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Questions about the Great Vow on saving all beings from suffering...
Hello,
I am new here so I would like to make a newbie question about the Great Vow on saving all beings from suffering. OK for me Buddhism is all about liberation for myself. That was my vision, till I studied a little bit about Zen Buddhism and found that it is part of the Mahayana school that gives great emphasis on the previously mentioned vow.
First of all I am not feeling very comfortable about the whole vow thing, but if we vow to the Buddha within I think I have already taken various vows unconsciously on my spiritual path. So the questions are:
1) Is it necessary to save all beings to attain Buddhahood? I am asking this because I believe that each and one of us is responsible for his/ her own strive towards enlightenment.
2) After attaining enlightenment (which is the goal to liberate our selves from the circle of Samsara as I understand it and end suffering), we come back again to save others?
3) So (this might sound silly), if let’s say we manage to save all beings, what happens next, do we live in a sort of 'paradise' happily ever after.
As I said before these are newbie questions so I would ask for your kindness before starting throwing stones at me ...
I am new here so I would like to make a newbie question about the Great Vow on saving all beings from suffering. OK for me Buddhism is all about liberation for myself. That was my vision, till I studied a little bit about Zen Buddhism and found that it is part of the Mahayana school that gives great emphasis on the previously mentioned vow.
First of all I am not feeling very comfortable about the whole vow thing, but if we vow to the Buddha within I think I have already taken various vows unconsciously on my spiritual path. So the questions are:
1) Is it necessary to save all beings to attain Buddhahood? I am asking this because I believe that each and one of us is responsible for his/ her own strive towards enlightenment.
2) After attaining enlightenment (which is the goal to liberate our selves from the circle of Samsara as I understand it and end suffering), we come back again to save others?
3) So (this might sound silly), if let’s say we manage to save all beings, what happens next, do we live in a sort of 'paradise' happily ever after.
As I said before these are newbie questions so I would ask for your kindness before starting throwing stones at me ...
0
Comments
At some point, you might find that your wisdom and compassion offer no other path that makes sense. For instance, I could not leave my children behind if my house were on fire... it just wouldn't be an option, vow or none.
1. Is it necessary to save all beings to attain buddhahood? The answer can be yes or no depending on which buddhist tradition you prefer. Yes, for mahayana, and oftentimes no for others. the point being that that from a Theravada POV it is the height of arrogance to assume you can save all beings. Mahayana holds to the notion that buddhahood is physically impossible to attain without saving all others because of the oneness of all beings in this universe.
2. IS it possible after achieving enlightenment to come back and help other beings? If we take the example of the historical buddha, Siddartha Gautama, as fact then the answer is no. Once one is said to achieve enlightenment, all that is left is Parinirvana(Parinibbana). There is no returning to Samsara.
3. Here is where my opinion enters the picture. If we take the selfless ideal to its ultimate end then once all beings are able to achieve enlightenment, samsara will no longer be in it's present form. It would conceivably be called something else. At that point each "buddha" would live out his or her lifespan and then enter parinirvana.
Oh, and I won't be throwing stones at you.
Nanimo :coffee:
Lama Shenpen:
Recently I was asked about what the difference is between Mahayana and Theravada. What I say in the answer below is not a complete answer but it is at least the beginnings of a discussion on the subject.
I think it is important for this kind of issue to be talked about clearly and sensibly.
I think the most important point to consider is that in Theravada mostly people don't take the Bodhisattva vow to bring all beings to Awakening. The reason is that they regard the Bodhisattva path as a very special path that only very special beings such as the Buddha Shakyamuni before he was Enlightened could take.
Other people put themselves into a different category of being who is not able to reach such an exalted state and doesn't even try to - that is why enlightenment for most people means simply to get rid of greed, hate and delusion - it is all they can hope to do - they have no hope of ever having sufficient punya and jnana to become a fully enlightened Buddha with all the Buddha qualities.
That is what makes the Mahayana so special and extraordinary. Somehow, somewhere the tradition grew up of really believing all beings could become perfectly enlightened Buddhas with all the qualities. Such a belief arises from a deep understanding of emptiness. If the nature of reality is empty then it follows different patterns to those that seem common sense to the way ordinary beings think when bound up by deep seated assumptions about time, space, self and other and so on.
The Bodhisattva makes the vow to bring all beings to Enlightenment and will not give up until that is accomplished and the Bodhisattva has the power to do that and accomplish that because the Bodhisattva realises the deep meaning of emptiness. I discuss what this implies in some detail in the book of my doctoral thesis 'Buddha Within' that I am beginning to teach at the Hermitage this year for the first time.
Theravadins often make the point that in their tradition enlightened beings work tirelessly for the benefit of others so that the Mahayana stereotype of the Hinayana or shravaka arhat does not apply to them.
Even in Mahayana it is a mistake to think that any kind of enlightened being can be without compassion nonetheless often the shravaka arhant is spoken of as if this were the case. The point I really want to make though is that for a someone to have compassion and work tirelessly for the benefit of others is quite different from realising one has the power to bring all beings - literally all beings - to complete and perfect Buddhahood and committing oneself to doing so forever.
This is really quite unbelievable to the ordinary person - we cannot even conceive of what all beings might mean and what Buddhahood might mean - so we can just have a vague kind of aspiration and perhaps say 'may we realise what the great Bodhisattvas of the past have done'.
The real Bodhisattva vow is based on deep realisation of emptiness and this is where true faith in the Bodhisattva path arises from. If a certain tradition is not connected to this realisation it may teach compassion and express compassion but it is not the compassion for all beings and the commitment to bring them all to perfect Buddhahood - in other words it is not Bodhichitta in its fullest sense.
There is a lot one can say about this and it relates to what I was teaching in Spain last weekend about rangtong and shentong. I was very interested to see how inspiring and helpful everyone found the weekend course and how needed the perspective of shentong was for people's faith and practice. The general sense was that my weekend course on shentong had allowed students to take a leap forward based on a deeper confidence in what their own teacher was doing with them.
The way that many people in the west think of the Bodhisattva path is quite weak and so they think it's just a psychological trick to make compassion stronger in the heart and mind when they take the Bodhisattva vow. If we do this then there is not really much difference between that and Buddhist traditions like most Theravadins that do not claim to be following the Bodhisattva path. I say 'not much difference' but still one needs to investigate what 'not much' means in this context.
"I have read thoroughly the description of the course, as well as several of the responses by Lama Shenpen to the questions posed by her students.
The material I have read feels to me most valuable, and perhaps the course can provide a structured approach for a person like myself, interested in using the remaining years of my life (whatever they may be, I am well over 70) to make a purposeful transition.
Meditation is the key to enlightenment, I feel, and I seem to be in search of a support in that area.
My BIG challenge is the VOW that seems to be necessary for the course, and which seems to be inherent in the Mahayana tradition.
I do not find it in my heart possible to state a priori that I will not choose nirvana if it offers itself to me at this death portal, and sort of 'wait' for all other being to become enlightened.
Perhaps that disqualifies me from taking the course?"
Lama Shenpen:
No, that doesn't disqualify you at all! It is a very honest response and shows you have done a great deal of heart searching which means you will definitely feel at home with the whole approach that the course takes.
You don't have to come to the course with any a priori decisions. It is an open-ended exploration. It may lead you to taking the Bodhisattva vow in the end - but that is up to you. What you will discover will be the truth within you, not something that is being imposed on you by others.
I hope this answers your question to some extent - at least enough to get started on the course.
All our liturgies and prayers are directed towards gaining Enlightenment in order to bring all beings to Enlightenment - but until we have a very deep understanding of the path to Enlightenment this is little more than a wishful aspiration.
You can decide gradually whether you want to formalise that as a definite vow or not and how you want to formulate that vow. There are different ways of formulating the vow and I suspect the one you are referring to is the one that says I will not enter Enlightenment until I have delivered all beings to Enlightenment. But that is only a figure of speech. If Bodhisattvas had to wait till all beings were Enlightened there would never be any Buddhas would there?
what I understand now is that, these kind of questions can give food for many discussions, but in the end it is through study and commitment to the Buddha Nature (maybe I do incline more to the Mahayana tradition, who knows...), within me to find the answers I seek. I hope one day the path will be clear to me. Thank you all, it’s great that I’ve joined this community...:)
2) In the time of the Buddha many people would ask him what happens to some one who has attained final Nibbana after they die. He would not answer their question because he knew that such talk was unneccesary, and that they would find out later for themselves anyways. He would then proceed to tell them the four noble truths which are suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
3) The Buddha himself was actually a bodhisatta. He spent many lifetimes striving to attain nibbana before he actually did so. It is indeed a fact that his efforts have been very effective, as not only he himself attained nibbana, but also through his post-nibbana teachings many others have attained nibbana. However the sad truth is that even though many people including the Buddha have attained nibbana due to the teachings of the buddha Siddartha Gotama, not every single living being in existence will attain nibbana from his efforts. Planet earth will soon cease for whatever reason (giant inter-stellar collision, or being consumed by the dying sun), and the Buddha's teachings will be lost until the next Bodhisatta arises and attains nibbana in which ever world he is to be reborn in. That is unless human beings travel into space and colonize other planets and just so happen to bring the dhamma with them (haha
It might be worth mentioning that you should not take the boddhisatta vow lightly. If you take it, you will not be able to attain nibbana until you have completely purified your mind of all negative residual energy. This takes many, many, lifetimes, and involves a lot of pain and suffering. If you have already taken it, don't worry though, because you can renounce it. If you wish to renounce the boddhisatta vow you have to sit in front of a statue of a buddha (if you don't have one you can just imagine that your speaking to the buddha in your mind), and say the following words "Oh lord Gotama, I have in the past determined to strive on the path of the bodhisatta. I now no longer wish to maintain this striving. I hereby renounce the boddhisatta vow." Once you've said it, that's it, you don't have to say it again. So, if you want to strive in this lifetime to experience full nibbana, it is recommended that you do not take the bodhisatta vow.
Good luck.