The mentally ill

mfranzdorf

I had a thought today. (Dangerous, I know). What of the mentally ill. I don't mean those of us with a diagnosis of a minor affliction, I'm talking more about those individuals that really do not know right from wrong. What lies ahead for them ? They suffer but may not know why? Is there anything in Buddhist teachings that deals with this? Also, I know the concept of karma differs for some folks, but if a person really doesn't know right from wrong, does it exist for them at all?

vinlyn

Interesting question.

how

Those who don't comprehend the difference between right and wrong still reap the consequences of their actions. You can debate whether it is the karmic law, out of the five laws of existence, that applies here but not whether or not there is consequences.

Suffering is also the result of attachments, whether mentally competent or not.

MaryAnne

It is an interesting question.... I got no answers, though....

lobster

I'm talking more about those individuals that really do not know right from wrong.

You mean like dzogchen 'masters'?

Being kind may be the best option . . .

mfranzdorf

lobster said:

I'm talking more about those individuals that really do not know right from wrong.

You mean like dzogchen 'masters'?

Being kind may be the best option . . .

Kindness.....yes, that is the best option isnt it. Sometimes I overthink things.

shanyin

I think there are many examples the Buddha was clear many different people have different mental capacities and he taught different people differently.

Maybe your over thinking a bit.

Jeffrey

Mentally ill are often the most intelligent people. They know right from wrong. There is a distinction between thought disorders and personality disorders. The latter some of the people don't care about harming others.

But the thought disorders: anxiety, depression, psychotic, and bipolar etc do know right from wrong. There is less violence in schizophrenics than non with exception of violence to the self.

I personally, am schizoaffective and I definitely know right from wrong. I am also an advocate for the mentally ill and I encourage everyone to learn more about it. Mentally ill are just like everyone else only with something added.

chela

I think you may be talking more about people like serial killers than the average mental-health-challenged person. Everyone suffers consequences, no matter what their mental health is like. Some people don't even have much mental in their health, like those who have suffered some sort of brain injury that leaves them in mostly a vegetative state. Unfortunately, Buddhism, or anything else, is not going to help everyone. You have to be able to understand the teachings and be open to them to receive benefit from them. (At least, that is what appears to me.)

karasti

But if that was 100% true, @chela, then how would one progress through lifetimes to be able to "level up" so to speak? I think you can practice what we know as Buddhism without knowing what it is, and obviously a person gains karma, good or bad, without knowing for sure whether it exists, nevermind understanding how it works. If someone practices the eightfold path without knowing an eightfold path exists, do they not still benefit from it?

If an ant can eventually gain enough to have a human birth then I have to believe a person in a vegetative state can, too.

I have a cousin who is a paranoid, sometimes violent, schizophrenic. Sometimes he knows what is up, sometimes he does not. Even when he's not in the same place as the rest of us, he still has performed both good, and bad, deeds. He is still responsible for them, but he also still gains rewards from the good deeds as well, without even knowing what karma is, what Buddhism is, or how it works.

Jeffrey

@karasti, he sure can. I think my illness has brought me closer to Buddhism rather than farther. I started meditating because of the depressing feelings of failing out of grad school with my illness. And I am (was) a pretty smart guy, but I failed out due to 'word salad' during my studying. This is one of the advantages of believing in rebirth. You can practice hard even when it seems it might not matter.

lobster

A blade of grass may have the potential for Buddhahood. An animal too. But not in their current form.

We are born human, we may never come across or have the capacity for interest in spirituality. The form is still limited. Being a relatively undamaged person with body or mind affliction and able to find and follow the way is as rare as finding the way.

So we take responsibility or accept our form and enable our potential.
The very suffering in mental, physical, social, economic 'impediments' may be the very impetus that the 'unsuffering' sane never encounter or recognise . . .

Eh ma ho - How wonderful.

chela

@karasti, I don't disagree that someone may benefit in reaping good karma, whether they know about Buddhism or not. And yes, there are plenty of people who have morals that haven't learned them from the 8FP. But, I'm just saying, that someone has to be open to the ideas, whether they get them from Buddha or from somewhere else (like their parents, a rabbi, a neighbor, they are just really in tuned with nature, etc.) to benefit-- and I mean to benefit as in having a healing experience in their life. What I am saying is that there are people out there that are not accepting of changing their thinking or behavior patterns. The reason I know this is because I was raised by someone who has lived her whole life not being open to any ideas that might ease her suffering. I am not saying that karma doesn't exist for these people, I'm just saying that there are people who have shut themselves off (or have been shut off by mental illness). I'm not saying that all mentally ill people are like this, and for the record, I think that mental illness is on a continuum-- we are all mentally ill, it's just a matter of degrees.

jll

IMO, we are all mentally ill.
mental health is not something that can be
easily defined.
some people suffer from clinical depression,
yet some times they are happy, maybe only for a brief period.
yet 'normal' people get depressed too.
the acceptable definition is 2 weeks, if you are depressed for more than 2 weeks,
you shd see a doctor.

2 weeks is 14 days. so if i am depressed for 13 days , i am normal.
15 days is a problem? what i am saying is that 2 weeks is an arbitrary yardstick.

sometimes i wonder, am i normal?

mfranzdorf said:

I had a thought today. (Dangerous, I know). What of the mentally ill. I don't mean those of us with a diagnosis of a minor affliction, I'm talking more about those individuals that really do not know right from wrong. What lies ahead for them ? They suffer but may not know why? Is there anything in Buddhist teachings that deals with this? Also, I know the concept of karma differs for some folks, but if a person really doesn't know right from wrong, does it exist for them at all?

lobster

There is only one thing worse than mental illness - sanity.

sometimes i wonder, am i normal?

. . . 'Normals' don't think they need curing of their afflictions . . .
. . . We know better, don't we boys and gals and imaginary friends . . .

Tosh

I'm a member of a British Army forum (being an ex soldier myself) and there's quite a few topics ongoing there about alcoholism and general mental health problems; there's a fair bit of PTSD going on; it's called the 'new bad back' in the army, which shows how much understanding and sympathy gets shown from the troops.

Here's a prime example of a post:

Not sure if I should post this here or in the Alkie thread. I am unsure as to whether I'm suffering from Depression or just a raving piss head. I will segregate my thoughts thus:

Mental

I have serious anxiety at work to the point I cannot be there. I will get in the car and drain the tank just driving round camp!!
The phone rings I avoid it like the plague
I avoid confrontation at all costs. (Not being overly bigheaded, but I am a big ugly ____!)
I over think everything.
I cant sleep at night because I am thinking what I have to do tomorrow.
I want to kill the dude that just pushed in font of me at the till.
I sit and work out the best and quickest scenario for offing the bellend at work.
I cant walk out the door because I think the world is coming in.

I am puking at the thought of walking through the door and going to work.

I am a cock.

Drink

I can drink normal. Going without drink, no problem.
I can go out and drink the place dry. (I am a big lad, not in the fat sense!)
I can go for a few beers then chill.
I drink 4-6 beers a night.
I don't drink spirits because they send me proper daft. (Hard one that at a mess do!)

THE KICKER - If I get really pissed I can't stop. I mean, the day after a serious pissup I get up, go to the fridge get a beer and crack on; Ad Infinitum.

The last major time I did this I ended up in hospital after a 4 week bender. I mean a bender. Get up, beer + spirits, sleep. repeat for 4 weeks.

The wife was beside herself when she found out I was drinking like that, she knew I liked a beer but that took the biscuit.

I have the opinion that I cant mention this at work because the stigma that will follow would be unbearable and push me further to the beer counter!

Have seen a Doc but that was a waste of time.

I function and do my job very well, considering what I have said up there,
but there is a little bastard on my shoulder f-------g me over!!!!

Time will tell I suppose.

Thats my cards on the table........Let the assassination begin!

I think mental health problems are very common, even in people who we wouldn't think have them.

Jeffrey

Deep down we are all sane. If we can find that needle in a haystack.

BhikkhuJayasara

if you are talking about the "normal" mentally ill, ie schizophrenia/bi-polar and not serial killers etc, then I can discuss as I deal with mentally ill people daily.

people with bi-polar/schizophrenia and the like have a moral compass.. the problem is they see/hear things we do not and you can look at the same situation they do and they will see it entirely different, and therefore make decisions based on their own perception(like we all do). For instance in the case of a very mentally ill mother I have(I do child protective services). I know this mother is a very nice person who would never hurt her children, but when she is manic, un medicated, and at the height of her illness.. I fear for any adult who would be in a car with her.. let alone children. She would never "beat" the children, but just by those children being around her in that state there is a increased risk of harm due to her manic actions.

as for kamma related to mental illness, I'd say it is most likely a factor, like anything else. Kamma+genes+life experiences+environment

person

Animals also generally don't know right from wrong and they have to suffer the consequences of their actions, some thing clearly covered in the teachings. I imagine it would be close to the same for a human that can't tell right from wrong.

mfranzdorf

@Jeffrey I certainly meant to offense. I know you and others have a mental illness. Thats why I made sure to say that I meant those people who truly do not know right from wrong, not just diagnosed with a more minor affliction. Sorry if you took me wrong

karasti

Bipolar and Schizophrenia aren't the same thing. Not remotely.

Jeffrey

Schizo-affective has qualities of both bipolar and schizophrenia^

I don't have risky behaviour and pressure to talk like bipolar, but colors seem brighter sometimes and I have delusions for example a delusion that secret factions are trying to convert me to their religion or deity.

I'm on so much medicine now that I don't have delusions, but I still have repetitive insistent voices.