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Is Ending Rebirth Virtually Impossible?
If we look at Buddhist teachings and texts (as much as I know, which is not much), we are told that "we" have undergone unfathomable numbers of rebirths. If we look at current physics, we are told there are essentially infinite multiverses, potentially infinite big bangs, potentially infinite pocket universe, dimensions and on and on. Also if one looks at the many worlds hypothesis of quantum mechanics, we are basically "splitting off" our lives with every quantum event.
My point is this. With virtually infinite numbers of rebirths, we. are. still. here! We have not yet achieved an end to rebirths! Perhaps this is absolutely, incredibly rare and that in essence we are almost 'doomed' (for lack of a better word) to infinitely more rebirths.
Thoughts?
My point is this. With virtually infinite numbers of rebirths, we. are. still. here! We have not yet achieved an end to rebirths! Perhaps this is absolutely, incredibly rare and that in essence we are almost 'doomed' (for lack of a better word) to infinitely more rebirths.
Thoughts?
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Comments
Not something I'd be particularly worried about...
Endless rebirth is something I am 100%, clingingly, attached-edly, fearfully, neurotically, unBuddhist-ly TERRIFIED of!!
I can't do this anymore!
I recommend that you read this teaching ''Anatta and rebirth" by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa :
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books7/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_Anatta_and_Rebirth.pdf
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
.
@normalname
It doesn't matter if you're going to be reborn once, twice, a billion times or not at all, if you practice the dharma your life, here and now, will improve. Guaranteed.
Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.
</pre> — Dhp 178
The Pali canon recognizes four levels of Awakening, the first of which is called stream entry. This gains its name from the fact that a person who has attained this level has entered the "stream" flowing inevitably to nibbana. He/she is guaranteed to achieve full Awakening within seven lifetimes at most, and in the interim will not be reborn in any of the lower realms.
This study guide on stream entry is divided into two parts. The first deals with the practices leading to stream entry; the second, with the experience of stream entry and its results.
The practices leading to stream entry are encapsulated in four factors:
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. — SN 55.5
maybe?
No, you're correct... but I think the fundamental premise still stands. Why have we not reached enlightenment in all these potentially infinite previous rebirths?
Could enlightenment be essentially impossible and thus ending rebirth impossible? Or so difficult as to be nearly impossible?
No, there are four factors that lead to stream entry which is the first step towards enlightenment. See above post
Thanks... I guess my point is that we're all still here! Billions of humans and hundreds of billions of sentient beings. Which represents an... "unfathomable number" of rebirths.
Why haven't we entered the stream in all this time? I guess that's what I'm getting it. It must be very, very, very difficult.
"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it."
— MN 70
The Noble Eightfold Path
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."
— SN 56.11
It may be that this is the first life in which you were born human and have the opportunity to have heard the true dhamma. It may also be that you have had this opportunity before but did not seriously undertake the gradual training and therefore you did not become a stream enterer. What has happened in past lives is unimportant because this moment is the only one we have for certain so we must undertake the gradual training with great determination otherwise this moment is wasted.
SN 56.48 PTS: S v 456
CDB ii 1872
Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2010
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"
"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html
Seriously, what if I enjoy to be a human being? Esp being a Buddhist is a great way to live.
Allow me to quote from Zhuangzi :
In the questions put by Tang to Ji we have similar statements: 'In the bare and barren north there is the dark and vast ocean - the Pool of Heaven. In it there is a fish, several thousand li in breadth, while no one knows its length. Its name is the kun. There is (also) a bird named the peng; its back is like the Tai mountain, while its wings are like clouds all round the sky. On a whirlwind it mounts upwards as on the whorls of a goat's horn for 90,000 li, till, far removed from the cloudy vapours, it bears on its back the blue sky, and then it shapes its course for the South, and proceeds to the ocean there.' A quail by the side of a marsh laughed at it, and said, 'Where is it going to? I spring up with a bound, and come down again when I have reached but a few fathoms, and then fly about among the brushwood and bushes; and this is the perfection of flying. Where is that creature going to?' This shows the difference between the small and the great.
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/inner-chapters
Sometimes I walk around New York City and think that every pigeon used to be self important New Yorker, now strutting around like a prideful pigeon.
Or that for every person in the city there's a corresponding pigeon with their exact same personality.
normalname: You *should* be terrified of the endless cycle of rebirth. If we are terrified of suffering in only one birth, like starving to death or suffering from a terrible disease like cancer, how much more so should we fear enduring that for countless births in a futile round of suffering? This is a profoundly buddhist emotion you are feeling. It is what should motivate us to act without delay.
Chrysalid: It is very much relevant how many more times we are going to have to go through the torment of cyclic existence. If we reflect on how much suffering we must have endured, the chances of achieving perfect enlightenment in this life and the opportunity wasted if we do not, it should engender tremendous enthusiastic perseverance and focus for us to do things right now. Not tomorrow, not next life. This moment.
Lostie: What happens if you fall sick now with cancer? Will you share your present optimism about this existence? The problem is not that samsara is completely without joy, it is that the joy does not last. No matter how much fun we have, we still end up suffering and going on to another life, potentially worse than what we experience now. How exhausting!
Judging from the self-important New Yorkers I know, the pigeon is a higher rebirth. :-)
Thanks it is what sprung to my mind immediately when I first saw this post but it took me a while to find it because I forgot the name.
He was registering rebirth to mean something different than his own "self/soul/me/whatever you call it" being endlessly reborn. It was almost as if the sentiment was to leave this self/soul/whatever you call it "better" (further along on the path, less ego bound, more peaceful) for the next "self" who takes on its karma.
I find this more interesting, more noble and possibly more fundamentally Buddhist than "fearing" oneself falling into the vast chasm of rebirth.
Of course, I'm a beginner so best to take with a grain of salt.
Lord Shakyamuni repeatedly referred to samsara as a house on fire. We need that urgency not saying "Well, I will put out the fire in this room here so that the next tenants have this lovely bay window to sit in." It's time to get out once and for all.