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Scientific Evidence for Survival. Of consciousness after death.
Or maybe I felt fear as my karma meant that I was about to be reborn into the hell realms - or worse - lol. Before anyone has time to get upset about my attempt at humour ( well, hopefully BEFORE anyway), I am a TB practitioner and it is good being able to laugh at ourselves, isn't it - well, for me it is good that I can now take what was a terrifying experience lightly. Maybe some would say it was because I hadn't purified my karma yet. For me this is not the understanding which I have gained from my practice in TB and it is certainly not how I understand the teachings of the Pali canon either. I am in the here and now school too - and my practice has helped to define the things that we can not yet know - I think there is a strong possibility that science may one day be able to explain the experience, and I think it with involve the neuroscientists as well as the psychologists. My practice and experiences with nursing and many deaths in my family and friends has helped me come to a degree of acceptance of death.
@andyrobyn, I think it is a great public service and very courageous of you to share your story with others. All too often in the community teenaged girls do get drugged by so-much-less-than "friends" who define "party" as the systematic drugging and raping of young women. It's the ugly little secret behind a tremendous amount of pain in the community, and promoting public awareness of this problem is vital.
For those of us who experienced an NDE as a consequence of physical trauma, intense physical pain physically occupied every neuron of our consciousness at the time. Far from anything to be feared, dying was an absolutely wonderful release and relief from both body and overwhelming pain. Dying was a wonderful release, a wonderful experience. Reattaching to the body and having to breathe again, on the other hand, was both difficult and painful.
In your case, however, it sounds as though you went from healthy and happy in the middle of a party, to suddenly traumatically unconsciously drugged senseless and dead on the table.
I cannot even begin to imagine what horrendous confusion, turmoil, and total disorientation such a sudden traumatic and somewhat less-than-conscious experience would cause. What happened to you was far from the conscious, willing, and expected release of life and body that generally accompanies death for those of us who are very aware that our bodies have been shattered and are bleeding to death, or which perhaps have been slowly failing us for some time. Unlike a conscious acceptance and release of life and release of the body, in your case it seems as though your life was being suddenly unwillingly wrenched away from you when you were in no condition of wishing to release the body at all.
I know one woman who likewise survived a drug-induced NDE as you did, but she did not share your traumatic experience with her NDE at age 16. From my own experience of NDE, and from listening to her own accounts, I would say that although I was a "traumatic injury" and she was an "attempted suicide" what we had in common with each other, but did not have in common with you, was the intention and willingness to release the body. She was a more than willing suicide, and I was too physically broken and in too much pain to want to go on. You, on the other hand, had apparently been fine and happy when you suddenly traumatically ended up in a position of having your body unwillingly wrenched out from under you, contrary to your will, and pulling your consciousness in two different directions at once. I can easily understand why that would result in an NDE that would be a horrific and terrifying experience... the equivalent of having one's consciousness suddenly torn in half, I would imagine.
concerning near-death experiencers who, while out of their bodies, witness real events that occur far away from their dead body. The important aspect to this phenomenon is that these events seen far away are later verified to be true. Experiencers not only witness events from great distances, but they have been documented to hear conversations between people at the same events. Conversations such as these have also verified to be true. An even more fascinating phenomenon occurs when the experiencer actually appears in spirit to someone, usually a loved one, during their NDE and it is verified to be true by the experiencer and the loved one.
Well, yes. People are pan-dimensional. The connections between them are beyond time and space. People have been observing these phenomena and Buddhism has been commenting on these phenomena for a couple of millennia.
Thank you for your kindness shown toward my unpleasant experience, aura. Whilst the intentions of my young friends who foolishly drugged me were not for rape this is a common occurence. I believe as you describe well the occurences of NDE have something to say to us about the potential of the mind.
There is a category for speculative topics. It's called "General Banter". NDE's aren't about rebirth, they're about what happens after death. The fact that consciousness survives death doesn't imply there is rebirth. No NDE experiencers or researchers that I know of has spoken about rebirth. Nor is this about past life recollections. These issues are being conflated here. This is not what the OP is presenting.
There is a book on in-between life states. I don't recall the name, and I read another book that said that your consciousness expands at death, and I wish i knew what book that was.
I see no reason for bashing people because they desire to talk about this subject, and if they read about it because they fear death, so what?
Nancy Evans Bush, president emeritus of the International Association for Near-Death Studies, says the experience is revelatory. "Most near-death survivors say they don't think there is a God," she says. "They know." End of quote.
I have read a lot of near death experiences and people come back with a stronger faith in God due to experiencing God. Perhaps she meant that they know there is a God. This knowing is what I know.
There are many scientists that believe in God and for very good reason. Buddha never said that there wasn't a God, but whether he did or not, I really don't care because I do believe in God more than I would ever believe in Buddha.
Near-death experiencers who have actually seen the brilliant light and experienced the ecstatic love, know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God, they never want to leave. But they are told it is not their time to die, so they return having this experience of God seared into their very hearts and minds.
I vaguely recall from the book by Moody I read ages ago that people tend to see what they believe in during NDEs. So someone will see Jesus, and someone else will see light, etc.
@Thao, The Buddha pointed out that the belief in a creator was wrong view, many times. But, believe what you want.
What one sees, literally is light, is energy. The familiar patterns of mind, the mental formations that one's body uses to make sense of/interpret that light goes in accordance with one's customary and familiar patterns of mind. Both the Buddha and Jesus of Nazareth spoke about the light... the Light beyond all other light... but neither forbade people from using their own familiar terms and imagery to come up with some sort of comfortable manner of interpreting that light.
I vaguely recall from the book by Moody I read ages ago that people tend to see what they believe in during NDEs. So someone will see Jesus, and someone else will see light, etc.
It is my opinion that this is correct. I had a NDE and my experience was in line, so to speak, with my understanding of reality at that time. I believe these experiences to be no more than the last dream.
I talked with IANDS, and that quote from Nancy means this: They know that there is a God. You can read Nancy Bush's blog at http://dancingpastthedark.wordpress.com/
I was an atheist before my own experience. The God I experienced was not the God of the Old Testament. People who experience God also don't experience God the same, It is only a God of Love, not judgement, etc.
You might be interested in Antony Flew's book, There is a God. He was a notorious atheist who finally came to the conclusion that there was a Divine Being that created the universe. I don't believe he ever became a Christian, just as I never could.
Interesting, I'll check that out. God of Love is something that I believe can be squared with Buddhism, we have quite a few members who have been discussing that. I'm not sure about the creator though. But, we're going off-topic a bit.
I vaguely recall from the book by Moody I read ages ago that people tend to see what they believe in during NDEs. So someone will see Jesus, and someone else will see light, etc.
This is true in a certain respect. But there are also commonalities to NDE's across cultures all over the world, according to reports. Those who believe in Jesus may see Jesus, or simply experience Divine energy that they identify as "God". Those who are pantheistic or are Buddhists interpret the Light (if they see one) according to their own belief system. So both statements are true--that experiences vary by culture, because of cultural preconditioning, but from a broader perspective the experiences are similar, because the phenomena that trigger the process of cultural interpretation are almost universal.
This is the first time I've read on this forum that the Buddha said that belief in a creator was wrong view. When the topic of the Buddha's teaching on a supreme deity or creator has come up in the past, people have said the Buddha responded that the question wasn't relevant. So if you have other teachings to point out that we haven't heard about, paul, I'm open to checking them out, if you could reference them.
@Dakini - I haven't got the time now to search for this but a quick search found Tittha Sutta and also this:
In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god (issara-nimmana-vada) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world; as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however, is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their effect on ethical conduct.
there are also commonalities to NDE's across cultures all over the world
Yes, most definitely. You have also convinced me of the necessity of issuing a public service announcement on NDE.
Death is a universal in this world. Because death is universal, getting extremely close to death, not passing out of life, and thereby experiencing an NDE (near death experience) is very common in the world.
Dying is a distinct phenomenon unto itself that is completely apart from any illness, accident, pain, fear, old age, trauma, or anything else that one might associate with dying.
If you or someone you know has experienced an NDE, please note that the dying process is a process of releasing the body, and that subsequent to an NDE it is therefore important to attend to reattaching and re-grounding the consciousness throughout the body. Various traditions have various different methods of physically working with the grounding of the consciousness to and through the body, but if one has no such tradition, qigong, tai chi, and yoga all have exercises consisting of simple physical movement and breathing that are designed to help ground the consciousness firmly in the body, and which are of particular benefit post-NDE.
@Dakini - I haven't got the time now to search for this but a quick search found Tittha Sutta and also this:
In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god (issara-nimmana-vada) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world; as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however, is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their effect on ethical conduct.
Like to know who wrote that. I cannot believe that the belief in God is negative especially in regards to ethics. Even Christ believed in God and Karma, saying "You reap what you sow." If you read how these people changed who experienced God in their NDEs you would see that it made them more moral and loving, not less. (And I am not speaking of you personally, just a generalization.)There are many loving Christians who have high moral values due to their teachings, just as there are Buddhists who do not use right speech, who in turn, take all of the precepts and turn them upside down to the point where they are allowed to lie, eat meat, have sex with disciples in the name of enlightment, and drink alcohol. Belief in karma didn't help them. Whoever wrote that doesn't know what they are talking about.
Loss of the fear of death, more spiritual and less religious, easily engage in abstract thinking, more philosophical, can go through various bouts with depression, more generous and charitable than before, form expansive concepts of love while at the same time challenged to initiate and maintain satisfying relationships, "inner child" or unresolved issues from childhood tend to surface, less competitive, convinced of a life purpose, rejection of previous limitations in life and "normal" role-playing, heightened sensations of taste-touch-texture-smell, increased intuitive/psychic abilities plus the ability to know or "re-live" the future, charismatic, a child-like sense of wonder and joy, less stressed, more detached and objective, can continue to dissociate or "separate" from the body, easily absorbed ("merge into" whatever is focused on), hunger for knowledge and learning, highly curious.Near-death experiencers come to love and accept others without the usual attachments and conditions society expects. They perceive themselves as equally and fully loving of each and all, openly generous, excited about the potential and wonder of each person they see. Their desire is to be a conduit of universal love.
That bit caught my attention too, and I don't necessarily agree. However, how can you marry a belief in creator-God with the law of cause and effect? You would have to posit a first cause.
That bit caught my attention too, and I don't necessarily agree. However, how can you marry a belief in creator-God with the law of cause and effect? You would have to posit a first cause.
For those who believe in a creator-God, a creator-God is generally defined as transcending time; ergo without a first nor next anything. For those who believe in a creator/God and also acknowledge the workings of karma, the wheel of life is another lap around the track on a helix, with the helix rooted at both its origin and terminus in a creator/God transcendent of time. For those who do not believe in a creator/God but acknowledge the workings of karma, the wheel of life is either just another lap around the track on a helix, with primordial gunk at its origin and enlightenment at its terminus, or an infinite loop of the here and now which does not ever really move at all in the stillness of infinity.
if logic says that it is impossible for there to be a creator God and karma, then I would have to say there is a creator God and skip the belief in karma. I have never known if that belief exists, and I have not cared, because I don't run my life on karma. I only believe in doing what is right because it is the right thing to do or because I don't wish to harm others, and not because I fear karma. And yes, God transcends time. I do not believe that this God dies and I don't believe that we do either.
of course, I really can't understand the comment you made sattvapaul, so maybe instead of my pretending to know and answering it as I did above, you can explain it to me.
If God transcends time, how/why would he/she/it interact with the creation at all? If he would, that would break the principle of dependent origination.
Anyway, it's far too big a subject to delve into here and I'm not a logician. @Thao - if you want a logical exposition, read Nagarjuna, he wrote volumes on it.
Its worth noting that Dr Ring is a psychologist and not a Doctor of medicine or a scientist.
Sorry Leon, but personally I don't see what speculating about any of that has to do with the importance of paying attention to my practice in the here and now.
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It's fascinating, let alone inspiring. Not all conversation must be directly conducive to being present in the here and now. Sometimes it's fun to play with ideas and imagine the possibilities.
I don't see how you making this comment has to do with the importance of paying attention to your practice in the here and now.
And referring back to the OP of the thread, scientific proof of survival of consciousness after death has seemingly morphed into proof that survival of clear consciousness is severely threatened among the living.
I posted this on a different thread but I feel that it is even more applicable here.
To quote Eckhart Tolle: "Ego comes about through a split in the human psyche in which identity separates into two parts that we could call "I" and "me" or "me and myself." Every ego is therefpre schizonphrenic , to use the word in its popular meaning of split personality. You live with a mental image of yourself, a conceptual self that you have a relationship with. Life itself become conceputalized and separated from who you are when you speak of "my life." The moment you say or think "my life" and believe in what you are saying (rather than it just being a linguistic convention), you have entered the realm of delusion. If there is such a thing as "my life," it follows that I and life are two separate things, and so I can also lose my life, my imaginary treasured possession. Death becomes a seeming reality and a threat. Words and concepts split life into separate segments that have no reality in themselves. We could even say that the notion "my life" is the original delusion of separateness, the source of ego. If I and life are two, if I am separate from life, then I am separate from all things, all beings, all people. But how could I be separate from life? What "I" could there be aparat from life, apart from Being? It is utterly impossible. So there is no such thing as "my life," and I don't have a life. I am life. I and life are one. How can I lose something that I don't have in the first place? How can I lose something that I Am. It is impossible.
Can anyone associate the primordial fear of death as the root cause of the pursuit of scientific evidence for "survival" of consciousness after death?
I would posit that not just a bunch of members are interested in this - but every single solitary one - because no matter how whole or fearless one professes to be in their practice - the primordial fear of death is ever present -especially when one is actually dying - and "near death" just doesn't compare.
Could this association exist because the concept of death is so utterly imaginable and even impossible to that which is life itself?
Of course human beings fear death, and that is certainly a reason we are so curious about it, but I believe a strong reason why we persue the study of survival of consciousness after death is because we have always been alive.
I don't agree that fear of death is universal. Fear of death often is based in a sense of not having made the most of one's life, of not having made sufficient contribution to the world, to helping others, or of not having turned one's life around to atone for living selfishly or for criminal behavior. Those who have lived a kind, generous life often are tranquil at the end, because they feel theirs was a life well-spent.
Human diversity is vast, as are humans' approaches to death. Some people suffer so much from physical pain or ailments, that they regard death as a welcome release. They spend their last years just waiting it out. Sad, but true. Others fade away slowly surrounded by caring family members. Still others are active and content to the end, and go unexpectedly in their sleep. Some fight the process the whole way. Some may begin the process resisting, but undergo a transformation at some point, and come to peace with it. Some, I've heard, have visitations from deceased loved ones, so that they know they're going to a good place. There is no universal fear of death, IMO.
The way to deal with death is to lead a good, fulfilling life. And to meditate on death from time to time. That's a very good tool for putting your priorities in order.
Before someone might wave weapons of mass destruction to demonstrate an ability to evoke "universal fear of death" and undermine Dakini's observations, please note that "death" is not the equivalent of "illness" nor "injury" nor "pain" but a separate phenomenon from any other phenomena one might be inclined to associate with the process. Although one might associate being hit by a car with death, being hit by a car is one phenomenon. Dying is an entirely separate phenomenon from being hit by a car.
I would also like to add that there is a huge difference between being the one who is dying, and being an observer or a loved one of the one who is dying. I was happily the one who was dying... but among all those around me, they were all extremely terrified that I would die. There was also the extreme curiosity "what were you looking at? What were you seeing? Where did you go?" when I did not die. I would say that it is the onlookers who have both the horrendous fear and tremendous curiosity about dying, and that both that fear and curiosity is so intense that if you've almost died and not died, you end up having to calm and reassure all those people and answer all their questions about it. At least that was my experience.
@aura were you planning on pulling a WMD out of your pocket to make your point? I thought you agreed earlier that there was no fear of death among some of the terminally ill or dying. I took Dakini's statement about lack of universal fear of death to be in agreement with your earlier statement. If you read her whole post, it's clear the focus is on those nearing the end of life.
For clarity's sake, I'd like to suggest we keep the discussion on "near death" states and related phenomena. The question of whether there's a generalized and random fear of death that may or may not be "primordial" or universal is interesting, but it's almost a separate topic deserving of its own thread. I only suggest this to avoid misunderstandings and to try to keep it simple. These are both good topics.
Yes, I meant the presence or lack of fear when one knows death is not too far away. Was there some confusion? Why are we discussing WMD's? haha! That's funny! ^_^ Except that WMD's aren't funny, really. Thanks for the strangely comic relief.
For clarity's sake, I'd like to suggest we keep the discussion on "near death" states and related phenomena.
For clarity's sake, I was pointing out the huge difference there is between being an outside observer of someone who is in a condition and process of dying, and actually undergoing the dying process oneself.
With my NDE I experienced no fear nor shock whatsoever; I was just fine with dying; it was a release and a relief. Dying is easy...living is hard! Dying is far easier than being among the loved ones and witnesses left behind.
Those people all around me were quite terrorized and traumatized by the experience of being witnesses. From the nurse frantically waving her hands in front of my face saying "what's she staring at? I can't break her stare no matter what; she's not even blinking..." to the one asking "why isn't she screaming? she should be screaming, she hasn't even had any anesthesia!" to one physician cursing "goddammit stop hemhorraging goddammit, nobody's ever died on me before, goddammit!" and 2 other physicians arguing over my husband's right to remain there because there wasn't anything they could do anyway...the terror and emotional trauma endured by the witnesses is a significant aspect of the near death phenomenon. Perhaps if one is drugged or unconscious, one misses out on this particular aspect of the experience, but when one has had no anesthesia and is fully conscious throughout, witnessing and dealing with the emotional trauma of the witnesses is both an extremely significant and singular phenomenon of the near death experience.
If one dies, one does not particularly have to deal with the emotional trauma endured by the witnesses. With an NDE, you don't die, and as a result, dealing with all the terror, emotional trauma, and horror endured by the witnesses is a huge and unique aspect of the near death experience that differentiates the NDE from every other experience in life. One feels so sorry for them, the witnesses.
One feels great compassion for their experience as witnesses, and their questions and curiosity and interrogations and discussions and comparing of notes with one another and assembling research on the phenomenon is more than understandable. One need only talk to them to observe that it is not fear of death that drives that research, but curiosity and awe and amazement and wonder over life itself that drives that research.
Thank you @aura. I can imagine that the person who is dying can easily take on the witnesses' terror and fear as well, which is not helpful.
Although that was not my own experience with NDE, that is a very interesting thought indeed!
Based on my own experience and personal observations of living and dying, if: one's consciousness does not get very far beyond the confines of one's body... and one has extremely strong connections/karmic obligations to others living that firmly hold one's consciousness here... and one trusts those individuals as authorities over one's reality to the point that those individuals actually help one define and/or interpret one's reality... and those individuals are traumatized witnesses immediately present at hand... yes, I'd say that sort of transmission of terror/fear would be entirely possible.
Fear is a horrible and easily communicable contagion among the living, such that anyone whose consciousness and intention were entirely focused on this plane when entering the dying process would probably pick that right up, no problem. The karmic pull of the living is an extremely strong force acting upon the self in an NDE... but as it was not my own experience, I had never even considered that given those conditions, absorbing their terror and fear as well would also be entirely likely. Oh dear, poor @andyrobyn at age 15; that certainly would very well explain her own NDE experience... and it would be a good thing to add to the public advisory on NDE's.
I vaguely recall from the book by Moody I read ages ago that people tend to see what they believe in during NDEs. So someone will see Jesus, and someone else will see light, etc.
@Thao, The Buddha pointed out that the belief in a creator was wrong view, many times. But, believe what you want.
Once you have had an experience of God in meditation you cannot be talked out of it. It was the most wonderful experience of my entire life. It is a knowingness that you have of God.
Comments
Before anyone has time to get upset about my attempt at humour ( well, hopefully BEFORE anyway), I am a TB practitioner and it is good being able to laugh at ourselves, isn't it - well, for me it is good that I can now take what was a terrifying experience lightly.
Maybe some would say it was because I hadn't purified my karma yet. For me this is not the understanding which I have gained from my practice in TB and it is certainly not how I understand the teachings of the Pali canon either. I am in the here and now school too - and my practice has helped to define the things that we can not yet know - I think there is a strong possibility that science may one day be able to explain the experience, and I think it with involve the neuroscientists as well as the psychologists.
My practice and experiences with nursing and many deaths in my family and friends has helped me come to a degree of acceptance of death.
For those of us who experienced an NDE as a consequence of physical trauma, intense physical pain physically occupied every neuron of our consciousness at the time.
Far from anything to be feared, dying was an absolutely wonderful release and relief from both body and overwhelming pain. Dying was a wonderful release, a wonderful experience. Reattaching to the body and having to breathe again, on the other hand, was both difficult and painful.
In your case, however, it sounds as though you went from healthy and happy in the middle of a party, to suddenly traumatically unconsciously drugged senseless and dead on the table.
I cannot even begin to imagine what horrendous confusion, turmoil, and total disorientation such a sudden traumatic and somewhat less-than-conscious experience would cause. What happened to you was far from the conscious, willing, and expected release of life and body that generally accompanies death for those of us who are very aware that our bodies have been shattered and are bleeding to death, or which perhaps have been slowly failing us for some time. Unlike a conscious acceptance and release of life and release of the body, in your case it seems as though your life was being suddenly unwillingly wrenched away from you when you were in no condition of wishing to release the body at all.
I know one woman who likewise survived a drug-induced NDE as you did, but she did not share your traumatic experience with her NDE at age 16. From my own experience of NDE, and from listening to her own accounts, I would say that although I was a "traumatic injury" and she was an "attempted suicide" what we had in common with each other, but did not have in common with you, was the intention and willingness to release the body. She was a more than willing suicide, and I was too physically broken and in too much pain to want to go on. You, on the other hand, had apparently been fine and happy when you suddenly traumatically ended up in a position of having your body unwillingly wrenched out from under you, contrary to your will, and pulling your consciousness in two different directions at once. I can easily understand why that would result in an NDE that would be a horrific and terrifying experience... the equivalent of having one's consciousness suddenly torn in half, I would imagine.
metta
Aura
I believe as you describe well the occurences of NDE have something to say to us about the potential of the mind.
I see no reason for bashing people because they desire to talk about this subject, and if they read about it because they fear death, so what?
End of quote.
I have read a lot of near death experiences and people come back with a stronger faith in God due to experiencing God. Perhaps she meant that they know there is a God. This knowing is what I know.
There are many scientists that believe in God and for very good reason. Buddha never said that there wasn't a God, but whether he did or not, I really don't care because I do believe in God more than I would ever believe in Buddha.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html
@Thao, The Buddha pointed out that the belief in a creator was wrong view, many times. But, believe what you want.
The familiar patterns of mind, the mental formations that one's body uses to make sense of/interpret that light goes in accordance with one's customary and familiar patterns of mind.
Both the Buddha and Jesus of Nazareth spoke about the light... the Light beyond all other light...
but neither forbade people from using their own familiar terms and imagery to come up with some sort of comfortable manner of interpreting that light.
You might be interested in Antony Flew's book, There is a God. He was a notorious atheist who finally came to the conclusion that there was a Divine Being that created the universe. I don't believe he ever became a Christian, just as I never could.
This is the first time I've read on this forum that the Buddha said that belief in a creator was wrong view. When the topic of the Buddha's teaching on a supreme deity or creator has come up in the past, people have said the Buddha responded that the question wasn't relevant. So if you have other teachings to point out that we haven't heard about, paul, I'm open to checking them out, if you could reference them.
In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god (issara-nimmana-vada) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world; as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however, is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their effect on ethical conduct.
from Buddhism and the God-idea by Nyanaponika Thera
Death is a universal in this world. Because death is universal, getting extremely close to death, not passing out of life, and thereby experiencing an NDE (near death experience) is very common in the world.
Dying is a distinct phenomenon unto itself that is completely apart from any illness, accident, pain, fear, old age, trauma, or anything else that one might associate with dying.
If you or someone you know has experienced an NDE, please note that the dying process is a process of releasing the body, and that subsequent to an NDE it is therefore important to attend to reattaching and re-grounding the consciousness throughout the body. Various traditions have various different methods of physically working with the grounding of the consciousness to and through the body, but if one has no such tradition, qigong, tai chi, and yoga all have exercises consisting of simple physical movement and breathing that are designed to help ground the consciousness firmly in the body, and which are of particular benefit post-NDE.
just so everyone knows
metta
Aura
http://iands.org/about-ndes/common-aftereffects.html
Loss of the fear of death, more spiritual and less religious, easily engage in abstract thinking, more philosophical, can go through various bouts with depression, more generous and charitable than before, form expansive concepts of love while at the same time challenged to initiate and maintain satisfying relationships, "inner child" or unresolved issues from childhood tend to surface, less competitive, convinced of a life purpose, rejection of previous limitations in life and "normal" role-playing, heightened sensations of taste-touch-texture-smell, increased intuitive/psychic abilities plus the ability to know or "re-live" the future, charismatic, a child-like sense of wonder and joy, less stressed, more detached and objective, can continue to dissociate or "separate" from the body, easily absorbed ("merge into" whatever is focused on), hunger for knowledge and learning, highly curious.Near-death experiencers come to love and accept others without the usual attachments and conditions society expects. They perceive themselves as equally and fully loving of each and all, openly generous, excited about the potential and wonder of each person they see. Their desire is to be a conduit of universal love.
For those who believe in a creator/God and also acknowledge the workings of karma, the wheel of life is another lap around the track on a helix, with the helix rooted at both its origin and terminus in a creator/God transcendent of time.
For those who do not believe in a creator/God but acknowledge the workings of karma, the wheel of life is either just another lap around the track on a helix, with primordial gunk at its origin and enlightenment at its terminus, or an infinite loop of the here and now which does not ever really move at all in the stillness of infinity.
When you say there is a creator God... I have to ask... Who created the creator God? :scratch:
Anyway, it's far too big a subject to delve into here and I'm not a logician. @Thao - if you want a logical exposition, read Nagarjuna, he wrote volumes on it.
who knows if God interacts with creation except maybe in nde or transcendent experiences?
aura, i was hoping you would explain what you wrote above.
I don't see how you making this comment has to do with the importance of paying attention to your practice in the here and now.
To quote Eckhart Tolle: "Ego comes about through a split in the human psyche in which identity separates into two parts that we could call "I" and "me" or "me and myself." Every ego is therefpre schizonphrenic , to use the word in its popular meaning of split personality. You live with a mental image of yourself, a conceptual self that you have a relationship with. Life itself become conceputalized and separated from who you are when you speak of "my life." The moment you say or think "my life" and believe in what you are saying (rather than it just being a linguistic convention), you have entered the realm of delusion. If there is such a thing as "my life," it follows that I and life are two separate things, and so I can also lose my life, my imaginary treasured possession. Death becomes a seeming reality and a threat. Words and concepts split life into separate segments that have no reality in themselves. We could even say that the notion "my life" is the original delusion of separateness, the source of ego. If I and life are two, if I am separate from life, then I am separate from all things, all beings, all people. But how could I be separate from life? What "I" could there be aparat from life, apart from Being? It is utterly impossible. So there is no such thing as "my life," and I don't have a life. I am life. I and life are one. How can I lose something that I don't have in the first place? How can I lose something that I Am. It is impossible.
Of course human beings fear death, and that is certainly a reason we are so curious about it, but I believe a strong reason why we persue the study of survival of consciousness after death is because we have always been alive.
The way to deal with death is to lead a good, fulfilling life. And to meditate on death from time to time. That's a very good tool for putting your priorities in order.
please note that "death" is not the equivalent of "illness" nor "injury" nor "pain" but a separate phenomenon from any other phenomena one might be inclined to associate with the process. Although one might associate being hit by a car with death, being hit by a car is one phenomenon. Dying is an entirely separate phenomenon from being hit by a car.
I would also like to add that there is a huge difference between being the one who is dying, and being an observer or a loved one of the one who is dying.
I was happily the one who was dying...
but among all those around me, they were all extremely terrified that I would die.
There was also the extreme curiosity "what were you looking at? What were you seeing? Where did you go?" when I did not die.
I would say that it is the onlookers who have both the horrendous fear and tremendous curiosity about dying, and that both that fear and curiosity is so intense that if you've almost died and not died, you end up having to calm and reassure all those people and answer all their questions about it. At least that was my experience.
For clarity's sake, I'd like to suggest we keep the discussion on "near death" states and related phenomena. The question of whether there's a generalized and random fear of death that may or may not be "primordial" or universal is interesting, but it's almost a separate topic deserving of its own thread. I only suggest this to avoid misunderstandings and to try to keep it simple. These are both good topics.
With my NDE I experienced no fear nor shock whatsoever; I was just fine with dying; it was a release and a relief. Dying is easy...living is hard! Dying is far easier than being among the loved ones and witnesses left behind.
Those people all around me were quite terrorized and traumatized by the experience of being witnesses. From the nurse frantically waving her hands in front of my face saying "what's she staring at? I can't break her stare no matter what; she's not even blinking..." to the one asking "why isn't she screaming? she should be screaming, she hasn't even had any anesthesia!" to one physician cursing "goddammit stop hemhorraging goddammit, nobody's ever died on me before, goddammit!" and 2 other physicians arguing over my husband's right to remain there because there wasn't anything they could do anyway...the terror and emotional trauma endured by the witnesses is a significant aspect of the near death phenomenon. Perhaps if one is drugged or unconscious, one misses out on this particular aspect of the experience, but when one has had no anesthesia and is fully conscious throughout, witnessing and dealing with the emotional trauma of the witnesses is both an extremely significant and singular phenomenon of the near death experience.
If one dies, one does not particularly have to deal with the emotional trauma endured by the witnesses. With an NDE, you don't die, and as a result, dealing with all the terror, emotional trauma, and horror endured by the witnesses is a huge and unique aspect of the near death experience that differentiates the NDE from every other experience in life. One feels so sorry for them, the witnesses.
One feels great compassion for their experience as witnesses, and their questions and curiosity and interrogations and discussions and comparing of notes with one another and assembling research on the phenomenon is more than understandable. One need only talk to them to observe that it is not fear of death that drives that research, but curiosity and awe and amazement and wonder over life itself that drives that research.
I can imagine that the person who is dying can easily take on the witnesses' terror and fear as well, which is not helpful.
Based on my own experience and personal observations of living and dying, if:
one's consciousness does not get very far beyond the confines of one's body...
and one has extremely strong connections/karmic obligations to others living that firmly hold one's consciousness here...
and one trusts those individuals as authorities over one's reality to the point that those individuals actually help one define and/or interpret one's reality...
and those individuals are traumatized witnesses immediately present at hand...
yes, I'd say that sort of transmission of terror/fear would be entirely possible.
Fear is a horrible and easily communicable contagion among the living, such that anyone whose consciousness and intention were entirely focused on this plane when entering the dying process would probably pick that right up, no problem.
The karmic pull of the living is an extremely strong force acting upon the self in an NDE...
but as it was not my own experience, I had never even considered that given those conditions, absorbing their terror and fear as well would also be entirely likely. Oh dear, poor @andyrobyn at age 15; that certainly would very well explain her own NDE experience...
and it would be a good thing to add to the public advisory on NDE's.