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Free Society?

While we were growing up we were told that we lived in the freest country in the word.
In fact, we were told, that we lived in the freest country that has ever existed.
Hmm. That's pretty impressive.

As we got a bit older, we were additionally endlessly instructed by the corporate media, and in the government schools, that there were “evil” governments elsewhere in the world. "They" weren't like “us.” Some “countries” were so evil (we were told) that “we” needed to go over there and break all of their stuff and kill lots, and lots, and lots of people, year, after year, after year.

We were told, “Freedom isn't Free.”

So what was it that made all “those other governments” “over there” so evil?
Well, first and foremost; the people in “those countries” were not allowed to be Free.
But how could we tell that they are not Free?
I'll list several things we were told. Please add to this list as you think of more:

People “over there” were not allowed to own private property.
They had to fill out endless government forms.
People "over there" even had to carry paperwork with them at all times.
People could not have a business without government permission. And, IF they were able to get permission, they were then subjected to endless regulation and routine (often by surprise) government inspections.
“Those evil governments” put people in prisons for “political” reasons. As in; even if there was no victim, the government could lock people away just because the government did not approve of their behavior. Those victims of government violence were called “political prisoners.”
“Those governments” had large percentages of the population in prisons.
People in “those evil places” were encouraged to spy on their neighbors – and even on their own family members.
Some people were even required to report things they saw to the government.
“Those governments” did random searches of cars and trucks at roadblocks.
“They” had government cameras on the streets.
“Those governments” tortured their prisoners.
And just because I'm getting tired I'll end now with; “Those evil governments had endless wars all over the planet. Sometimes the wars were to control (aka steal) resources, and other wars were simply to impose “their” form of government on others.

Every single one of these is now done by “your” government.
If these things are what made the other governments evil, then what does it say about “your” government?

And so in closing:
What do you suppose that those “evil governments” (way over there) tell the children in those government schools? That the U.S.A. is the freest country in the world, and that “their own” country is ruled by tyrants?
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Comments

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I can't, and don't want to, really argue with any of your points, they seem generally valid to me. Since its the 4th of July I'll just say that in spite of the failings of the US it did introduce freedom of the press and freedom of assembly to the world and began the explosion of representative democracy around the world over the last couple hundred years. So yes, there's a negative side to America but there are also good things.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Churchill said: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

    No, America is not a perfect country. Far from it. But in a sense, Churchill's quote could be paraphrased -- to a large extent -- about the U.S.

    Which countries do you think are better?
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited July 2011
    @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi All,

    Is American a "Free Society"?

    Woodrow Wilson didn't appear to think so:

    "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

    Metta,

    Guy
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.
    Okay. So you're happy. I'm happy for you.

  • Which countries do you think are better?

    I can not think of any government I would advocate anymore. I'm sure some are less horible than others. I am very concerned about how normal, Peaceful, individualists, (minorities of one) are treated.
    I can not think of any government which treats free individualists very well.

    I think its well past time we should start evolving towards a Peaceful and voluntary world. One of cooperation and zero coercion.

    In Peace and Metta.
  • edited July 2011
    Free society requires each and everyone understanding of freedom and lovely well beings. The best so far is Western Amitabha Paradise, you may refer to the "The Sutra of Immeasurable Life (Skt. Larger Sukhavativyuha sutra) (Ch. Wu-liang-shou ching) (Jp. Muryoju-kyo)" on how to establish the similar lovely society in everlasting joys, batches after batches, subsequently upon finishing their term of happiness, they just emigrate there. Well! you would still require basic agriculture, sanitation, housing, clothing, water, medical, transportation to facilitate products & services... :wave: Hope that every corner of the world facilitate one another to fulfil this goal of everlasting joys and bliss, you can do it and together we will achieve because you care and share :thumbsup:
  • The US did not introduce freedom of the press or freedom of assembly.

    It did play the major role in starting the democratic/republic revolution.
  • Hi All,

    Is American a "Free Society"?

    Woodrow Wilson didn't appear to think so:

    "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson
    Sheesh. This was a really prophetic statement. It's only gotten worse.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Amitabha for president :wave: :wave: :wave: :thumbsup:
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Hi Sherab and All,
    Sheesh. This was a really prophetic statement. It's only gotten worse.
    Here's some more ranting tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists...I mean...US Presidents:

    President #34's warning:



    President #35's warning:



    Where are the videos of President's #36 through #44 warning people about the powers that be? The possible conclusions that can be drawn from this (lack of warnings) are:

    1) The "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" (JFK's words, not mine) simply curled up and died despite having no one stand up to it's power. Therefore all presidents after JFK have felt no need to mention it.

    OR

    2) The presidents after JFK know nothing about this "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy".

    OR

    3) Even if current presidents are aware of the scope of this "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy", they fear their fate may be the same as JFK's if they spoke out against it.

    OR

    4) The presidents after JFK are willing participants in the "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy".

    What do you think?

    The following quote speaks volumes about exactly how free any given society (not just America) may be:

    "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws."
    - Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    OR

    the presidents after JFK didn't think talking about a monolith would get them campaign dollars and votes? :rolleyes:

    When you hear hooves its more likely to be a horse than a zebra.
  • @Guy: I especially like Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex" speech. It sounds like such a "damlibrul" term, but Eisenhower coined it.

    I also like the graduated income tax rates that were in effect during the Eisenhower administration- the top bracket was 91 or 93%. Reagan probably had Eisenhower spinning in his grave.

    Prophetic or not, like it or not, the American people have let it happen.
  • jlljll Veteran
    America has many strengths but it has many weaknesses too. One of the most glaring is believing that America is the best.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    The US did not introduce freedom of the press or freedom of assembly.

    It did play the major role in starting the democratic/republic revolution.
    Admittedly I'm not an expert in world history so could you explain the places these existed before? If you're just talking about a monarch that was nice enough to allow his subjects to do these things for the moment maybe I should have been more clear, because what I meant was that these rights were codified into law. IDK were they laws somewhere else first?
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    America has many strengths but it has many weaknesses too. One of the most glaring is believing that America is the best.
    Indeed.

  • @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.
    Japan seems the among the most racist countries on earth. The freedom they enjoy is tempered by societal strictures which would not fly in the USA. People watch each other and control is attained ,on this small island nation, by mutual consent.
    maintain racial purity= content populace= freedom?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I went on an overnight trip over the weekend, and while driving I had CNN on the radio. For an hour (or more) they were playing a documentary, which although I couldn't see it, it was quite interesting to hear the dialog. The film makers had attended numerous swearing in ceremonies where people were becoming American citizens. The ceremonies were taped (and of course, edited), and then they interviewed dozens and dozens of people who had just become citizens. Mostly they asked why these foreigners had wanted to become citizens, or other closely related questions. They interviewed people from every continent of the world. Two things stuck in my head...first, that people used terms such as "paradise" to describe America...and that a repeated theme was that Americans don't realize or appreciate what a wonderful country they live in.

    I am not saying that America is the best country in the world. I could list just as many shortcomings as many of you seem prone to do so. We are an imperfect nation and an imperfect society in a world full of imperfect nations and imperfect societies. Yet, of the 191 million immigrants who live in the world today, 20% (approximately 38 million) live in the US -- the most popular destination.
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    edited July 2011
    @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.
    Japan seems the among the most racist countries on earth. The freedom they enjoy is tempered by societal strictures which would not fly in the USA. People watch each other and control is attained ,on this small island nation, by mutual consent.
    maintain racial purity= content populace= freedom?

    I thought Japan was moving away from this 'racial purity' ideal lately. I know that it has a low number of white people there though. South Korea also has a certain 'racial purity' aspect to it as well. I was under the impression that these things were fading away with the older generations.

    These notions of racial purity are often the result of nationalistic pride.

    This pure blood thing that East Asia has makes me think of Mudbloods from Harry Potter. I know for a fact that mixed blood is frowned upon via my significant other's first-hand account of growing up in East Asia. However, I also heard it was a fading thing.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Good point vinylyn
  • jlljll Veteran
    edited July 2011
    USA is still the richest country in the world. To many people esp those from poor countries, making money is their top priority. As a country USA is huge compared to countries like Singapore or Finland or UK, ranked amongst the best places to live in the world. USA is able to absorb many immigrants and maybe more tolerant towards new immigrants.
    I went on an overnight trip over the weekend, and while driving I had CNN on the radio. For an hour (or more) they were playing a documentary, which although I couldn't see it, it was quite interesting to hear the dialog. The film makers had attended numerous swearing in ceremonies where people were becoming American citizens. The ceremonies were taped (and of course, edited), and then they interviewed dozens and dozens of people who had just become citizens. Mostly they asked why these foreigners had wanted to become citizens, or other closely related questions. They interviewed people from every continent of the world. Two things stuck in my head...first, that people used terms such as "paradise" to describe America...and that a repeated theme was that Americans don't realize or appreciate what a wonderful country they live in.

    I am not saying that America is the best country in the world. I could list just as many shortcomings as many of you seem prone to do so. We are an imperfect nation and an imperfect society in a world full of imperfect nations and imperfect societies. Yet, of the 191 million immigrants who live in the world today, 20% (approximately 38 million) live in the US -- the most popular destination.
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    A buddhist monk was once asked who he would rather advocate, the poor or the rich. The monk said he would rather advocate the rich because they realize that money does not solve all problems.

    Just a story I heard.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    USA is still the richest country in the world. To many people esp those from poor countries, making money is their top priority. As a country USA is huge compared to countries like Singapore or Finland or UK, ranked amongst the best places to live in the world. USA is able to absorb many immigrants and maybe more tolerant towards new immigrants.
    Having lived in a third world country (well, actually a "rapidly industrializing nation"), there's just as much a focus on money in Thailand as there is the U.S. Perhaps the only two differences is that the average Thai needs it for survival, and they will be as subtle as necessary to get it by whatever nonviolent means.

  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited July 2011
    @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.
    Okay. So you're happy. I'm happy for you.

    thanks, but the USA sets a very low bar.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn

    as a start... the one I'm living right now, Japan, most European countries too.

    Okay. So you're happy. I'm happy for you.

    thanks, but the USA sets a very low bar.

    And where are you from?

  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Costa Rica, but planning to migrate.
  • @person,

    in that case you are right. The US was the first to make laws of it. I guess i was a bit stupid and thought you meant that they came up with the concept and struggle of such things. It was in England where the struggle for a free press began.

    Freedom of assembly can be seen throughout history, especially in egalitarian societies. But in terms of making it a law and being made by a modern style government the US was the first.

    so yea, I guess you were right :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Costa Rica, but planning to migrate.
    See, here's the problem. We could undoubtedly begin listing all the problems with Costa Rica and talk about what a "low bar" it sets on any number of standards. What good would that do us?

  • @vinlyn

    ...the low bar was just a comment.
  • mithrilmithril Veteran
    ...we were told...
    I'm glad the internet solved your problem.

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Hi Jeffrey,
    OR

    the presidents after JFK didn't think talking about a monolith would get them campaign dollars and votes? :rolleyes:
    What exactly are you suggesting here?

    1) Are you suggesting that the problem (i.e. "a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy") is real but talking about it doesn't serve their purposes of getting elected? If this is what you are suggesting then it is not a valid reason for why no other presidents have talked about this issue because Eisenhower gave his speech at the END of his term in office; he had no motivation for campaign dollars or votes. Where is George Bush's speech about the dangers of "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" or "military-industrial complex"?

    OR
    When you hear hooves its more likely to be a horse than a zebra.
    2) Are you suggesting that the "monolithic ruthless conspiracy" JFK spoke about and the "military-industrial complex" Eisenhower spoke about and the "Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men" which Wilson spoke about are all "zebras" (unlikely to be true)?

    OR

    3) Are you suggesting that the problem (of a "monolithic ruthless conspiracy") is somehow not a real problem anymore for all those presidents who have been elected after JFK? If so, how exactly did this problem disappear?

    OR

    4) Something else - if so, what?

    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    I am suggesting that a monolithic ruthless conspiracy may or may not exist..

    AND that is in no way shape or form connected to the abscence of talk about that topic since Kennedy.

    Rather the reason people don't mention it would be because they wouldn't get elected speaking that rhetoric anymore. Its not the flower era anymore.

    It would be more like a horse to think they are interested in their own ass, re-election as opposed to something else. The idea of a monolithic ruthless conspiracy = zebra.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Its not a centralized conspiracy. The military industrial complex is a mandala. It is decentralized. There is no don. Just players.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    There is also a farm industrial complex.. and a service industrial complex.. etc... Of course the military intereacts with industry :)

    That computer you are typing on is part of the military industrial complex btw
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Unplug nemo. Take the red pill ;)
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Vinlyn,
    I am not saying that America is the best country in the world. I could list just as many shortcomings as many of you seem prone to do so. We are an imperfect nation and an imperfect society in a world full of imperfect nations and imperfect societies. Yet, of the 191 million immigrants who live in the world today, 20% (approximately 38 million) live in the US -- the most popular destination.
    I do not deny that many of us in "western" countries such as America and Australia do enjoy a comfortable and, in some cases, luxurious lifestyle. Compared to the average standard of living in many other countries in Africa or South America or the Middle East (and now even many European countries are moving towards poverty) we live like kings. However, in many cases, one of the reasons why the poorer countries are so poor is because many of their natural resources are stolen by foreign corporations with the help of the IMF.

    Those foreign corporations then turn those natural resources into "goods" which they sell to us, the middle-class consumers in "western" countries. We (the middle class, which continues to become a smaller and smaller minority on the world stage) get enough toys so that we don't complain.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my lifestyle, I am in the same (sinking) boat as most everyone else. The problem is how dependent we have become on "the system" to provide for us. We go to work, get pieces of paper with symbols on them, then hand them in for food. People in "developing countries" are continuously sold the idea that city life is more comfortable (and it is) than living a simple farming life in small communities. If leaders of "enemy" nations cannot be corrupted they are over-thrown and corrupt leaders are put in place who are prepared to sell their country out in exchange for some toys.

    "The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more"

    - H. W. Prentis (?)

    Dependency (on big government) is only one step away from bondage. We need to look for and explore alternatives to the dependent lifestyle which controls almost every aspect of our life and everyone else on this planet. This is not "America's problem" this is humanity's problem.

    The more we move closer to a "one world government" the greater the need to break free. It won't be easy, it won't be comfortable, but it seems to be increasingly necessary.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Where does the original bondage come from in Prentis quote?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I agree with you to a large extent. Unfortunately most of the 'no big government' message gets co-opted by people who don't want to pay taxes for valuable government services such as education and helping the needy.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Jeffrey,
    Its not a centralized conspiracy. The military industrial complex is a mandala. It is decentralized. There is no don. Just players.
    Sure, global elitists don't agree with each other about everything - they are all individuals. However, whenever there is a goal or a threat that is in their common interests, you can be sure that they will put aside their differences.

    There are "dynasties" though within the global elitists. For example, look at the history of the Rockefeller family:



    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I just wouldn't go so far as to think the world trade center was an act of a rogue capitalist... Thats rather far fetched.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    In any case what is the topic? The world trade center? I don't believe that and all you have are speculations and circumstantial arguments.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Jeffrey,
    I just wouldn't go so far as to think the world trade center was an act of a rogue capitalist... Thats rather far fetched.
    Not any more far fetched than some Muslims in a cave who hate our freedom supposedly being responsible.

    Besides, money is not the endgame. The endgame is total control of the world. Money is just a means to an end.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    how does they get total control of the world if there are more than one of them?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Shouldn't there be 'hits' on random billionaires as they vie for power?
  • AmeliaAmelia Veteran
    I just wouldn't go so far as to think the world trade center was an act of a rogue capitalist... Thats rather far fetched.
    That idea is far-fetched.

    It is not far fetched that the extremely old families that have most of the world's wealth and power would want to have a hand in the events of the world.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    how are the families organized? Is it like the godfather?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    @GuyC I don't think your politics are that far away from mine. I just don't put much weight into a global shadow conspiracy and don't believe 9/11 was anything other than a terrorist attack. I think its just greedy powerful people who are unscrupulous about holding onto and increasing their control.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Jeffrey,
    In any case what is the topic? The world trade center? I don't believe that and all you have are speculations and circumstantial arguments.
    Regarding 9/11, if you bothered to watch the (whole) video from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth that I posted on the other thread then you will see that there is hard evidence.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    If they do exist what is the motivation to oppose them anyhow? Leon Basin wondered with a post if we are slaves of aliens spiritually. I said I don't really care. I treat my animals and my family well.

    You can't fix samsara.
  • AmeliaAmelia Veteran
    It is not hard to find out how these families are organized. It isn't some crazy conspiracy theory-- it is simple history:

    "The Money Masters"
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