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Can prayers or chanting give you protection in any way?
people are born into different conditions n circumstances, it is indeed arrogant to think we can help all of them. even in our world, we cant help some people who are drug addicts or mentally ill.
Lets go back to the basics, what are chants and sutras? They are speeches / lessons taught by the Buddha (some of them, anyway). So initially, monks were repeating them to pass on the teachings to others.
In the present, we often chant them without knowing their meaning, bcos its in a foreign language. If anyone were to read the translations, they carry meaning!
Also, when Monks chant (everyday for some) the audience comprises beings from other realms who come to learn. ( goto ForrestDhamma books for reference, know you guys always insist on this). So it has a function and reason.
Everyone of us has an aura, only we dont see it, awakened people have a very bright aura, the sick and dying has the opposite. Well the other realms for sure see it clearly and they gravitate towards these people, to ask for help (bright auras). Lost souls need all the help and like those of you who study the Sutras, they are just trying to do the same, to hear the words being spoken, to learn the way. So why are you guys studying Buddhism?
So when we repeat the Sutras, they listen, do it long enough, an audience would have formed, aggressive ones are difficult, thats when the deities come in to 'moderate'. Its preferable to start with the Buddha invocation, "Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammasam Buddha", so it gets official status....
For those who always need proofs and who dont believe in the other realms, well too bad, some things can never be proven to others, only to those who can see or feel them.
For non believers, chant the 'Great Compassion Mantra', at night, over a period of time and see if you feel anything. (go look for it in the internet).
Are "lost souls" not helped on the other side by others in their own realm? Why would they just be 'abandoned' there - lost- and looking for/needing someone here, in this realm, for help?? Is it our place to be 'schooling' those in other realms as spirits, ghosts or what have you? Isn't that pretty, well, arrogant, to assume we have that 'power' and/or control over other realms and the souls in them?
I'm not bringing this up just to be contrary- I really wonder sometimes why people think we have ANY control over spirits, other realms, etc, or are needed by those in other realms to "help" them find their way, etc. It just makes absolutely no sense to me -at all- even when I was involved in all sorts of groups and practices where people believed they had that power/gift whatever they wish to call it.
If we, as Buddhists, are supposed to believe that everything -- every thing -- is seen through our veil of ego and delusion, why would we ever believe we have any sort of understanding about what goes on beyond our realm - without that too being perceived through our egos and delusions?
As for your question as to why [we] study Buddhism... I know this is not a common or popular viewpoint, but- I don't "study" Buddhism. Instead, I try to apply its basic core foundations to my life, on a daily basis. I am not deluding myself into thinking that thousands of hours of meditation, reading thousands of pages of texts, or pointedly striving for Enlightenment is the path TO Enlightenment. To me that is exactly the kind of attachment and craving that distracts from living Buddhism.
But that's just me. (and maybe a few others here in this forum (?) but millions of other Buddhists around the world might lean the same way I do...) I have no problem with others working things out for themselves in any manner they like. But all the spirit realms, chanting, channeling, invoking spirits, and religious/unknown/unknowable aspects of Buddhism is just not in my playbook. At least not in this Lifetime.
@MaryAnne, that's a different look for me at how it could be. But my question is if the spirit has no senses then what is it's 'life' like? When my dog passed away at the vets I stayed with him and told him they would take care of him. And I really believed I could help, though of course I could not claim to be privy to mystical knowledge, but that's just how it made sense to me at the time.
So if a spirit cannot have any sense pictures then what is the experience of a spirit?
There are no answers and many answers. All right and all wrong. It is unknowable from this perspective within this life experience.
If one doesn’t engage in those types of practices in order to protect themselves from harboring arrogance or pride within their own hearts then that is certainly wise too. However, there are practices in many traditions that specifically address uprooting the pride within ourselves and promote humility.
The motivation of great compassion is the desire to help others sunk in the sea of suffering and is not restricted or ultimately rooted in the serpent of pride, and it doesn’t matter how many or how long it takes.
Are "lost souls" not helped on the other side by others in their own realm? Why would they just be 'abandoned' there - lost- and looking for/needing someone here, in this realm, for help?? Is it our place to be 'schooling' those in other realms as spirits, ghosts or what have you? Isn't that pretty, well, arrogant, to assume we have that 'power' and/or control over other realms and the souls in them?
I'm not bringing this up just to be contrary- I really wonder sometimes why people think we have ANY control over spirits, other realms, etc, or are needed by those in other realms to "help" them find their way, etc. It just makes absolutely no sense to me -at all- even when I was involved in all sorts of groups and practices where people believed they had that power/gift whatever they wish to call it.
If we, as Buddhists, are supposed to believe that everything -- every thing -- is seen through our veil of ego and delusion, why would we ever believe we have any sort of understanding about what goes on beyond our realm - without that too being perceived through our egos and delusions?
As for your question as to why [we] study Buddhism... I know this is not a common or popular viewpoint, but- I don't "study" Buddhism. Instead, I try to apply its basic core foundations to my life, on a daily basis. I am not deluding myself into thinking that thousands of hours of meditation, reading thousands of pages of texts, or pointedly striving for Enlightenment is the path TO Enlightenment. To me that is exactly the kind of attachment and craving that distracts from living Buddhism.
But that's just me. (and maybe a few others here in this forum (?) but millions of other Buddhists around the world might lean the same way I do...) I have no problem with others working things out for themselves in any manner they like. But all the spirit realms, chanting, channeling, invoking spirits, and religious/unknown/unknowable aspects of Buddhism is just not in my playbook. At least not in this Lifetime.
Oh yes, Lost souls are always helped by other 'lost' souls, only to get lost again!!
One can always wonder why monks chant;
1) Its beats going to the Karaoke.
2) Cant play sports very well in their robes, so nothing doing.
3) Most of them cant knit while sitting under the leafy tree.
We dont have any control over spirits, only that they come to listen to the Dharma hoping to leave their wretched realm sooner, not unless there are books in hell, only have never seen a ghost with a book in hand. If you are starving, it wouldnt matter where you go to beg for food, any food will do, from any source.
Whats the function of Bodhisattvas, angels, other holy beings, why they come to help those in need, even Humans need help, so why not those in the lower realms?????
We can choose to help our brethren or anyone (thing ) that needs help.
As you mentioned, you dont study Buddhism, perhaps you should!
You said: Oh yes, Lost souls are always helped by other 'lost' souls, only to get lost again!!
One can always wonder why monks chant;
1) Its beats going to the Karaoke.
2) Cant play sports very well in their robes, so nothing doing.
3) Most of them cant knit while sitting under the leafy tree.
We dont have any control over spirits, only that they come to listen to the Dharma hoping to leave their wretched realm sooner, not unless there are books in hell, only have never seen a ghost with a book in hand. If you are starving, it wouldnt matter where you go to beg for food, any food will do, from any source.
Whats the function of Bodhisattvas, angels, other holy beings, why they come to help those in need, even Humans need help, so why not those in the lower realms?????
We can choose to help our brethren or anyone (thing ) that needs help.
As you mentioned, you dont study Buddhism, perhaps you should!
************************
I'm not sure how to take your post. Honestly, my first reaction to it was not 'good' - because of the tone, the dismissing of my pov, and the last (condescending and somewhat rude) sentence. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting? Please, explain if I am....
The original question was asking (us) if chanting and/or prayers give us "protection"... not if they work to lift our spirits, make us feel better, honor our ancestors, etc... but if they protect us.
Someone asked early on, "protect us from what?" A clarification that was appreciated by most of us, no? Anyway, it became about protection from "spirits" "lost souls" and other sorts of other-realm beings; nothing to do with why monks chant or the use of chanting in any traditional form of learning/repeating Buddha's lessons, words, etc.
"Protection" from spirits -- which I guess we need to assume do "had things" we need to be protected from? -- was the original discussion.
The OP referred simply to protection, and asked specifically for a Theravada view.
I cited a sutta which describes the Buddha teaching a paritta in response to a spirit situation, but my intent wasn't to suggest that's the only thing paritta and other recitations were addressing. One sutta mentions the Buddha's instructions for a woman having difficult labor, for example.
Maybe someone has added up the paritta subject matter to see what range of dangers these were most often taught for, but I know there are an impressive number which deal with snakes.
Here's one against fear itself (the Abhaya Paritta):
I can't help but love the Baby Quail's Protection (Vaṭṭaka Paritta). The disciples rushed to save the Buddha from a raging forest fire, and found him in the midst of it with no fire burning near him. He explained it was not due to any power of his, but from the power of an "Act of Truth" in his previous life as a quail.
This baby quail, unable to fly and abandoned to an approaching forest fire, decided to try calling to mind the Buddhas of the past, and made a firm asseveration that by the power of truth the fire would recede:
There is in this world the quality of virtue, Truth, purity, tenderness. In accordance with this truth I will make An unsurpassed vow of truth.
Calling to mind the victors of the past, In dependence on the strength of truth, I made an unsurpassed vow of truth:
Here are wings with no feathers, Here are feet that can't walk. My mother & father have left me. Fire, go back!
When I made my vow with truth, The great crested flames Avoided the sixteen acres around me As if they had come to a body of water. My truth has no equal: Such is my perfection of truth.
This paritta sutta of six Pali stanzas is found in the Jataka, Cariyapitaka and Khuddaka Nikaya texts and is recited today today as protection from fires.
I find it so interesting that truth itself (or at least the truth of the Buddhas--no small distinction, I imagine!) is considered to be subject to physical laws of cause and effect. A kind of static energy, maybe, released by asseveration?
Er...my physics terminology may be wrong--would that be potential energy, rather than static?
I couldn't see a link between the karmic power of truth and conventional physics. Whatever happens in a system in conventional physics would be truth as is seen apparent. So there are observations and those are analyzed to find truth. But it's a different truth than a person that is not lying. It is like 'it's true the sun is up'. Where 'sun is up' is the physics of the situation.
Maybe what appears to be the cause and effect, "prayer stops fire," is just the coarse, surface manifestation of the underlying cause and effect, "power of truth protects asseverator."
By physics, I just meant that the laws of cause and effect (any cause and effect, physical, "spiritual" or otherwise) apply; although I do feel that in the future physics will inevitably be able to measure kinetic and potential energies for which it currently has no instrument (or name, lol).
Prayers and chanting has been used for many generations as a way to clear and steady the mind. So, in a way they do provide a degree of protection.
I've also noticed that places in which these activities take place - like shrine rooms - have a certain atmosphere, so maybe that is also a form of protection?
Can Lord Buddha and/or the devas offer you protection if you chant or pray for them? I'm hesitant to believe in it, as it feels more like a theistic religion to me that way. But then I began chanting and found out about the paritta chants which are specifically about asking for protection. Do they work? Can you please give an answer according to Theravada Buddhism? Thank you!
Yes they can. And don't listen to " protestant Buddhists " who tell you otherwise.
Thank you for the gracipous reply, it helps to keep the discussion on topic and not get personal.
Are "lost souls" not helped on the other side by others in their own realm? Why would they just be 'abandoned' there - lost- and looking for/needing someone here, in this realm, for help?? Is it our place to be 'schooling' those in other realms as spirits, ghosts or what have you? Isn't that pretty, well, arrogant, to assume we have that 'power' and/or control over other realms and the souls in them?
Well its not arrogance at all, merely an observation, which is why I mentioned about the monks chanting, 'What in your mind do they chant for?'. Very much trying to get you in thinking mode. There are people who SEE whatever it is that comes to listen. If you bring two pieces of magnets to the deepest jungles of wherever, they will be astounded by what they dont comprehend. But it does no good to call anyone arrogant simply because of this!!!
In the Buddhist Dharma, one really has to study the scriptures, in volume they are about 20 times the Bibles' size, the Tripitaka as it is, and not inclusive of the Mahayana sutras. How then does anyone understand the logic and practices by just glancing through, not unless you believe in faith alone.
As the Buddha said, investigate all the teachings, not throw salt in it, listen , try to comprehend and work out the mechanics.
( Rebirth by Ajahn Brahm)
Listen to Ajahn Brahm, rebirth is central to Buddhist beliefs, well, try asking him to prove it to YOU.
Further to that, rebirth in the many realms, and then the woeful states ( who need help), it is all interconnected. We cant pick and choose certain sections only and discard the rest.
Going back, why monks chant, does it work as protection, yes, of course, plus it is a way of release, otherwise why do it, perhaps it would help you to ask them, WHY??
The Buddhist Dharma is very deep, Its not easy to understand. Chanting is but a replay of the Buddha's teachings for all those who care to listen, whether in Human or other realms. And all who cares and wants release, will behave and listen, thats why its considered protection, because they dont misbehave.
If you want to graduate, you dont create ruckus in your college, do it somewhere else, right
The Buddhadharma in all its diversity is too rich a diet for some. There is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with them. We have to practice as we can, and not as we can't. Lets just be careful not to assume that something that we as individuals cannot benefit from is therefore of no benefit to anyone... We just might find that further on down the road it makes sense. And that might happen in this lifetime.
Can prayers or chanting give you protection in any way?
Yes, very much so! They give you protection from the three most dangerous things in the entire universe: ignorance, greed and hate and the removal of ignorance, greed and hate, is the ultimate protection against everything. IMO
I think this issue of protective recitation is just another of many which reflect the spectrum of Buddhist approaches to reality.
Is the threat (fire, disease, afflictive emotion) solid and real? Is the antidote (prayer, medicine, practice) solid and real? Even in one's own mind the feeling may shift across the spectrum.
It's very clear that the Buddha, to the best of our ability to determine such a thing, taught protective prayers, recitations, mantras and so on. It's also very clear he stressed over and over the vital connection between this (or any action) and one's own mind. Even asseveration--strong affirmation--is the directing of one's own mind.
It seems to me to be the same familiar lesson of mind as the ultimate answer. That the Buddha taught the mind could protect against fire isn't any weirder than his teachings that the mind is responsible for enlightenment.
Can Lord Buddha and/or the devas offer you protection if you chant or pray for them? I'm hesitant to believe in it, as it feels more like a theistic religion to me that way. But then I began chanting and found out about the paritta chants which are specifically about asking for protection. Do they work? Can you please give an answer according to Theravada Buddhism? Thank you!
Yes they can. And don't listen to " protestant Buddhists " who tell you otherwise.
Wow. Once again 'fundamentalism' raises its (ugly) head.... that was quite a statement there, Citta. Are you professing there is only one legitimate POV and/or only one legitimate "tradition?"
No I am not...but that cuts in all directions. To assume that the Buddhas teachings can be explained by a "mind only " model, or as symbolic only, or as cultural accretions, is another kind of fundamentalism. Buddhadharma is experiential. Its not a question of finding a religion that fits our preconceptions...of whatever nature.
I don't believe that emphasis on mind means there's no physical experience. If we were already free from all neurophysical phenomena, I suppose there'd be no need for dharma.
Just pointing out that in explaining protective recitation, the Buddha emphasizes mind and not magic. I think you may have interpreted me to be saying that he emphasized mind and not matter (which I suppose he does, too).
To a rural tribal community, there is absolutely nothing about sticking a pointy piece of metal into your arm that should protect against polio. It's mere magic and pretty unpleasant magic at that. Once understood, magic becomes knowledge. I guess I just don't have any problem thinking that I have more to learn in life, and that it's possible for asseveration to stop fires.
Ultimately, enlightenment doesn't have a basis in physical matter, so I also don't have a problem seeing the "physical" become less and less important, or behaving less and less predictably, in the conventional life of an advanced practitioner.
By my coarse standards and experience, "the fire stopped." By the Buddha's standards, something else probably happened, lol. A bit of nasty karma was purified via strong asseveration. Positive neutralizes negative. It doesn't mean the fire's not there (at least for me).
Both my I-can-smell-burning-fire-experience and the Buddha's mere mental-negativity-experience exist at the same time. Both the tribal person's "painful stabbing prevented crippling" and my "inoculation induced immune response" exist at the same time.
Oh nooooo.....more superposition....agggghhh!!! Maybe that would have to be called ultraposition. Or just super-labeling.
Lets just be careful not to assume that something that we as individuals cannot benefit from is therefore of no benefit to anyone... We just might find that further on down the road it makes sense.
Yes, very true. Again I think an open-minded attitude is helpful, seeing possibilities rather than negating them.
Comments
it is indeed arrogant to think we can help all of them.
even in our world, we cant help some people who are drug addicts or mentally ill.
There are no answers and many answers. All right and all wrong. It is unknowable from this perspective within this life experience.
The motivation of great compassion is the desire to help others sunk in the sea of suffering and is not restricted or ultimately rooted in the serpent of pride, and it doesn’t matter how many or how long it takes.
Are "lost souls" not helped on the other side by others in their own realm?
Why would they just be 'abandoned' there - lost- and looking for/needing someone here, in this realm, for help??
Is it our place to be 'schooling' those in other realms as spirits, ghosts or what have you? Isn't that pretty, well, arrogant, to assume we have that 'power' and/or control over other realms and the souls in them?
I'm not bringing this up just to be contrary- I really wonder sometimes why people think we have ANY control over spirits, other realms, etc, or are needed by those in other realms to "help" them find their way, etc.
It just makes absolutely no sense to me -at all- even when I was involved in all sorts of groups and practices where people believed they had that power/gift whatever they wish to call it.
If we, as Buddhists, are supposed to believe that everything -- every thing -- is seen through our veil of ego and delusion, why would we ever believe we have any sort of understanding about what goes on beyond our realm - without that too being perceived through our egos and delusions?
As for your question as to why [we] study Buddhism... I know this is not a common or popular viewpoint, but- I don't "study" Buddhism.
Instead, I try to apply its basic core foundations to my life, on a daily basis. I am not deluding myself into thinking that thousands of hours of meditation, reading thousands of pages of texts, or pointedly striving for Enlightenment is the path TO Enlightenment. To me that is exactly the kind of attachment and craving that distracts from living Buddhism.
But that's just me. (and maybe a few others here in this forum (?) but millions of other Buddhists around the world might lean the same way I do...)
I have no problem with others working things out for themselves in any manner they like.
But all the spirit realms, chanting, channeling, invoking spirits, and religious/unknown/unknowable aspects of Buddhism is just not in my playbook. At least not in this Lifetime.
Oh yes, Lost souls are always helped by other 'lost' souls, only to get lost again!!
One can always wonder why monks chant;
1) Its beats going to the Karaoke.
2) Cant play sports very well in their robes, so nothing doing.
3) Most of them cant knit while sitting under the leafy tree.
We dont have any control over spirits, only that they come to listen to the Dharma hoping to leave their wretched realm sooner, not unless there are books in hell, only have never seen a ghost with a book in hand.
If you are starving, it wouldnt matter where you go to beg for food, any food will do, from any source.
Whats the function of Bodhisattvas, angels, other holy beings, why they come to help those in need, even Humans need help, so why not those in the lower realms?????
We can choose to help our brethren or anyone (thing ) that needs help.
As you mentioned, you dont study Buddhism, perhaps you should!
You said:
Oh yes, Lost souls are always helped by other 'lost' souls, only to get lost again!!
One can always wonder why monks chant;
1) Its beats going to the Karaoke.
2) Cant play sports very well in their robes, so nothing doing.
3) Most of them cant knit while sitting under the leafy tree.
We dont have any control over spirits, only that they come to listen to the Dharma hoping to leave their wretched realm sooner, not unless there are books in hell, only have never seen a ghost with a book in hand.
If you are starving, it wouldnt matter where you go to beg for food, any food will do, from any source.
Whats the function of Bodhisattvas, angels, other holy beings, why they come to help those in need, even Humans need help, so why not those in the lower realms?????
We can choose to help our brethren or anyone (thing ) that needs help.
As you mentioned, you dont study Buddhism, perhaps you should!
************************
I'm not sure how to take your post.
Honestly, my first reaction to it was not 'good' - because of the tone, the dismissing of my pov, and the last (condescending and somewhat rude) sentence.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting? Please, explain if I am....
Someone asked early on, "protect us from what?" A clarification that was appreciated by most of us, no? Anyway, it became about protection from "spirits" "lost souls" and other sorts of other-realm beings; nothing to do with why monks chant or the use of chanting in any traditional form of learning/repeating Buddha's lessons, words, etc.
"Protection" from spirits -- which I guess we need to assume do "had things" we need to be protected from? -- was the original discussion.
I cited a sutta which describes the Buddha teaching a paritta in response to a spirit situation, but my intent wasn't to suggest that's the only thing paritta and other recitations were addressing. One sutta mentions the Buddha's instructions for a woman having difficult labor, for example.
Maybe someone has added up the paritta subject matter to see what range of dangers these were most often taught for, but I know there are an impressive number which deal with snakes.
Here's one against fear itself (the Abhaya Paritta):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#abhaya
This baby quail, unable to fly and abandoned to an approaching forest fire, decided to try calling to mind the Buddhas of the past, and made a firm asseveration that by the power of truth the fire would recede:
There is in this world the quality of virtue,
Truth, purity, tenderness.
In accordance with this truth I will make
An unsurpassed vow of truth.
Calling to mind the victors of the past,
In dependence on the strength of truth,
I made an unsurpassed vow of truth:
Here are wings with no feathers,
Here are feet that can't walk.
My mother & father have left me.
Fire, go back!
When I made my vow with truth,
The great crested flames
Avoided the sixteen acres around me
As if they had come to a body of water.
My truth has no equal:
Such is my perfection of truth.
This paritta sutta of six Pali stanzas is found in the Jataka, Cariyapitaka and Khuddaka Nikaya texts and is recited today today as protection from fires.
I find it so interesting that truth itself (or at least the truth of the Buddhas--no small distinction, I imagine!) is considered to be subject to physical laws of cause and effect. A kind of static energy, maybe, released by asseveration?
By physics, I just meant that the laws of cause and effect (any cause and effect, physical, "spiritual" or otherwise) apply; although I do feel that in the future physics will inevitably be able to measure kinetic and potential energies for which it currently has no instrument (or name, lol).
Thank you for the gracipous reply, it helps to keep the discussion on topic and not get personal.
Are "lost souls" not helped on the other side by others in their own realm?
Why would they just be 'abandoned' there - lost- and looking for/needing someone here, in this realm, for help??
Is it our place to be 'schooling' those in other realms as spirits, ghosts or what have you? Isn't that pretty, well, arrogant, to assume we have that 'power' and/or control over other realms and the souls in them?
Well its not arrogance at all, merely an observation, which is why I mentioned about the monks chanting, 'What in your mind do they chant for?'. Very much trying to get you in thinking mode. There are people who SEE whatever it is that comes to listen. If you bring two pieces of magnets to the deepest jungles of wherever, they will be astounded by what they dont comprehend. But it does no good to call anyone arrogant simply because of this!!!
In the Buddhist Dharma, one really has to study the scriptures, in volume they are about 20 times the Bibles' size, the Tripitaka as it is, and not inclusive of the Mahayana sutras.
How then does anyone understand the logic and practices by just glancing through, not unless you believe in faith alone.
As the Buddha said, investigate all the teachings, not throw salt in it, listen , try to comprehend and work out the mechanics.
Listen to Ajahn Brahm, rebirth is central to Buddhist beliefs, well, try asking him to prove it to YOU.
Further to that, rebirth in the many realms, and then the woeful states ( who need help), it is all interconnected. We cant pick and choose certain sections only and discard the rest.
Going back, why monks chant, does it work as protection, yes, of course, plus it is a way of release, otherwise why do it, perhaps it would help you to ask them, WHY??
The Buddhist Dharma is very deep, Its not easy to understand. Chanting is but a replay of the Buddha's teachings for all those who care to listen, whether in Human or other realms. And all who cares and wants release, will behave and listen, thats why its considered protection, because they dont misbehave.
If you want to graduate, you dont create ruckus in your college, do it somewhere else, right
There is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with them.
We have to practice as we can, and not as we can't.
Lets just be careful not to assume that something that we as individuals cannot benefit from is therefore of no benefit to anyone...
We just might find that further on down the road it makes sense.
And that might happen in this lifetime.
Is the threat (fire, disease, afflictive emotion) solid and real? Is the antidote (prayer, medicine, practice) solid and real? Even in one's own mind the feeling may shift across the spectrum.
It's very clear that the Buddha, to the best of our ability to determine such a thing, taught protective prayers, recitations, mantras and so on. It's also very clear he stressed over and over the vital connection between this (or any action) and one's own mind. Even asseveration--strong affirmation--is the directing of one's own mind.
It seems to me to be the same familiar lesson of mind as the ultimate answer. That the Buddha taught the mind could protect against fire isn't any weirder than his teachings that the mind is responsible for enlightenment.
Wow. Once again 'fundamentalism' raises its (ugly) head.... that was quite a statement there, Citta. Are you professing there is only one legitimate POV and/or only one legitimate "tradition?"
To assume that the Buddhas teachings can be explained by a "mind only " model, or as symbolic only, or as cultural accretions, is another kind of fundamentalism.
Buddhadharma is experiential. Its not a question of finding a religion that fits our preconceptions...of whatever nature.
Just pointing out that in explaining protective recitation, the Buddha emphasizes mind and not magic. I think you may have interpreted me to be saying that he emphasized mind and not matter (which I suppose he does, too).
To a rural tribal community, there is absolutely nothing about sticking a pointy piece of metal into your arm that should protect against polio. It's mere magic and pretty unpleasant magic at that. Once understood, magic becomes knowledge. I guess I just don't have any problem thinking that I have more to learn in life, and that it's possible for asseveration to stop fires.
Ultimately, enlightenment doesn't have a basis in physical matter, so I also don't have a problem seeing the "physical" become less and less important, or behaving less and less predictably, in the conventional life of an advanced practitioner.
By my coarse standards and experience, "the fire stopped." By the Buddha's standards, something else probably happened, lol. A bit of nasty karma was purified via strong asseveration. Positive neutralizes negative. It doesn't mean the fire's not there (at least for me).
Both my I-can-smell-burning-fire-experience and the Buddha's mere mental-negativity-experience exist at the same time. Both the tribal person's "painful stabbing prevented crippling" and my "inoculation induced immune response" exist at the same time.
Oh nooooo.....more superposition....agggghhh!!! Maybe that would have to be called ultraposition. Or just super-labeling.