hells, dividing them into hot, cold, and many other kinds, described in some detail. So I think everyone's right, everybody wins. We may never know for sure what the Buddha really taught with regard to this, because there's always the question of later outside influence on monks and scribes. (I sure wish I knew where that cosmology came from, though. :scratch: Is there a sutra on that?)

seeker242

If you cannot believe in the hell realm or results of unwholesome actions, then you will not be afraid to perform unskilful actions.

I don’t want to sound offensive but I think this is such nonsense!
We all have mirror neurons. They make us feel what other people (or animals) feel.
We don’t want to hurt others because we actually experience their pain.

The universe can do without religious fabrications of punishment and reward.

The universe can do without it but some people can't.

Jason

Also, there is an elaborate cosmology that describes the hells, dividing them into hot, cold, and many other kinds, described in some detail. So I think everyone's right, everybody wins. We may never know for sure what the Buddha really taught with regard to this, because there's always the question of later outside influence on monks and scribes. (I sure wish I knew where that cosmology came from, though. :scratch: Is there a sutra on that?)

You might want to check out MN 130. Pretty entertaining stuff. :rarr: