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Fanatical Buddhism?

edited January 2012 in Buddhism Basics
I read through all the threads here, even if I don't comment on them. I like the educational experience it provides me. I'm new to Buddhism and enjoying learning. If something is brought up in a discussion I'm not familure with I'll look it up.

But as is the case with anything, when you are looking for one question you often receive numerous answers. Which one is right? Are they all correct? Are they all wrong? Perhaps there is a certain degree of truth to each, but not in it's entirety a truth?

That made me think of the so called "Fanatics" of religion. On one side you have a group who say "That's not what the Bible/Quran etc. says! The Bible/Quran etc. says this!" When you look closer and really study it you realise BOTH sides have perhaps a valid argument, or you may realize you don't agree with either side as you find the Bible/Quran etc to say something entirely different.

I guess what I'm gettin at is this, do you think it's possiable to over educate ourselves in Buddhism to the point that one becomes "Fanatical"? And, could this over education actually PRECLUED one from obtaining enlightenment? (Ignorance is Bliss? See the world through the eyes of a child? The key to happiness is simplicity?) After all, the Budda himself never had any 'training' in The Path. He essentially went in 'ignorant' and through 'self teaching' and 'self disipline' achieved enlightenment. Even after Enlightenment the Budda seemed (from what I gather) illusive about his answers. He never said "No! This is how you do it!" He seemed to give basic guide lines and a smile.

So, is it better to have a 'basic knowledge' and find our way on The Path on our own? Or is it "Knowledge is Power".

Which then makes me ask, isn't Power a form of attachment?

Your thoughts:

Comments

  • I would never say that studying *can* not be helpful. So if you say that as an idea I would invite you to study yourself and see what happens. I do think it can be quite useless to only study and never meditate or find out for yourself if you can 'find' the dharma in terms of your own life. I also believe that there is a difference between direct realization and reading about it.

    For example if I read a book about co-dependent relationships that is not going to be the same thing as experiencing it and seeing for yourself what works to combat or deal with such a relationship.

    I think it is 'Knowledge is Power'.. but true knowing comes from experience.

    Here's some more knowledge ;) The Jewel Ornament of Liberation text organizing dharma into three aspects:

    meditating on impermanence to overcome attachment to life
    meditating on suffeirng to overcome attachment to pleasure
    meditating on love to overcome attachment to peace
    refuge and study and/or guru to overcome ignorance regarding how to do 1-3


  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    I agree with that. This is the premise of the book, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind." by Shunryu Suzuki.
    A few excerpts:

    "If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few."

    "In the beginner's mind there is no thought, 'I have attained something.' All self-centered thoughts limit our vast mind. When we have no thought of achievement, no thought of self, we are true beginners. Then we can really learn something."

    Ironically, I wouldn't really classify this book as a "beginner's book" haha. I made that mistake when I bought it and a bit of it was over my head at the time.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Its not the accumulation of knowledge thats the problem, its attaching your sense of self to it.

    Often when enough knowledge is gained we begin to understand just how much we don't know.

    Monks and teachers spend most of their lives studying, they don't seem to have a problem with fanatacism.

    I think meditation or direct experience is more important in this case than intellectual knowledge.


  • Monks and teachers spend most of their lives studying,
    May I ask a dumb question, (Because I truly don't know the answer) Do Monks and teachers actually spend most of their time studying (books, texts, etc.), or meditating (The mind, body, world, sense of self)?
  • Not everybody here will have the same opinion. I believe it depends on the sect you're in. Tibetan Buddhism seems to focus more on philosophy, while Zen Buddhism seems to focus on meditation, while Theravada Buddhism seems to focus on scriptures.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited January 2012


    Monks and teachers spend most of their lives studying,
    May I ask a dumb question, (Because I truly don't know the answer) Do Monks and teachers actually spend most of their time studying (books, texts, etc.), or meditating (The mind, body, world, sense of self)?
    It does vary by tradition, in the tibetan monastic system though monks don't actually spend much time in meditation at all. Its mostly study and ritual, also debate once they know enough. Its not until later, if one wants, do they go on extended (multi year) intense retreat.

    To get a geshe degree, which is like multiple PhD's, a monk studies for 15 - 20 years.
  • Interesting...thank you. :)
  • There are fanatics in Buddhism, but that would be more of an oxymoron in my opinion. Simply because a fanatic of Buddhism would be out in the wilderness, living on alms, and practicing meditation whenever possible. Attachments come in all sorts, there is such a thing as an attachment to rites and rituals.
  • @driedleaf You don't think a "westboro Chruch" "Bible banging" type of Buddhism is possible? I meant fanatical more in the sense that they are In Your Face-This is how It Is type of mentality. I would agree to the statement that 'fanatical would be an oxymoron' in the idea of meditation. Because really isn't that the point?
  • @LittleMighty yes I definitely think that is possible. I just googled "Buddhist fanatics" and it has around 1 million hits... :eek2:
  • Get out of here....I'll have to look at this...
  • I think that might have a grain of truth Tibetan - philosophy, zen - meditation, theravada - scriptures...

    However I think that's a generalization.. Individuals may practice all three.. Indeed it's a traditional teaching that hearing, contemplation (or philosphy), and meditation are the three methods of study.
    person
  • I googled it. Most of them aren't really related to what I'm asking. :-/
  • There is probably something out there. Not everything will make the headlines. I would think that fanaticism would not fit with Buddhism because you are not practicing the middle way. Of course there are those individuals that believe in the "greater good" as they say, and are extreme in their views. Violence in the name of dhamma is not something that would be ever be part of the practice.
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    @LittleMighty; "So, is it better to have a 'basic knowledge' and find our way on The Path on our own"?
    IMO yes. It will become that anyway. Even if you accumulate a vast knowledge of Buddhism and buddhist practice it's still gonna be your practice. Your Buddhism can never be someone else's.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I think a fanatical Buddhist would lead an extremely ethical life, and they would spend a lot of time meditating and practising compassion.

    It's not really religious when I put it like that!
  • Maybe 'Fanatical' was the wrong word for me to use...
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I think fanaticism arises from clinging to the words and not the meaning. The meaning is flexible and adaptable the words are not.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    ....to be a Buddhist is an attachment at the first place, as Gotama Buddha was not a Buddhist.
    your point is irrelevant.

    we are Buddhists because we follow the Buddha.

    Some attachments are to be commended. however, the secret is to let go when appropriate.
    Hanging on to an attachment inappropriately, is what does the damage.
    hence the 'raft' allegory.



  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I think there's an important distinction to be made between being devout and being a fundamentalist.

    Fundamentalism:
    1. Christianity (esp among certain Protestant sects) the belief that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true
    2. Islam a movement favouring strict observance of the teachings of the Koran and Islamic law
    3. strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs

    devout:
    1. deeply religious; reverent
    2. sincere; earnest; heartfelt

    Was Mother Theresa devout or fundamentalist? Is the Dalai Lama devout or a fundamentalist? What about Jerry Falwell?

    It seems to me that fundamentalists are also generally pretty devout people. But does that make devout people fundamentalist?

    I think its helpful to try to seperate fundamentalism from Christianity. The third definition is a strict adherence to any set of beliefs. So can we imagine a fundamentalsit athiest? A fundamentalist capitalist? Any other type of fundamentalist? I think if we can view fundamentalism in a concrete way apart from its most familiar presentations (aka Christianity, Islam) it can help see what it actually is.

    Also, I wonder how right view plays in this context. Does seeking right view automatically mean one becomes a fundamentalist? Really, thats not a rhetorical question, I wonder what people think.

  • What is a fundamentalist?
    I agree it is all relative.
    Therefore my definition of a fundamentalist is someone who – when he looks around – sees no fundamentalists in his line of faith. All he sees is true believers (including himself) and renegades.
    Anyone who looks around and sees fundamentalists (in his line of faith), well they’re not it.
    person
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Sorry, the OP was fanatical not fundamentalism.

    Fanatical:
    motivated or characterized by an extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

    So I guess a monastic life could be considered extreme. I don't think its uncritical though.

    An extreme buddhist lifestyle should be only be brought about through critical analysis. So I guess if one adopts a renunciate life through strict, uncritical adherence to the teachings instead of a careful analysis that could be considered fanaticism.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran


    Which then makes me ask, isn't Power a form of attachment?

    Not if that power leads to and causes the relinquishment of attachments.



  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    After all, the Budda himself never had any 'training' in The Path. -- LittleMighty

    Historically speaking, this is incorrect. Gautama visited and studied with a number of teachers before he came to his own conclusions.

    And this format is the same for all of us. Each of us leaves whatever palace is currently inhabited -- the one that seems to nourish doubt and uncertainty -- and sets off in search of ... whatever we choose to call it ... perhaps peace of mind or enlightenment or ... pick your poison.

    But the palace of the past -- the one that inspired so-called suffering -- is itself our most excellent teacher and teaching. When asked about his many 'failures,' Thomas Edison said approximately. "I did not fail 2,000 times to create a light bulb. I discovered 2,000 ways that didn't work."

    So ... reading ourselves into a blue funk is possible. But when that doesn't work to produce peace of mind or whatever, well, we have actually discovered something that doesn't work. It's a very good teacher and teaching. If it doesn't work, what does? If fanaticism doesn't work and sitting around like a couch potato doesn't work, what does? It is with these questions in mind that the quick-witted and savvy will speak up for the "middle way." But that raises more questions than it answers: What the hell is the middle way? Intellectually, it's easy to define. As a practical matter, each needs to discover it for himself. And that discovery and actualization owes a great debt to the
    fanaticism and laziness of the past.

    In Buddhist practice, nothing is ever wasted ... even the most grotesque mistakes. Everything is teaching us all the time. The only question is whether we are willing to open our eyes, take a look and assume the responsibility.

    Just a little noodling.
  • :thumbsup: good read
  • You attach to Buddhism until you can let go of Buddhism. For that to occur you need to have realizations.

    If you do not have such realizations then one must actively cling to the triple jewels and various practices (8 fold path) so that one can create the conditions for such realizations.

    If you're going to attach to something then attach to nirvana. Attach to the desire for liberation. If the desire is sincere then the fulfillment of such desire will self destruct upon attaining liberation.

    We must all use the dharma until the dharma is obvious in our reality. Until then, cling hard to the dharma.

    The Buddha was a special breed. We unlike the buddha hear the dharma, yet we are still stuck in our ignorant ways.

    I think one really has to be fanatical and insane to follow the Buddhist path. But ironically it is the path that leads to total sanity and acceptance.

    If one isn't going to dive completely, then throw away buddhism and religion. You better not start because it will change you. And if it doesn't then you're just making this into another hobby.

    Buddhism is a sword that cuts all ignorance away, not a play toy. Be fanatic or don't bother.
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