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Anyone out there experience this?
Hamsaka
goosewhispererPolishing the 'just so' Veteran
in Meditation
I've been focused upon building samatha or 'concentration' style meditation for several weeks now. After the first two or three weeks, I noticed significant 'new' experiences as my concentration gets better. Last night, I did some vipassana as well, noting the sensation and allowing it to 'be as much as it wants to' and exploring the sensation of it in my body. I haven't done quite this much vipassana before, or maybe I haven't been so darn successful at it. It was really making sense, if you know what I mean, the sensation arises, I feel it fully as possible, and then it falls off and ceases. It was a very productive and positive experience, and I was very pleased afterward.
Then, I thought I might go to bed and fall asleep. Ha.
There are good/useful/pleasant side effects, of course, and I'm glad for those. It's the unpleasant side effects that I have questions about. Either that or I just want to share them with someone who'll 'understand'.
Several nights in the past while I've had very, very unpleasant dreams. Not big scary nightmares with monsters or evil. The dreams are about regular people, often people I know well and see often, but THEY are monstrous and evil. Meaning, they deliberately aggravate me, taunt me, steal from me and destroy my belongings in the dreams. I've had two or three dreams of almost the exact same content; it starts with a present or past 'friend' or loved family member taking on a very cruel aspect and then suddenly more people come in behaving the same way and suddenly there is a crowd of people tearing my house apart, stealing money and victimizing me in some way or another.
The worst dream was last night, and I was fighting back desperately (a new addition; in past dreams, I just screamed and chased and tore out my hair a lot). I had weapons and bombs and at the end of the dream last night, I literally strapped explosives onto my body, and detonated myself in the midst of the crowd of evil revelers. I laughed and laughed as they were destroyed. Well, not all of them were.
Then it took me about two solid hours to 'wake up'. I wasn't asleep, I wasn't awake. My parrot Axel was banging a toy into the dryer (he loves making different kinds of sounds repetitively) and this non-sleep/non-wake state was this physical and emotional pit of discomfort and angst, punctuated by Axel's GOONGGGGG sounds, until I literally wrenched myself upward out of bed (much earlier than usual). I wandered around feeling scared and uncomfortable for about an hour, aware that these dreams and 'experiences' are likely related to the progress of my meditation, and some of these experiences will be unpleasant or even frightening. After a bit of coffee and reading my shredded little self pulled it together and I have a bit of peace now.
For those of you who do similar meditation (or even different) and have had uncomfortable/unpleasant experiences after the meditation in some way, do you mind sharing them? I've read SO much material here and there and over the years, I feel pretty sure this is kind of an expected thing. I don't know what it means, but if it's just part of the development of meditation, I can totally handle it. I don't even necessarily want it to 'stop', I just want to understand and place it in a context that is helpful. Thanks in advance
Then, I thought I might go to bed and fall asleep. Ha.
There are good/useful/pleasant side effects, of course, and I'm glad for those. It's the unpleasant side effects that I have questions about. Either that or I just want to share them with someone who'll 'understand'.
Several nights in the past while I've had very, very unpleasant dreams. Not big scary nightmares with monsters or evil. The dreams are about regular people, often people I know well and see often, but THEY are monstrous and evil. Meaning, they deliberately aggravate me, taunt me, steal from me and destroy my belongings in the dreams. I've had two or three dreams of almost the exact same content; it starts with a present or past 'friend' or loved family member taking on a very cruel aspect and then suddenly more people come in behaving the same way and suddenly there is a crowd of people tearing my house apart, stealing money and victimizing me in some way or another.
The worst dream was last night, and I was fighting back desperately (a new addition; in past dreams, I just screamed and chased and tore out my hair a lot). I had weapons and bombs and at the end of the dream last night, I literally strapped explosives onto my body, and detonated myself in the midst of the crowd of evil revelers. I laughed and laughed as they were destroyed. Well, not all of them were.
Then it took me about two solid hours to 'wake up'. I wasn't asleep, I wasn't awake. My parrot Axel was banging a toy into the dryer (he loves making different kinds of sounds repetitively) and this non-sleep/non-wake state was this physical and emotional pit of discomfort and angst, punctuated by Axel's GOONGGGGG sounds, until I literally wrenched myself upward out of bed (much earlier than usual). I wandered around feeling scared and uncomfortable for about an hour, aware that these dreams and 'experiences' are likely related to the progress of my meditation, and some of these experiences will be unpleasant or even frightening. After a bit of coffee and reading my shredded little self pulled it together and I have a bit of peace now.
For those of you who do similar meditation (or even different) and have had uncomfortable/unpleasant experiences after the meditation in some way, do you mind sharing them? I've read SO much material here and there and over the years, I feel pretty sure this is kind of an expected thing. I don't know what it means, but if it's just part of the development of meditation, I can totally handle it. I don't even necessarily want it to 'stop', I just want to understand and place it in a context that is helpful. Thanks in advance
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I came to a possible conclusion that as I'm opening myself/heart up I'm feeling little vulnerable, all the walls coming down are progress, however digging up the past, contemplating and accepting and slowly moving forward has maybe left my mind a lot of filing to do when I'm asleep.
Sending you love and kindness and a peaceful nights sleep
I realize that this is hopelessly superficial, but I do think it is par for the course ... gotta address the pleasant stuff; gotta get past the unpleasant stuff. Why? Because it's part of a whole-life practice.
If Buddhism were simply a vehicle for some kind of mindless bliss, we could all go down to the corner and find the fellow selling pills and powders. Likewise, if it were just a way to spend life whimpering and complaining about how awful things were, we could join some self-referential, white-whine festival.
Gently, firmly ... practice. See what happens.
Best wishes.
@Hamsaka
There is an expression in practice of "not pushing the river." The river represents reality and our separation from it represents our delusive conditioning.
The point of practice is to allow yourself to dissolve into the river, instead of pushing against it's flow.
The pushing part is a reflection of our conditioned attempts at exerting control (an attempt at acquiring something, even if it is spiritual in our minds) whereas the dissolving part is a reflection of our loosening our hold on ego /self (renunciation).
If you think you are "Pushing the river" in your practice, check to see if you are engaged in acquisition or renunciation, grasping after something or letting go of everything.
Acquisition in a practice comes with all manner of disturbances. Renunciation of what ever you are grasping after, is it's antidote.
:wave:
So, if these dreams I'm having are reflecting an aspect of my nature, it is an aspect that is all alone trying to get control of a huge group of very uncooperative energies. And it is failing to do so LOL! It is resorting to suicide bombing, unfortunately. Although that alone is kind of interesting . . .
It WAS very intense with frustration, fear and despair. If the dreams are venting the painful sensations, then I'm grateful for them, however ugly. I can wake up, take good care of myself and smooth myself out fairly well. And be glad with the idea some 'stuff' was released.
I will get to this more when I reply to @How, but my tendency when learning can be pressured with lots of exertion. Hmmm. Two Buddha friends suggesting I go a little easier on myself?
I will look into falling asleep with the assistance of some softer Yin energies, just to be kind to myself. I'm thinking about investing in an essential oil diffuser and adding scent into my pre and post meditation routine, so soothing my rumples with gentle sounds fits right in. Thank you Lobster!
Gassho
Is it a balancing act or am I over analyzing it?
I began meditating with what felt like an imperative -- to regain and maintain my sanity. One evening I decided to listen to a Buddhist-ish audiobook I downloaded long ago and was suddenly overcome. I'd spent the day before in therapy (for some trauma issues that are nearly 'resolved') in tears and feeling so helpless and hopeless and lost. My therapist said "Tell me some more about your spiritual stuff" and I said "I sure do need it." and FELT that need very strongly.
So since then it's been a daily (several hours a day) headlong rush into serious practice. Meditation is daily, up to an hour, mostly an hour, plus reading or listening. I take it to work with me, into the barnyard, into the bathroom. Not perfectly but more and more consistently. I live alone with only a parrot and cats to annoy me and have the gift of much time alone with myself with which to study or meditate.
I'm new at this . . . all I know to do is get on the horse and ride. I draw a blank at another 'way' to approach this. I am aware even my thinking and assumptions are skewed and deluded, and am grateful when one more scale falls away.
Sorry for all the blather. I guess I don't know what it means to 'renounce' rather than 'acquire' when it comes to 'dissolving into the river'. I get it that a bare nekkid relationship with reality is the goal, and that it's more about letting things go than building them up to get there. Thank you for your post, I'm definitely impacted by it.
Gassho
anyway, that was something in the past
next time make an effort (Right Effort) to continue a bit further
you would get answers to your questions
if you do the meditation (vipassana) when walking (walking meditation) and pay attention to the sensation get through feet
that would be more productive
because
you wouldn't need to go to sleep
instead
you can sit and continue the sensation meditation further
until
you find a miraculous Experience
pleasant and successful meditation!!!
Oh. I love aroma lamps.
I would also stick to more explicit forms of vipassana for the time being: more 4NT-style "Where/what is the stress? How do I release it?", less "noting the sensation and allowing it to 'be as much as it wants to,'" because you don't know where that's going to end up.
Sorry for all the blather. I guess I don't know what it means to 'renounce' rather than 'acquire' when it comes to 'dissolving into the river'. I get it that a bare nekkid relationship with reality is the goal, and that it's more about letting things go than building them up to get there. Thank you for your post, I'm definitely impacted by it.
I think you got it right with your posted return to Lobster. Be gentle with yourself. Rather than striving for a result, try to just relax into the practice. Acquisition just infers the idea that there is something to be acquired (which is usually often ego bound) whereas renunciation is just about learning to soften our tight grip on all that maintains our identity.
First of all, "renunciation" seems to exude a 'good' quotient ... you really will be a better, shinier person if you take up renunciation as a tactic. Second, it carries with it the suggestion that renunciation is better than acquisition or holding on to something. And third, renunciation suggests trading in of bad old habits for improved new ones ... I think I'll so some meditation instead of going out and getting drunk.
What makes my teeth itch is the same thing that makes my teeth itch about believing and disbelieving: Believing and disbelieving amount to the same thing because they both posit the existence of something and hence give it force and substance. Renunciation in its most popular sense is just acquisition wearing other clothes.
I'm not trying to criticize so much as to question the practicalities. Does it actually work? Does something else work better? I suppose everyone answers such questions in their own ways in their own time. But to me, it is probably a better course simply to observe -- to be attentive to whatever it is that may seem to deserve "renunciation." Just watch and keep on watching. There is nothing good about it ... it's just a practical matter of practice. Watch and watch and watch some more.
The upshot of watching is that whatever is being watched -- once it is watched long enough and patiently enough -- will pack its bags and leave of its own accord. "I" don't need to throw it out of the house ... it just leaves. Might it come back again? Of course it might ... at which point the skills are in place to watch and watch and watch some more. This is not an exercise in virtue ... it's an exercise in what actually works.
If any of that makes much sense.
@fivebells
I find the concepts of renunciation to be no fancier than allowing phenomena to ebb and flow without trying to control it,
whereas the concept of acquisition is just the intent to control phenomena.
No need for pronouncements of hell and damnation or calls for it representing deep or shallow understandings. Just any moment of meditation.
So what is the samsaric view? Gain, loss. Pleasure, pain. fame, infamy. Praise, blame.
I've done vipassana off and on for the entire few months I've been meditating, but last night something 'clicked'. I witnessed the arising and cessation and knew it. I've been wondering what that looks like for quite a while, and lately my mind is quiet enough at times so that last night I felt like I saw it for the first time. I know I'm talking real beginner stuff here, so I haven't arrived or accomplished anything but being quiet enough to see what's really happening.
Last night wasn't particularly intense or uncomfortable DURING the meditation but obviously it churned stuff up, as per rough time falling asleep and killing people in my dreams. I experienced my meditation as 'stable' last night, and that is in comparison to the early weeks where I sat through a lot of painful stuff like dread and grief. Those sensations have mellowed so much, thank goodness. That relative stability made room for more stability (and thus improved concentration). With this in mind, I spent some time going over Jack Kornfield's vipassana teachings and those were what I used last night. I spent maybe 20 minutes doing samatha and when the quietude felt well established, I did the vipassana. Ironically it was a very 'positive' experience, like I said, I feel like I got it, finally.
FWIW I've done some deep dynamic type work in therapy in the last year, and have had huge relief and resolution. It's not my first rodeo to deal with what's in there. That said, meditation is likely much more of a deep cleaning. I believe my expectations are realistic (in that I don't have any strong ones). I definitely don't want to over-do anything, it's not kind or compassionate toward myself and I do have to function!
I'm going to back off the intensity of the vipassana tonight and revisit it in a few days. That seems wise.
Gassho
This applies to the control I might want to have over the phenomena breezing (or clamoring) through my awareness during meditation. I'm paying attention right now to how I have no control over it at all (I still think I do).
you know. the content don't matter all that much. if you can (and you definitely can) be completely and effortlessly present in your body (space) as falling-asleep happens. this is a deep meditation itself. "watching" how it unfolds and happens.
happy you're getting deep into it (i think?) Lama Zopa said once, and i subsequently read once, that when stuff like that happens you can rejoice because "it's over with now" like the rotten apple got bit into and you spat it out and now you can get back to picking apples and dissolving into the soil and whatnot.
i read recently on kevin mcLeod's site unfettered mind that he tends to tell his students to "correct the imbalance" rather than strenuously maintain the balance when starting out.
dreams are wonderful!
keep on studying and reflecting, but also don't neglect actually living life and being available to help others. cultivate the two roots, and achieve the great aim of yourself and others.
And that wool coat on your avatar is really just for warmth huh?
I was sincere then, though, and I'm sincere now. Not sure whether that protestation addresses your comment; if not, feel free to be more direct/specific.
The joke was, that an avatar of a wolf in sheeps clothing is suggesting that someone else maybe leading others astray.
Some folk think what "works" is graduated steps in understanding, each one built on the previous one, where others think that what works is simply a steadfast Ego diet that the meditation provides.
I speak for a simple meditation, available to all, where capacity is irrelevant. The when & how & where & why of it is unfolded by the meditation, each to the capacity of an individuals willingness to surrender to it.
Schools with prescribed stages of progression and understanding remain understandably skeptical of schools that have a different approach.
Your concern that someone here might not have the capacity to understand the accumulated understanding of anothers past efforts in practice, reflects your schools approach.
I don't share that concern because my meditation remains as happily unrefined today as it was 40 years ago. Anyone concerned about their capacity to not understand is free to choose the path that best suits that issue.
Respectfully
H
If you actually revisit my comments to Hamsaka you'll see we both suggested that she could be be more gentle with her practice and temporary ease up on the intensity of her focus.
No one directly told anyone to just go on an ego diet. That would better apply to the two of us.
It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard, and rock-like. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image, quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that, one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE (the caps are actually in the book). To practice introspection one must first return to the shallower levels of concentration; then one can make use of the power the mind has acquired. Highly developed concentration is just a tool. In this developing of insight by the nature method, we don't have to attain deep concentration and sit with the body rigid. Rather, we aim at a calm, steady mind, one fit for work that when it is applied to insight practice, it gains right understanding with regard to the entire world. Insight so developed is natural insight, the same sort as was gained by some individuals while sitting listening to the Buddha expounding Dhamma. It is conducive to thought and introspection of the right kind, the kind that brings understanding. And it involves neither ceremonial procedures nor miracles.
@Jeffrey can you expand on what your teacher says about it or is it kept that simple
Awareness training makes us aware, no coincidence
.
In my very limited experience, as my concentration grows in strength, my awareness does not decrease or go dim and fuzzy. It is possible, of course, and there are some 'warnings' in the suttas and from various modern teachers about not floating away into a haze during deep concentration. There's so many phenomenal things happening in that state with the body and mind perception it's definitely an issue.
I say this knowing I don't have enough practice experience to say it but here goes anyway; I don't agree that deep concentration is an obstacle to insight practice, not in my own experience (what of it there is) NOR does it make logical sense, to me, in my current level of grokking meditation work. Disagreeing with an experienced bikkhu is not something I'll do lightly, and while I disagree, I will definitely consider his words and do some reading to get a better idea of what he means.
If concentration work goes wonky and a person just goes on a mental slip n slide instead of remaining mindful and investigating the state, yeah, I'd agree with his statement wholeheartedly. Then again, he could be referring to states of concentration so deep and profound I can't begin to imagine them.
But thank you for sharing that anyway, really, and I'll put Buddhadasa on my list of reads.
Gassho
It's a healthy reminder, and that is the way I'm taking it
I've lately gone past a bottleneck (or whatever) in my meditation, and the 'fruits' of calmness of mind have pursued me into real life, and work for the last week or so. This reinforces me that I am making progress and to continue doing what I am doing. I'm also experiencing, in meditation, phenomena that I've read about, some like road signs, which is also reinforcing that I'm making progress. At the same time, I'm keeping in mind (not perfectly but often-ish) that these phenomena are JUST sign posts, not things in and of themselves, not 'fruits' in an of themselves.
In another thread(s) I mention my ADHD, which has a up-side that I didn't realize would help my meditation. Along with the inability to focus comes a hyperfocus ability, but it is no more controllable than the other -- until recently. During meditation only, so far. I can get extremely absorbed in activities to the point time distorts and everything disappears. This has NOT been a good thing, it has a compulsive element to it, an addictive element. Yet now I am beginning to deliberately CONTROL my attentiveness in meditation, via absorption/samatha, for the first time in my life. My ADHD is an issue but I've lived with it for 50 years and found a million ways to work around it, it's never been an excuse for anything. But to discover, within myself, a method to HARNESS the little 'gift' the curse carries with it is very encouraging.
Fortunately I haven't had to 'deal with' a ton of phenomena to distract me or fascinate me. I get body rushes that are mildly pleasant, and after 30 minutes or so of good concentration on the breath, there is a pleasant, mild pleasure to 'be' within, perhaps the first jhana. The only really weird stuff is hypnogogic crap happening that tells me I'm sliding into sleep rather than meditating. I hear people yelling my name, or various other bizarre and meaningless things, see dancing lizards and ugly faces. Erm, that's when I open my eyes or end the session (like I did last night). I meditated too late, and inevitably this is what happens, esp after having worked that evening.
Anyway @ThailandTom, I am going to spend time reading Buddhadasa's stuff, I'm open to all of it. I have an internal compass that I trust, and it is guiding me and so far so good. Meditation and samatha/vipassana is square in the viewer, with samatha as a foundation for vipassana. I'm still in the building foundation stage, to Buddhadasa's warnings go contrary to the obvious fruits I'm experiencing.
I'm only just beginning, and so over the years it makes sense that if I stay rigidly where I am today, it would be unskillful.
Gassho
I think personally I'm affected during a full moon, I get emotional and sometimes just need to cry, this seems to sort it out (the body is made up of what 80% water? Think about how the moon affects the tides?) Just my thoughts btw.
Anyway I've worked as a receptionist in A&E I'm not a nurse and have no medical qualifications but there was always an increase in calls/visits from public with mental health issues during a full moon @anataman and @Citta you are both medical professionals? What are your thoughts?
As for dreams I have lots of vivid dreams but I put that down to the Prozac I take and the later I take it the more vivid the dreams are.
What I notice during full moon is that I *feel* a jagged edge in the moment-to-moment. A kind of discomfort like I get when I toss hay or straw and it gets into my bra. On edge. And when things do go wrong, as they do, they go wrong *worse* or more flamboyantly.
The house supervisors in my hospital are RNs, and I've gotten close(r) to a couple of them, and they talk about these really creepy cycles they see around full moons (more patients in the psych holding area) but worse are the bigger cycles that occur more on a yearly basis or with changes in the weather.
Up here in the Pacific NW, we get huge barometric swings in the fall, high to low pressure in a few hours, and suddenly the emergency room is full of people having strokes or other cardiovascular issues :eek: . Another darkly fascinating thing one told me is about how all the weak and very old die in mid to late winter. She said to look at history, and how this has always happened wherever there is a period of inclement weather (monsoons and rain in the more tropical areas). Winter/inclement season tends to . . . well, clean up the population to to speak. Ya can hardly call it an unpleasant thought when it is so obviously true and has been since, like, forever.
Gassho
As for dreams during moon phases, I've not noticed anything noticeable (that's what I mean to write above, but o great shock, I derailed myself).
It's not really a derailment, though. The causes of particular phenomena ought to be pondered, I want to ponder it along with feedback and guidance about meditation. It's all artificially separated out and made dualistic and pluralistic by our brains anyway.
If the full moon makes the tides swell upward, why wouldn't it's gravity yank upward on our bodily fluids? Maybe a little increased intracranial pressure hmmm? No need to be female to experience that.