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enlightenment question

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
edited November 2013 in General Banter
Outside of enlightenment, what could possibly identify delusion?

And outside of delusion, what could possibly identify enlightenment?

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    outside of delusion IS enlightenment.

    maybe I don't understand your question?
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Well I see it like this @genkaku - you might not :-) but welcome to the deluded world arising from 'my self', Samsara results in delusion of SELF - enlightenment is being awakened to the delusion, and awareness of this drives the ambition to be free of it...

    Realisation of 'Self' and 'non-self' is central to the aspect of our awareness that realises and non-judgementally discriminates the objective from the relative perspective.

    But as an unenlightened person I am probably wrong. However, my statement makes sense to me, at this time.



    JeffreyDennis1
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Does a deluded person know (s)he is deluded?
    I think (s)he can and that because of that, overcoming it becomes a possibility.
    JeffreyDandelionFullCircle
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Who decided/identified the differences...was Buddha at the time...no?

    ' a state in which the mind is not clear, one of the three poisons of Buddhism'
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moha_(Buddhism)

    I also don't think I understand your question....

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    genkaku said:

    Outside of enlightenment, what could possibly identify delusion?

    I think between enlightenment and delusion there is the questioning mind. Something feels off but we don't quite know what it is.
    And outside of delusion, what could possibly identify enlightenment?
    Clarity?





    JeffreyVastmind
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited November 2013
    genkaku said:

    Outside of enlightenment, what could possibly identify delusion
    And outside of delusion, what could possibly identify enlightenment?

    @genkaku
    If you could first find
    what is really outside of enlightenment or delusion
    then your question would answer itself.




    lobsterFullCircle
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    seems to me to be one of those questions that you can't answer by intellectual pondering, so the way I think about this kind of stuff is that I might as well just forget about it for now and continue practice until insight shows me the answer :)
    MaryAnneFullCircle
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited November 2013
    my thinking says: enlightenment and delusion are two sides of the same coin - without one, the other cannot exist. things are, just as they are, phenomenon arising due to their causal conditions arising and phenomenon ceasing due to their causal conditions ceasing. duality arises due to we trying to grab hold of things and then we taking sides based on our thinking, leading to our attachment and our aversion. thinking is not going to help to figure this out, as the act of thinking itself is based on duality, so thinking cannot figure out non-duality.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    genkaku said:

    Outside of enlightenment, what could possibly identify delusion?

    And outside of delusion, what could possibly identify enlightenment?

    The question sounds like the logical problem of two brothers and the fork in the road.
    There are two brothers who are identical twins. One of them is enlightened and one is deluded.
    What question can you ask – without knowing which brother you are speaking with - to determine the path to enlightenment?

    For possible answers see: http://gurmeet.net/puzzles/forks-in-a-road/
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    genkaku said:

    Outside of enlightenment, what could possibly identify delusion?

    Delusion identifies itself by deluding itself that it exists outside of enlightenment.
    And outside of delusion, what could possibly identify enlightenment?
    Nothing 'exists' inside of delusion as its core 'being'.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    What we know and cling to is delusion. All of it.
    I think it was Ramana who said: "Don’t believe one single thought".
    lobsterMaryAnneDennis1Hamsaka
  • Dennis1Dennis1 Veteran
    I think Genkaku said: If one is not enlightened one cannot discern delusion. There is no I which is unenlightened which can understand what prevents enlightenment-which is delusion. That delusion is threefold. The creation of a separate self with the decision to be ( in a body or...?) and the knowledge that we are separate coupled with the actuality that we are also a unity, maintained by the imaginary constructs of externals created for the purpose of a game between a unified being and a separate self. Feel bewildered? Naturally-that is the causal condition. You should reframe your question as it is poorly stated but the desire to know these factors of existence is vital and precious. Please keep at it until you are satisfied with all of your answers and your questions. Best, Dennis
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