Belief
Mingle
Veteran
I'm in a rather skeptical mood at the moment and cant help but wonder as a Buddhist what I actually believe. Buddhism I've heard is supposed to be a religion around non belief but everything is a belief really. The reason we do anything is because we believe something will happen if we do. Like following the noble truths. Desire being the cause of suffering/dissatisfaction, thats a belief is it not and through meditation I am able to achieve nirvana and be free of suffering. That is also a belief. I wonder about desire because sometimes it feels like desire is the very thing making me happy. Ive had times where I've felt I've had nothing pulling me out of bed in the morning and times why I have wondered why the hell I'm doing something when the end result seems pointless or impossible. It in fact seems like lack of desire causes suffering. Say you win the lottery and can afford to do anything you've ever wanted to do but then there is nothing left, you have done everything. I can imagine that being pretty depressing feeling like the world has left you with nothing to strive for.
Comments
I've wondered about this in the past, I have to say, and to a certain extent arrived at a similar conclusion - that lack of desire causes depression, and depression is one form of suffering.
But there is no disputing that excessive attachment and desire also causes suffering, in the first instance as envy or jealousy. So the Buddhist doctrine holds true as well.
If one can manage enough desire to motivate ones self but without craving, then perhaps there is a sweet spot there which hopefully doesn't tie you too tightly to samsara.
As usual it is more about the attachment to any one thing, including desire and expectation that causes problem. Obviously, we have to find motivation and desire in things to accomplish anything, including the desire to meditate, the desire to work so we can pay our bills, the desire to raise our kids in a good way, etc. Having desire in that way isn't a bad thing. It is the intense focus on desire making us happy and always flitting from desire to desire in an attempt to stay happy that causes the problem. And in following any belief with a focus on the outcome rather than for the sense of what it is right now. Skillful desire, if you will. Not wanton, pleasure seeking desire.
You're wrestling with the big questions, I see.
While we say "desire" because that's what the very first translators settled on, what it really boils down to is craving. There is a difference. When I'm hungry I want to eat. It's a natural desire. That's different from a craving for candy that makes you gorge yourself. People who claim enlightenment means extinguishing all desires makes me suspicious they're confusing enlightenment with numbness.
As for belief, Buddhism has always been a religion of beliefs. But Buddhism is not built on belief or require it, unlike other religions. It's a very pragmatic prescription for unhappiness.
@Mingle said, "It in fact seems like lack of desire causes suffering. Say you win the lottery and can afford to do anything you've ever wanted to do but then there is nothing left, you have done everything. I can imagine that being pretty depressing feeling like the world has left you with nothing to strive for."
I'm trying to understand you when you say the above, esp about winning the lottery and you run out of money? or ideas on how to spend the money? I know it may sound like a picayune question, but I can't even begin to imagine feeling like there's 'nothing left to strive for.' I'm thinking maybe it's more an attitude that men have, or something. I do think I understand you when you say "...seems like lack of desire causes suffering."
I can use the example of my passion for horses from when I was a little girl and used to wish on star many nights that some day I would own my own horse. Thinking back, I seemed more alive during the 3 years I owned my horse and rode every single day and others noticed this more aliveness, too. My ex told me that what he loved about me most was my zest for life - too bad that didn't last. (shrug)
It has more to do with that joie de vivre - than an actual 'striving' for anything. So, I guess you sound like one of those 'young souls' who hasn't stumbled upon his calling(s) - yet.
At the risk of repeating...
I once asked my Zen teacher what role belief and hope played in Zen practice. He said, "For the first four or five years [of practice] belief and hope are necessary." "And after that?" I asked. "After that," he said, "they are not so necessary."
For anyone who practices, belief pretty quickly reveals itself as a synonym for doubt. This is not a criticism. It's just a fact. No big deal: Belief is limited. But since the end-game (to the extent there is one) in Buddhism is an understanding that lies beyond doubt or limitation, it becomes clear that Buddhism's deliciousness does not reside in belief.
Anyone who practices uses whatever useful tool comes to hand. Belief may be one such tool. So ... go ahead and use it.
Just keep on practicing.
Yeap. It is a nice throught knowing I can be responsible for my own suffering and change it for the better but there comes a time where I look in the mirror and ask myself " am I a fool, is there any point really to me doing all this meditation?"
I have been practicing for almost two years and I cant say I'm a more confident person, my self esteem has improved alot but also so have my circumstances. So can I put it down to meditation?
What would you be doing otherwise? I do meditation because I do see vast benefits after having been doing it regularly (both alone and in a group) for about 5 years now. Sometimes I don't want to do it, or any number of other things. But when I asked myself what I'd be doing instead, the answer is always easy. Because even if my meditation, my run, my yoga, or whatever isn't the best it's every been, I still get more benefit out of it than what I would have done to fill that time otherwise, like play candycrush, read the news, or whatever.
@Mingle
Life's full spectrum extends all the way from
relating to existence, as a reflection of the self,
to
relating to existence, as a reflection of selflessness.
The Buddha's path towards suffering cessation is just a journey from the former to latter.
The only fool in the mirror, is the one who still thinks it's all about the fool in the mirror.
"Is there any point really to me doing all this meditation?" is always a valid question to ask oneself but it's answer
pretty much depends on whether one wishes for the lifelong accompaniment of that particular fool in every mirror we pass
or
would prefer to find our view of existence no longer obscured by all the space that this fool took up, front and center.
I'd say we know something will happen if we do. We may not know exactly what will happen but all causes have effect.
I simply don't have beliefs about the afterlife and the like. I know what makes the most sense to me but just because something makes sense is no reason to form a belief around it.
I do think clinging is a cause of suffering but do not think it's a belief as its been proven well enough for me to see the truth in it.
I don't do meditation to achieve enlightenment or to be free of suffering but I can see how it would be a belief.
Nobody left to help?
Did Buddha not say believe in nothing unless it agrees with your own experience and common sense? This is not a statement of belief. The Four Truths are to be explored via the Eightfold Path as a living experience. We all desire, as you say, even if it is to eat when you are hungry and drink when you are thirsty.
But to stop clinging to and craving notions and things in your life that do not bring ultimate happiness is the desired result. To win the lottery and can afford to do anything you've ever wanted is impossible if your true goal is to eliminate the suffering of all sentient beings, especially your own! This is a quest that will follow us to our graves.
Best wishes.
And to think I was doubtful of the power of meditation. I forgot about this
Be warned its a bit disturbing if you haven't seen it already.
^^^ Adding to global warming? Shameless! A precious human life wasted. Booh! Hiss! Hell realm Sangha strike again ...
The test in the Kalama Sutta is whether the a particular set teachings leads one to develop skillfull qualities, so yes, it's very pragmatic.