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Scientific Evidence for Survival. Of consciousness after death.
DaltheJigsaw
Mountain View Veteran
Dr. Ken Ring published a paper in the Journal of Near-Death Studies (Summer, 1993) concerning near-death experiencers who, while out of their bodies, witness real events that occur far away from their dead body. The important aspect to this phenomenon is that these events seen far away are later verified to be true. Experiencers not only witness events from great distances, but they have been documented to hear conversations between people at the same events. Conversations such as these have also verified to be true. An even more fascinating phenomenon occurs when the experiencer actually appears in spirit to someone, usually a loved one, during their NDE and it is verified to be true by the experiencer and the loved one. It is evidence such as this, if scientifically controlled, that can provide absolute scientific proof that consciousness can exist outside of the body. A scientifically controlled NDE that can be repeated which provides such evidence would be the scientific discovery of all time. However, science does not yet have the exact tools to accomplish this. But, science is coming very, very close. This kind of evidence and others provide very strong circumstantial evidence for the survival of consciousness.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
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Comments
Sorry Leon, but personally I don't see what speculating about any of that has to do with the importance of paying attention to my practice in the here and now.
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He doesn't have to be an MD to be qualified to do a study like this. So much the better that he's a psychologist--he can certify the test subjects aren't loony tunes.
Besides, we already know consiousness can exist outside the body. Physicists tell us consciousness is a field that pervades the universe, and that consciousness is no-local. My theory is (pardon me while I blatantly speculate) that at death, the individual consciousness begins to fade back into the universal consiousness field. Communication, awareness of distant events, and astral travel would be automatic and instantaneous at that point.
Leon, this is great, but maybe next time put it in "General Banter", where the speculative and only tangentially-Buddhist topics go, so as to avoid flack. Keep these scientific studies coming, though. :thumbsup: IIRC, the Dalai Lama, among others, encourages scientific studies that confirm the validity of Buddhist practices and beliefs. This study has a bearing on teachings about the "very subtle mind" that survives death.
Being aware outside the body (OBE) is one thing and being aware near to death (NDE) another, and being aware 'after' death yet another.
Any of this is not scientific (reproducable) but only speculation unless directly understood.
Cheers
I notice that one of the NDE studies was published in the British science journal, "The Lancet". That peer-reviewed publication doesn't accept articles that don't meet high scientific standards. This is big news, IMO.
Please, folks, if you don't approve of a topic, move on and leave it for the rest of us to enjoy. There is no rule on the forum against scientific articles nor against speculative topics.
I think when it comes to consciousness after death, they don't need to agree. It's enough that there are open-minded MD's, scientists and other researchers out there studying this, and that the results of some of these studies are now getting published in reputable science journals. That's huge! Now, if someone would just study Kundalini in the lab, that would be another breakthrough.
I didn't know there was a Journal of Near Death Studies. That sounds interesting. Is that still around?
Where did everybody go? We used to have a bunch of members who were interested in this subject.
We also have people who have never experienced such things, but who regard them as Buddhist teaching on the natural world. To such people it likewise isn't a big excitement for science to begin to consider natural phenomena that Buddhism has been addressing for a couple of thousand years; it's very old news.
We also have people here who have never experienced such things and who do not regard such things as within the realm of belief and possibility... would they bother to read a thread about a subject they consider to be beyond belief and possibility? Not likely.
Many believe we see "evidence" all the time. The 3 yr old who can play a violin like a seasoned vertuoso. A 5 yr old who is composing concertos on the piano as if they've been doing it for a lifetime. The idiot savant who can't tie his own shoes, but can solve hugely complicated math problems. Etc.
Personally I see this transfer of consciousness as natural phenomenon that we can witness all the time. If we just look with an open mind.
Can anyone associate the primordial fear of death as the root cause of the pursuit of scientific evidence for "survival" of consciousness after death?
It occurs that over the relatively short era of human existence - if this transgenesis of consciousness is occurring with the reliability attributed it by the "open minded" - why aren't there any recollections of past lives as a dinosaur - a slug - a geranium - a demon - a hungry ghost? How is it that this pseudo scientific field of speculative belief can rely upon "evidence" that presupposes rebirth or reincarnation only occurs across the human species. What arrogance. And where is the research that brings understanding of dwelling in the emptiness of death beyond constant rebirth - for certainly if rebirth occurs - it ends at some point. This is fruitless banter (maybe that should be a new category for discussion on Newbuddhist) because ultimately sides are drawn up between the skeptics and the believers.
I would posit that not just a bunch of members are interested in this - but every single solitary one - because no matter how whole or fearless one professes to be in their practice - the primordial fear of death is ever present -especially when one is actually dying - and "near death" just doesn't compare.
Unfortunately, science still hasn't gotten over its prejudices in this regard, though. The research listed in the OP's catalogue is still considered to be fringe efforts. But there are some new names cropping up that weren't there 20 years ago, which is a good sign, and the fact that some of the work is being published in established science magazines is encouraging. It's possible that science will eventually end up opening to the possibility of various "paranormal" phenomena through the back door of quantum physics.
3-year old prodigies do look like possible evidence of rebirth, but those cases don't tell us anything about NDE's, specifically.
Belief in rebirth doesn't necessarily mean we will be reborn. It's not necessarily a comfort. This could be the last rebirth for any of us. There's always that possibility. oops--but this isn't a rebirth thread. My bad.
NDE's comfortably fall into the same category as Bigfoot, ufo's, alien abduction, astral projection, astrology, crystal healing, ancient astronauts, nature spirits, rebirth, reincarnation and Tarot - at least in the minds of skeptics who dismiss them as anything but factual.
Condescension and dismissiveness is to be expected in return for skepticism.
Fruitless Banter still sounds more appropriate.
"At least in the mind of skeptics", is key here. Have you read any of the books or articles listed in the OP's link? There's some pretty impressive stuff there. The scientists who review articles for "Lancet" clearly don't agree that NDE's are in the same category as alien abduction and Bigfoot. We have members here who do astral projection. Pretty interesting. And Gui described his own NDE on another thread recently, and its after-effects. But to skeptics, this is all anectodal.
Skeptics have their place just as believers and respect for the sincerity of believers in their "very interesting" beliefs and practices is not misplaced by skepticism.
The guy with the photos of Bigfoot footprints and other film footage eventually admitted he'd faked it all, btw.
Is Dhatu around or has he rebirthed as someone else ...?
/Victor
Nice wisecrack, funny. But I know too many people who've had NDE's to be able to dismiss it entirely.
That being said...
I did not really get the question from Leonbasin if there was one. So I guess this is not a discussion? But I would just like to point out that.
1. Psychology is a science. Therefore a Psychologist is a Scientist.
2. Also the meaning of Doctor is a title to denote a certain standing in any scientific field not just that of medicine. Even if it is incorrectly used that way by many.
But I think that has been said already.
I have not read it all In any case a very good article.
I think I have had out of body experiences without being near death.
But never tried verifying it by searching for "proof" though.
Schamans (no not me) do that kind of stuff on a more or less regular basis.
I think we put too much faith in science. Just becasue it is admitted by science a thing is true?
Guess what penecillin was used long before it was proved usefull by scientists. And so was acupunture.
In this case I agree with nibbuti. Personal experience is way better that scientific proof.
Cheers
/Victor
Leon likes to post articles and videos on scientific studies that validate Buddhist practices or the paranormal, just to see what happens. So there wasn't a question, just a provocative OP. hmm...he's studying psychology, maybe these OP's of his are some sort of psychological experiment on us all. lol--I'm kidding.
Some people still don't believe acupuncture is "scientific", although health insurance companies have finally decided it's "real" enough to cover. Long ago,hospitals, I read, used to set broken bones with the help of an electric probe. They didn't know why it worked, they just knew by observation that it did. But the AMA made them stop, because there was no scientific theory behind it. Now they know more about the body's electrical properties, but it's still dismissed. Some of the Native American tribes around where I live have professional bone-setters. Healers with an unusually high electrical charge, who specialize in setting broken bones.
I have had a NDE ( at about 15 years of age ) which involved me being terrified and it lead to me then experiencing the first of many panic attacks, I therefore also can relate to the fear that IronRabbit was referring to ... death in palliative care and NDE ( and also sudden deaths, when the individual has some awareness) are generally very different in my experience.
My interpretation of my NDE, at the time and now many years later, was of intense free floating fear and being drawn somewhere I was not ready to go - it has not had a big impact on my practice.
Quote:
Nancy Evans Bush, president emeritus of the International Association for Near-Death Studies, says the experience is revelatory. "Most near-death survivors say they don't think there is a God," she says. "They know."
End of quote.
Experience is more important than narrow-minded scientific evidence. There’s a God after all.
I rest my case.
(That was sarcastic. Sorry.)
But there’s a serious point to what I’m saying. When we believe so easily what we think we experienced and when we are uncritical about peoples’ accounts of what they think they experienced, the door is wide open.
And it is open to all sorts of irrational beliefs; not just the Buddhist ones.
Quote:
Unfortunately, science still hasn't gotten over its prejudices in this regard, though. The research listed in the OP's catalogue is still considered to be fringe efforts.
Unquote.
There‘s a problem with the study of NDE.
If you want to do it in the right controlled setting you would have to bring people into near-death state in your laboratory and do experiments with them.
That would make it unethical.
Other paranormal claims have been studied. And if the results would be promising there would be a lot more of it. There would be great applications for psychic abilities.
But so far it’s just not there.
And I find @IronRabbit's assertions about "primordial fear of death" puzzling. Does everybody have it? Where's the proof?
I found a serious review of CONTEMPLATIVE SCIENCE: WHERE BUDDHISM AND NEUROSCIENCE CONVERGE. By B. Alan Wallace
http://law.hamline.edu/files/Butler.Rev_.pdf
Quote:
To further illustrate, Wallace solves the mind/matter problem by simply asserting that the ground state of consciousness attained through samatha is the source of all mind-based events. So, by sheer assertion, Wallace claims he has solved the mind/brain problem. It is doubtful that scientists will be amenable to Wallace’s esoteric, unverifiable Buddhist statements, because contemplative science is not a falsifiable or testable theory. Without invoking Wallace’s idea of a contemplative science, researchers can still shove monks into machines and allow magnets to skate across their fluctuating cognitive states. It seems doubtful that neuroscientists will be enlightened by Wallace’s claim to call profound meditative states primordial substrates of consciousness that transcend space and time. In this respect, as I mentioned previously, the subtitle is highly misleading: Neuroscience is hardly dealt with in the text. Wallace prefers to deal with metaphysical solutions rather than data sets.
Unquote
That's interesting and makes sense. I'll look into that, I've only read one book of his so far.
He has set up a centre in Thailand to study the psychological and neurological effects of prolonged shamatha practice. I believe the project is still in its infancy.
You can read more but ultimately I believe only through some sort of spiritual practice you might gain experiential insights that shed some light on this and what effects it has on your life. I myself am quite scientifically minded, so I would read stuff by bona-fide scientists
who are open enough to investigate these things, such as Alan Wallace, Ian Stevenson or Rupert Sheldrake. I would definitely stay away from any New Age or amateur "paranormal phenomena investigators". I have a feeling this would be the predominant group if you hang out on forums, but who knows, maybe there is some serious forum about it somewhere.
Proof? Every living thing is hard wired to live and avoid death at all costs and in any way, including meditation.
It should not be too difficult to see then that the ever present primordial fear of death is the prime motivator to seek psychological and neural states through meditation (or any religious, shamanistic, metaphysical, etc. practice) that address this fear - to seek to prove that consciousness somehow continues after physical dissolution - to believe that one may experience memories of past lives and that they may live future yet unknown lives - to associate near death experience dreamlike memories of "living" - not being dead, despite clinically being described as such - with "survival".
Understand, this primordial fear is mentioned not as in Thanatophobia or Necrophobia - obsessions that may overtake one's life and require treatment. It is mentioned empathetically as a recognized shared trait of sentient beings - to identify a core element of existence to be aware of - to accept and cope with in whatever means necessary without judgement - but with awareness.
Outright denial of the ever present primordial fear of death is the epitome of delusion and naivete at worst - at best, just plain misconception.
"Usually we think that brave people have no fear. The truth is that they are intimate with fear. When I was first married, my husband said I was one of the bravest people he knew. When I asked him why, he said because I was a complete coward but went ahead and did things anyhow."
Pema Chodron from "When things fall apart".
My primary objection is your assumption about this fear being ever-present and it's not possible to be free from it.
What about the people who meditate/practice spiritual path and don't believe that "consciousness somehow continues after physical dissolution" and don't seek to prove it?
Again, my primary objection is your assumption about this fear being ever-present and it's not possible to be free from it.
This is the point of referring to this fear as primordial - it is integrative - and we are free from it when we cease to exist - but while living it never departs and contributes much to motivate us to unceasingly, and sometimes incautiously pursue a path that allows us to coalesce primordial fear with equanimity.
Being free from fear then can only mean freely and openly admitting fear's presence.
Those who seek a spiritual path beyond proving survival of consciousness without proof are not immune or free from primordial fear - for the suffering they wish to alleviate is merely another projection of a very natural dissatisfactory preoccupation with living (samsara) of which death is an integral part - if not the most important part.
"Good health is simply the slowest way a human being can die." - author unknown
I've read about cases in which, in the last days of life the dying see a deceased love one or close friends welcoming them. The phenomenon described is one of the consciousness fading in and out of the body, crossing over to "the Other Side" and back, until the final departure from the body. Those cases are always described as peaceful, as they've seen that life continues in another "dimension", and they will be with loved ones. Make of that what you will.
@andyrobyn Although the common perception of NDE's among those who believe in that or are at least open to it, is one of a positive experience, a couple of researchers have reported cases of frightful NDE's. People do not always go to a "nice" place, for whatever reason. Thank you for sharing your experience.
@Zenff I am not realy certain what you mean but what else is there other than personal conviction?
Do you understand the meaning of anatta? That there is no thing that is objectivley worth more than anything else? Why then try to elevate science above all else?
Is it that you trust western science more than the axioms of Dharma?
Forgive me if I misunderstood.
/Victor
and "hospitalization with opiates" constitutes death in an elite country club that excludes all but a select handful of the population of the earth.
The OP is about “scientific evidence”. I’m not the one who brought it up this time.
I think there is no scientific evidence for survival of consciousness after death; that’s all.
In my personal opinion the Dharma is something flexible and alive.
It is not a fixed dogmatic system of thought; not a static image of the world.
Dharma is the tool for liberation. It can be improved.
What I like about science is that it is open to change and improvement.
In science anything goes; you just have to fit your ideas in with the facts.
So the idea that any drugs used in Palliative Care would necessarily ammeliorate a " primordial fear " I would disagree with.
The relevant point for me, and from what I have experienced and seen over time from various meditation practices is that the NDE was happening in my mind, anxiety, panic and other mental states are happening in the mind. I am not sure that they tell us much about what happens to our conciousness after death of the body.
This is the main issue I have with your argument. You assume that most people have an 'unimaginable amount of fear' about death with nothing backing it up. It seems like pure conjecture based on either personal anecdote or just supposition from how you feel about death and imagine others do. If you actually have some articles or papers saying this is the case could you provide some links?
At that age I had not thought much about death and was not conscious of any fear of death. I had, however, been very anxious as a child and quite driven and perfectionistic in personality.
NDE is referring to near death experiences. I had stopped breathing and my pulse couldn't be found ( so this could be called death ) - without the fact that two medical doctors were present and intervened very quickly with the access to IV drugs, fluids etc. to commence and continue artifical respiration and support my circulation, my body tissues, organs, systems would have been irreversably affected.
My personal understanding is that it was certainly related to the biochemical changes occuring in my body and I strongly suggest this is the case in all NDE.
As I also suggested earlier, for me the important factor is that it was the seed of my panic and anxiety disorder which drove my exploration and search for understanding and meaning initially. This has involved Jungian psychotherapy, exploration of different faiths and beliefs, Catholic practice and eventually in 1980's Tibetan Buddhism.
My psychotherapist had an interest in NDE and he informed me that fear is a feature , less common than bliss and peace, but one that is commonly described.