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attachement, aversion, "the middle way"...
SillyPutty
Veteran
I don't know if everyone would agree with me, but I think it's possible to have a real addiction to food, just like to drugs, alcohol, etc. Anyway, assuming you agree with me (or you can use another example here if you wish), how does "the middle way" and attachment and aversion apply here?
For instance, everyone says that you have to eat in moderation to be healthy. But what if you just cannot eat pizza because pizza is your trigger and once you have a taste of it you can't stop eating bad for 2 weeks? (Or, actually, let's put it into a broader spectrum and say: sugar/carbs/etc.-- things we should really eat in moderation to stay healthy.) How can you find moderation/the middle way on something that conjures up such destruction for you? And if that's the case, isn't it just as bad to have an aversion to it as it is to have an attachment to it? Wouldn't that still constitute "not getting the dharma point" in Buddhism? Isn't the ultimate goal just to see the pizza/pasta/rice/bread/potatoes/etc. there and not feel one way or another about it? If so, how on earth do you do that? Cuz I'd love to know. I'm kinda tired of being obsessed with food.
For instance, everyone says that you have to eat in moderation to be healthy. But what if you just cannot eat pizza because pizza is your trigger and once you have a taste of it you can't stop eating bad for 2 weeks? (Or, actually, let's put it into a broader spectrum and say: sugar/carbs/etc.-- things we should really eat in moderation to stay healthy.) How can you find moderation/the middle way on something that conjures up such destruction for you? And if that's the case, isn't it just as bad to have an aversion to it as it is to have an attachment to it? Wouldn't that still constitute "not getting the dharma point" in Buddhism? Isn't the ultimate goal just to see the pizza/pasta/rice/bread/potatoes/etc. there and not feel one way or another about it? If so, how on earth do you do that? Cuz I'd love to know. I'm kinda tired of being obsessed with food.
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But, since you are asking about the middle way, what I found I could do was to be more mindful about what I was eating throughout the day and try tradeoffs. Okay, if I am going to have potato chips as part of lunch, then tonight I will have to be relatively sodium free. I can have a couple of slices of pizza, but then the rest of the day I can be sodium free.
And, I've tried to think similarly in terms of fats and sugars...although less successfully. But, yesterday in the early afternoon, I stopped at Dairy Queen. But that meant no more deserts for the remainder of the day.
Incidentally, the salt issue has somewhat resolved itself, although I'm not quite sure why. I still have to be a little careful, but not to the extent I did for a while.
The middle way is to understand that the suffering inherent in such a situation has nothing to do with pizza or lack thereof. It's all about the deep psychological unease that underlies the "addiction". For pizza to become just pizza, I must gain some insight into that unease, reconnect with the emotions that are brewing below the surface. When the insight is gained, pizza is no longer a problem. That is why I practice Buddhism.
To give an example, someone rather close to me used to suffer from compulsive eating. At the same time, they were stuck in life, not sure what they were doing, spending too much time alone. Then they found their way, went to school, found more friends. Compulsive eating disappeared off the radar almost immediately. Eating became a non-issue as a more sustainable way to feel good had been found. What is that way for you? Reflect on that and the whole problem may appear in an entirely different life.Best of luck!
There are things I avoid for the reasons you describe. When I drink certain things or during certain events, I'll drink way more than I should. So I avoid those things and those situations, not out of aversion but out of self-care and protection. I avoid eating too much sugar. I avoid drinking vodka. I often crave meat yet have to work hard not to eat it every time I want it. I consider it all acts of taking care of my body and my mind.
I have issues with cholesterol, my body produces a lot of it, so I stick to a low cholesterol diet 6 days a week but allow myself one cheat day where I can splurge. I also relax if I'm being cooked for.
This is my question: isn't this attachement (or you can call it aversion) of trying to be un-attached to alcohol wrong? Doesn't that make us stuck in samsara and doomed to keep coming back?
Like I said before, in a social, psychological point of view, being able to fight your urges is considered a great success. However, in Buddhist terms, we should go further; be pushed even more to reaching a state of not even having the alcohol beckon to us each morning.
I think that's what I'm trying to ask. Maybe I'm not being clear because maybe I'm misinterpreting what is "successful" in Buddhist terms. Just trying to figure out how addictions play into this. When we see someone like Trungpa, then it starts to all fall into this "crazy wisdom" area where it gets even more confusing.
So you can use pizza or alcohol or anything-- I was in a sense asking for tips/advice, but more so in how to not let the obsession of food rule my life. Even though I may succeed and lose all of my weight and conquer the temptation every day, isn't simply thinking about it every day still considered an attachment and keeping me from enlightenment and glued to samsara (i.e. in my next life maybe I'll come back as someone who is an obsessed body builder... I dunno).
Does everyone kinda get what I'm asking now, or am I still just making no sense?
genetic....dna propensity/risk,
biological...physical neurotransmitter receptor site,
energy....?
social....need to fit in,
emotional....feel more brave or courageous or as an escape due to issues of self worth
psychological...as a crutch. maladaptive coping mechanisim, for dis-inhibition
and perhaps spiritual...karmic
Having an understand of what is at play or influence...then one can deal with/intervene at a more effective level with an appropriate technique. And understanding how all the levels are at an influence is even better.
HOWEVER... I don't go around thinking about killing people all day (unless I'm driving in Delaware). I'm sure there may be sociopaths that do this, but I'm talking about your world revolving around some form of addiction. Even though you're not giving into said addiction, it still consumes you, which is an attachment, right? So... how does one overcome THAT part of it all?
It isn't spectrum from attachment to aversion... the attachment is to the cycle of craving/repulsion which is mutually arising. Said differently, eating pizza and then falling into craving for two weeks fuels the increased fatness in body and mind that results in pushing it all away, which fuels the craving.
With warmth,
Matt
Basically if you look at a craving like a fire, whenever we engage with it positively or negatively we give it energy (like throwing a log on the fire). When we practice in meditation letting go when our mind engages it is like watching the fire until it dies out. Eventually the fire goes out and then even the embers die out, at that point even if we throw a log on the fire the fire won't start up again.
Speaking for myself and I imagine others here who have done periods of extensive and prolonged meditation. I've seen many even strong cravings diminish when engaged in intensive practice. When I've let up I've seen them come back though so I guess the embers were still there.
Over a long period of time with just my everyday sort of practice I've been able to slowly reduce my attachments. Research on meditators says kind of the same thing, expert meditators show big results but even beginners quickly show some results.
Check out Rational Recovery. It isn't an AA type thing or a 12 step thing. I don't believe you end an addiction with having to think about it every day being afraid you'd fail! But not really fair as that's the only way some people can quit addictions. I'm just not one of them. After you get a handle on eating then will you still have to deal with losing weight?
Hoping for the best for you, and lobster is right, ATTACHMENTS DO LESSEN!
It just makes me wonder why AA programs and Weight Watchers and all of these places just don't institute meditation as a practice then. It doesn't have to be labeled religious or spiritual. Meditation is about as neutral as walking or crocheting in terms of it's affiliation. Well, maybe AA does suggest it... I dunno. Never been to meetings to find out. I know they utilize a lot of 12 step practices and reliance on higher powers, but that's about all I know. And I wouldn't expect weight loss places to institute meditation, actually, considering they're in it to make money, not give you a real tool that helps you solve the problem once and for all.
Anyway, okay, I guess if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. I guess I just don't believe it's possible since I've been literally obsessed with food/diet/exercise/weight loss/weight gain my entire life. To have the attachment dwindle into nothingness would be fantastic. To be able to wake up and not constantly think to myself, "Okay, today is another day in which I will battle with eating and exercise" would be awesome. It's literally like my life has constantly been centered around this. Even when I'm at an adequate weight/in shape, it's even worse, because then I'm obsessed about *not* eating things I shouldn't. It's like my brain/mind cannot have a rest or reprieve from this attachment. Having an addictive personality, it's hard to think of life as any other way. I can only imagine how people who have severe alcohol, drug, and sex addictions get through the day. I have a hard enough time with food. And it worries me that I can't be neutral when it comes to this and diminish the attachment, because that means I will be anchored in samsara, even though on the outside it may appear that I have the attachment beaten due to having a slender body and the sort. But in my mind, it's a constant battle/obsession. I guess that's the issue... how does it become... effortless? Or is it never supposed to be effortless and I'm missing the point?
@SillyPutty
Pizza ( itself ) isn't making you eat badly for the next two weeks.... you are eating badly for the next two weeks because in your mind you have already "failed" resisting something "bad" (the pizza) and therefore feel defeated, conquered, and yeah, maybe even worthy of punishment. This isn't about "an addiction to pizza", it's about clinging to a mindset that pizza is "bad"....
There are no "good" or "bad" foods - in moderation.
And once you cross the moderation line with ANY food, it becomes problematic; AKA "bad". That's why one of the most often repeated advice is "everything in moderation is the best way to go..." Because it's TRUE.
When it comes to food- severely restricting or eliminating certain "bad" foods becomes the goal in most 'diet plans' or mindset. Once that food is placed on the No-no List, it takes on a power it normally wouldn't have- if you had given yourself permission to indulge -in moderation. Or to bring this back around to a Buddhist perspective; The Middle Way.
Forget calories, forget 'weight loss goals'.... eating healthy has little to do with dieting to lose weight. Eating healthy is to keep your body nourished and functioning at its best level- THAT is health, not the numbers on the scale.
Once you start eating healthy /healthier, losing weight may happen as a side effect, but then again it might not happen (much) at all. But if it doesn't, that still doesn't mean you haven't greatly improved your HEALTH, because you most likely have, (according to exams and blood work) and that is what counts.
Sometimes others help us find self acceptance and self love through sharing. 12 step programs are great at helping people break down the isolation and build strength. Its not much different than a specialized sangha, which is one of the jewels or pillars.
Perhaps for sillyputty the fight with weight isn't an addiction to the food or thinness, but an addiction to the fight. It gives you something to do and not be bored with "yes, eating again, exercising again". This makes life very serious work! Perhaps more silly is needed in the putty.
With warmth,
Matt
I've been researching Candida overgrowth in the body. (This is where my whole theory of a "physiological food addiction" comes into play!) Even though I agree that the majority of addcitions stem from a psychological one like you've stated, after reading about Candida illnesses, I feel like I, at least, have this problem. This is why I am struggling.
I was told I may have this problem many years ago by a doctor. To have a doctor even suggest such an issue is kinda quackery, since there is a lot of debate around Candida overgrowth and adrenal fatigue. Many people you talk to would claim it's an imagined illness, like fibromyalgia.
Ever since I was a kid, I've had a weight problem, psoriasis, allergies, food sensitives, fatigue, you name it. When I hit my mid-20's and went through a really super stressful period in my life, everything became worse. Actually, when I turned 20 I had my gallbladder out. Then the health problems just snowballed from there. Everything from sinusitis to depression and anxiety to kidney stones to crippling fatigue and low energy to digestive problems to horrible menstruation to cysts to bizarre skin problems to hair loss to night sweats to severe trouble losing weight to eyes changing to a green color! (just learned this is a definite sign of Candida overgrowth) to super sensitivity to light/the sun to joint pain to super cold/numb hands and feet (and nose) to YOU NAME IT, I HAD/HAVE IT! Everyone would blame the excess weight and my diet. Or they would go, "You sure you don't have a thyroid problem?" And then I would go see a endocrinologist and he'd just tell me that I was stressed and my blood work showed nothing. (I know Dakini recommended a specialist to see, and I'm still considering that, but for now I'm going to try the Candida detox/diet once more and see if that helps since I still have the whole money/insurance issue to contend with.) And, logically, I would think, "Ummm, yeah. It's just my fault. I need to have more willpower. Obviously I have all of these health problems *because* of my weight."
However, after reading about Candida overgrowth, I feel like I've been sick for a very, very long time and haven't even realized it. My addiction to foods that are high in yeast, fungus, and sugar is not a coincidence. It is literally a physiological addiction more so a mental one. It's taken years of trial and error to finally come to this realization. If you read up on Candida overgrowth, it makes sense. And seeing how my father used to give me anti-biotics every time I sneezed when I was a child, as well as giving me milk that I always seemed to have a horrible reaction to, it makes sense. I've just always been a very sickly kid, but people just blamed it on the weight. But the thing is, the weight was a product of cortisol and hormonal imbalances, thus this underlying issue with my body being out of balance.
So anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say here is, I believe the reason why I've always had a problem with moderation with food is because it's not possible *UNTIL* I have healed my digestive issues/leaky gut syndrome/hormonal imbalances. It is literally like if I have anything my body craves in terms of sugar/fried/salty foods, I become a dope fiend and can't stop thinking about it and the Candida-- which is a living organism-- craves it and makes you sick until you feed it what it wants. Seriously. I actually started a Candida detox a few weeks back but stopped because I made the mistake of eating something I shouldn't have eaten yet (and by yet, it takes years to heal this for some people....
Now, about the Buddhist part of this, I think I was asking because I don't see how meditation can help someone with a physical addiction. I just don't see how it's possible. I think the only way meditation can help someone become less attached to an addiction that is more physical than psychological in natures, is by helping to give a light bulb moment of how to take the steps to overcome the addiction. You know what I mean?
So, yeah... that's where I am right now. I've been beating myself up all of my life thinking it was a question of willpower or moderation. It really isn't. I have something severely wrong physiologically speaking that needs to be addressed. Then and only then will I feel and become healthier. I think meditation will keep me on the right track, yes. I think it will help me *DURING* my detox/Candida diet to overcome the attachments I have to certain foods. Oh yes. But I think if I didn't take the time to reflect on this issue of mine and really try to get to the core of why I always feel so sick and depressed and tired and have such a hard time losing weight, that I would still be going around in circles, no matter how much I tried to tell myself that moderation is key. Moderation can come *after* I have healed internally, yes. But I just think it's so sad that there are probably SO SO SO many other people in this world suffering with the same symptoms/issues as me, and constantly obsessing as to why they can't overcome their demons.
Okay, that was my rant. Thanks for all of your advice, everyone. I'm going to up the meditation and work on that, along with trying my very best to stick to this Candida detox/diet. It's so painful to go through, too. The die-off symptoms-- even with the supplements that are supposed to protect your organs-- are horrible. After 2 days of taking out the sugar and starches I was developing rashes and migraines and oh my it was just horrid.
As for AA and weightwatchers...honestly, if you look at it closely they do advocate a form of meditation. not necessarily seated meditation...but mindfulness. By digging VERY deep into yourself and learning and understand where the things come from that cause you to overeat and have issues with food. My sister's gf is in the midst of AA and is working on her fearless moral inventory step. It's intense. REALLY intense. i've known several people who have done it, and it is no less intensive than advanced meditation and what comes out of it. It is learning the same information in different ways. They may well find that adding meditation helps with this. Maybe @Tosh can elaborate on the combination. But I think the intense learning and knowing of ones challenges and how to handle them is quite like what you learn about managing your life in meditation, as well as daily mindfulness. As well as the support of a sangha. That is one thing that AA and WW and other programs also stress-community support.
It's not so simple as meditation can fix everything, and I think you know that. It's *what* meditation does for you as you go deeper into it that makes the difference. There is nothing magic about sitting on a cushion for 15 minutes or 5 hours. It's what comes OUT of it that matters. The same as working the steps in AA. The same in following the curriculum in WW. It is *all* about learning about yourself, in the end, and how to manage your demons in a way that makes your life livable, peaceful, enjoyable and whatever else.
but it seems like with all these lengthy comments (very good ones no question) there is a very simple important underlining issue here....that your making a mountain out of a mole hill.
What Im getting at is the more you dwell on this, the more time your wasting when you can simply "put it down".
A famous monk, thich nhat hanh uses the term "throw away" which is more powerful. There is a zen saying "eat when hungry, sleep when tired. nothing more then that."
So, take back your power. Pizza, cake or whatever only becomes more powerful then you unless your mind can "throw it away" and then you "eat when hungry."
Attachments become an issue when your ego is yammering at you about analysis over stuff and then you end up with lengthy threads about a mole hill.
I sincerely hope you see the deeper teaching here.
with respect and metta.
I sincerely hope you learn some compassion and realize that the "molehill" I'm creating is done in order to figure things out... to desperately search for a solution. I hope that you don't ever have to go through with what I have been living with all of my life. You wouldn't have the patience nor the resilience to deal with it.
If you really believe Candida overgrowth is the source of your problems, then the only thing I could recommend from a scientific point of view would be to drink a couple of those probiotic yoghurts everyday. If the antibiotics you were exposed to did allow for yeast to out-compete your native gut flora then these yoghurts should help replace that yeast with commensal (friendly) bacteria. Also, lots of fibre will help move things along and clean out any long standing colonies. If you like broccoli, eating a lot of that is good for the intestine.
I'm rather skeptical of the idea of the yeast moving from the gut into the blood and around the body because, well, you'd pretty quickly get multiple organ failure and die if that happened. But intestinal problems can cause a lot the symptoms you mention (apart from the eye colour thing, that's new to me) so it's possible yeast is the culprit in that sense.
I have had problems with alcohol in the past, so I get where you're coming from, the old "once you pop, you can't stop" syndrome. My personal experience was that it was entirely in my mind, which is much harder to deal with than a biochemical addiction, I'd be willing to bet food addiction is similar but there's no easy solution to that, we need to eat. Buddhism might help in that regard, but I doubt it's something you could work through alone.
You also mention you had your gallbladder out? The gallbladder is important in that it helps digest fats, if you're having trouble digesting fats because of the lack of bile from the gallbladder it could be another reason you're craving fatty/surgery foods, for the energy they give. Undigested fat might also be the cause of your "leaky gut syndrome". It's the same principle that some diet pills use, they stop you absorbing fat, but the consequence is the fat just passes straight through with... unpleasant results.
I also get where you're coming from when you talk about getting addicted to the solution to problems. I'm similar when it comes to diet or lifestyle changes I come across, I quickly take things to an extreme, so that whatever I've changed becomes the new focus of my attention, as opposed to the thing I'm trying to make better, just shifting the addiction really.
Good luck with everything, here's hoping your detox does what you hope it will.
I was simply trying to give more of a "buddhist " perspective on the subject and as best as I knew how, saying "you CAN get your power back"
I think you are to upset to see my intentions.
Yeah. Thought so.
your assuming *YOU* know what *I* can or can not handle.
are YOU me? no?.... so how do you know if I said what I did out of compassion or not?
I guess your calling me a liar then. As well as assuming how I would answer possible future issues that have absolutely nothing to do with your post whatsoever.
Clearly you have more issues then food. Anger and assuming things being 2 more.
wow...get some help.
Good luck with your severe and multiple mental issues I hope you find peace in your life.
All because I DARED to address someone's issue they were having with family members from the family members' point of view. The more I gently tried to explain myself, the angrier they got, and they ended up calling me passive-aggressive, and....a protector/sympathizer of CHILD ABUSERS! :eek: WTF?? They don't even know me! But hey, I didn't spout the party line 100%, so I guess I'm the enemy.
I left there in disgust and came here and found this thread. Makes me feel.... sad....
With warmth,
Matt
Sorry, everyone. Won't happen again. Promise. Hope you all stay healthy and never have to experience anything like I have. Ever.
Bye.
P.S. I asked @Lincoln for the thread to be deleted. So if any more of you want to get your cheap shots in, now's the chance.
come on.... now you are really being unfair.
When things escalate, you stop talking and come back later. Please work on that for next time.