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Rebirth in other realms

TheJourneyTheJourney
edited October 2010 in Buddhism Basics
What do you guys think of that? Do you believe in literal rebirth in other realms?

Personally, I take the different realms in two ways. On one hand it can refer to this lifetime, as in making hell/heaven on earth. I also believe in a literal rebirth in other realms, though.

And honestly, the idea of being reborn in heaven(if I don't end the cycle in this lifetime)gives me even more motivation to act right. Not to say I didn't have it before, but I would say gives more.

Comments

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I believe in literal rebirth (jati).

    Some people claim that when the Buddha taught birth/aging/death he meant it symbolically on a moment to moment basis. But he defines his terms pretty clearly:

    What, now, is Birth? The birth of beings belonging to this or
    that order of beings, their being born, their conception and
    springing into existence, the manifestation of the Groups of
    Existence, the arising of sense activity: this is called birth.


    And what is Decay? The decay of beings belonging to this or
    that order of beings; their becoming aged, frail, grey, and
    wrinkled; the failing of their vital force, the wearing out of the
    senses: this is called decay.

    And what is Death? The departing and vanishing of beings
    out of this or that order of beings. their destruction, disappearance,
    death, the completion of their life-period,
    dissolution of the Groups of Existence, the discarding of the
    body: this is called death.
    "beings belonging to this or that order of beings" appears to me to mean humans being born as humans, dogs being born as dogs, etc. - i.e. literal birth. I am open to other interpretations though.

    Also:

    Which do you think is more: the flood of tears, which weeping
    and wailing you have shed upon this long way—
    hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths, united
    with the undesired, separated from the desired—this, or the
    waters of the four oceans?
    Long have you suffered the death of father and mother, of
    sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters. And whilst you were
    thus suffering, you have indeed shed more tears upon this
    long way than there is water in the four oceans.
    Which do you think is more: the streams of blood that,
    through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long
    way, these, or the waters of the four oceans?
    Long have you been caught as robbers, or highway men or
    adulterers; and, through your being beheaded, verily more
    blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in
    the four oceans.
    But how is this possible?

    Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered
    is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by
    ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening
    through this round of rebirths.
    And thus have you long undergone suffering, undergone torment,
    undergone misfortune, and filled the graveyards full;
    truly, long enough to be dissatisfied with all the forms of
    existence, long enough to turn away and free yourselves from
    them all.

    There are probably a lot more Sutta references in support of the theory that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, but the above is plenty for me.

    All quotes from this source: The Word of The Buddha - Venerable Nyanatiloka
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    And honestly, the idea of being reborn in heaven(if I don't end the cycle in this lifetime)gives me even more motivation to act right. Not to say I didn't have it before, but I would say gives more.

    Agreed.
  • nanadhajananadhaja Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I also believe in literal rebirth.However I also understand the notion that we perhaps see glimpses of some of the other realms in this life.If you have ever been hungry and homeless perhaps this is a glance into the preta world.If your gf/bf has ever peeled and de-seeded your grapes before feeding them to you perhaps this is a glance into the heavenly realms.Perhaps if your ex in laws lived down the road from you this is a glance into the hell realms.he he
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited October 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    I believe in literal rebirth (jati).

    Some people claim that when the Buddha taught birth/aging/death he meant it symbolically on a moment to moment basis. But he defines his terms pretty clearly:



    "beings belonging to this or that order of beings" appears to me to mean humans being born as humans, dogs being born as dogs, etc. - i.e. literal birth. I am open to other interpretations though.

    Also:




    There are probably a lot more Sutta references in support of the theory that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, but the above is plenty for me.

    All quotes from this source: The Word of The Buddha - Venerable Nyanatiloka

    One comment .. if every person on this forum, on every online forum or even every individual who identified themselves as being interested in the teachings of the various traditions within Buddhism came to an agreement on this how would it effect practice?
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    andyrobyn wrote: »
    One comment .. if every person on this forum, on every online forum or even every individual who identified themselves as being interested in the teachings of the various traditions within Buddhism came to an agreement on this how would it effect practice?

    Seeing the dangers of re-birth (e.g. getting your head cut off all those times and crying over dead loved ones again and again).

    Or seeing the pointlessness of Samsara...experiencing pleasure, pain, pleasure, pain, gain, loss, gain, loss, happiness, suffering, happiness, suffering...over and over...aeon after aeon, doing the same thing...what for?

    Both of these might inspire one to double one's efforts practicing the Noble Eightfold Path.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited October 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    What do you guys think of that? Do you believe in literal rebirth in other realms?

    Personally, I take the different realms in two ways. On one hand it can refer to this lifetime, as in making hell/heaven on earth. I also believe in a literal rebirth in other realms, though.

    And honestly, the idea of being reborn in heaven(if I don't end the cycle in this lifetime)gives me even more motivation to act right. Not to say I didn't have it before, but I would say gives more.


    I believe that 'other realms' are different mental states which we can be reborn into, sometimes several times within one day.


    As for speculation about whether there's post-mortem rebirth or no rebirth, neither are relevant to my practice in the here and now. :)



    .
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited October 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    Seeing the dangers of re-birth (e.g. getting your head cut off all those times and crying over dead loved ones again and again).

    Or seeing the pointlessness of Samsara...experiencing pleasure, pain, pleasure, pain, gain, loss, gain, loss, happiness, suffering, happiness, suffering...over and over...aeon after aeon, doing the same thing...what for?

    Both of these might inspire one to double one's efforts practicing the Noble Eightfold Path.

    Inspiration is encouraging, isn't it?
  • viewportviewport
    edited October 2010
    andyrobyn wrote: »
    One comment .. if every person on this forum, on every online forum or even every individual who identified themselves as being interested in the teachings of the various traditions within Buddhism came to an agreement on this how would it effect practice?
    A long-term view, it'll come to that. Assuming everyone believed in the literal rebirth.

    I once wept because I missed a cartoon episode on TV, thinking it will never come back. But after having seen countless cartoon episodes, stories, plots, I realized I could create any story I want. It's all fake. In the long run, nothing matters, because it's all fabricated. I wish I can see people in the same way, then I won't keep thinking of friends and family long gone.

    The other possibility... ennui? The view that we will always have time to attain Nirvana? Obviously, we would all behave well, simply to avoid incurring more suffering.

    I don't know which is better/worse. The ability to have objective compassion, or the drive to help others avoid a suffering we're personally experiencing. I've seen ex-addicts help drug abusers get off the habit, nothing short of miracle workers.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    If you look at the suffering in just one lifetime it might not be much. I personally have a pretty good life. If I didn't believe in rebirth I'd probably just want to go ahead and maximize sukha and minimize dukkha. But when you think of it in terms of this life being just one in a long long chain of lives, sometimes a happy life, sometimes an unhappy life, sometimes you're (literally) a deva, sometimes you are (literally) in hell...then seeking to just maximize sukha and minimize dukkha in this lifetime becomes less significant compared to the ultimate goal of the total cessation of dukkha. Although, perhaps both goals are achievable...

    This is how I see it anyway.
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I believe that the Buddha probably taught that the Hindu idea of an afterlife was wrong view and that attachment to this is spiritually negative. So for me he was actually "anti-rebirth" and when speaking of escaping "samsara" he mean the very idea of an afterlife.

    My views are very unorthodox in this regard.

    namaste
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Thickpaper, I don't think your view is totally unorthodox. I also don't think that Buddha was ant-rebirth. Buddha taught that form is emptiness and emptiness is form and so on. He was pretty firm on this and later on Nagarjuna made a very strong case for not accepting either the existence or non existence of form, self, time, nirvana and so on. He showed us that any concepts about these things are probably incorrect. So any teachings on re-birth should probably be seen as a means to inspire empty beings to follow the also empty Noble Eightfold Path, eventually resulting in realization of emptiness. If everything is equal in being empty the realization of that situation should remove all suffering. Of course it doesn't mean that we don't ponder what might happen in the future, these ruminations should be seen for what they are which is guesswork and wheelspinning. If I am seeing this wrong please correct my view.-P
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited October 2010
    robot wrote: »
    Thickpaper, I don't think your view is totally unorthodox.

    My experience, online and off, is that this view is very unorthodox.
    I also don't think that Buddha was ant-rebirth.

    OK
    If I am seeing this wrong please correct my view.

    I really can't do that for many reasons, the main one being: we should all be correcting our own views, not other peoples:)

    If you would like to chat more about this, then lets do it in private, as such chats in public on a buddhist forum lead nowhere but negativity for all involved:)

    namaste
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Thickpaper, please forgive me if I have posted anything that could be seen as negative. I would be the first to bail out if I thought that I was starting an argument. I must admit to feeling compelled to read them once they get started but I would lose sleep if I thought I had truly insulted someone online or not. According to some members a teacher is essential for correcting wrongly held ideas. I think that there are many people here who are qualified to teach someone of my level of realization. While I'm certainly not asking anyone to take on that role, I'm at a loss as to what the purpose of using this forum could be, if not to increase my knowledge and insight. Respectfully,-P
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited October 2010
    robot wrote: »
    Thickpaper, please forgive me if I have posted anything that could be seen as negative.

    Not even slightly:) I was referring to the subject rather than the chatters, those chats always end bad or too soon!

    Discussing rebirth and the afterlife, even in private, it's kinda spirititually seedy. But hey, you only only live once so I'm up for it sometimes, but only if its safe and between consenting adult Buddhists:p
    I think that there are many people here who are qualified to teach someone of my level of realization.

    I have learnt so much about Dharma from others on this forum but on this issue alone, I assure you, without equivocation that there is nothing anyone could teach me to convince me otherwise about rebirth. The only thing that could reasonably teach me otherwise would be a convincing experience that I had, perhaps through meditation, perhaps at my death. Nothing "taught".

    I'm at a loss as to what the purpose of using this forum could be, if not to increase my knowledge and insight.

    To teach dharma?

    The rebirth question, ultimately, this is the biggest question in any spiritual life. But it cannot be answered in this life, however certain we may feel either way.

    The Buddha doesn't claim to offer any certainty, this is why there are some questions he wont discuss, I feel. He only offers clarity. I do not know for sure if there is rebirth or not, nobody can. I am not even really sure what that means to me. But I do know, that in this life now, whether it is one of one or one of many, Dharma is the key to its benefit.

    I guess there is a big difference between talking about talking about rebirth and actually talking about rebirth:p

    namaste





    Respectfully,-P[/QUOTE]
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    The rebirth question, ultimately, this is the biggest question in any spiritual life. But it cannot be answered in this life, however certain we may feel either way.

    Only an opinion, not necessarily a fact.
    I do not know for sure if there is rebirth or not, nobody can.

    Only an opinion, not necessarily a fact.

    I admire your agnosticism, but to imply that because you don't know therefore noone can know is a bit presumptious.
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited October 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    Only an opinion, not necessarily a fact.

    As said in my original post on this, I think "probably". Of course it is just an opinion, as is everything I or you or anyone says on these matters.

    namaste
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited October 2010
    thickpaper wrote: »
    As said in my original post on this, I think "probably". Of course it is just an opinion, as is everything I or you or anyone says on these matters.

    namaste

    Okay, sorry if I misread your post.
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