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Whats so good about Apple products ?
zidangus
Veteran
I have been considering buying a new computer, lately and my friend recommended the iMac, and let me go on theirs to try it out. Well to be honest I was not that impressed, being a Linux user I kinda couldn't see what was so special about macs or mac OS X, especially when you look at the ridiculous price that Apple charge for the iMac (£800 +), and indeed all of their products. Anyway I have decided to get a PC for £150, with specs that match that of the iMac, and I will be using Ubuntu, in which you can do anything a Mac could do, well anything I can think of anyway, if not more, and best thing of all its FREE and open source !.
So as the title of the thread says, the question is what is so good about Apple products ? why do people pay such large amounts of money for these products, when there are clearly cheaper alternatives that do the same thing. Does anyone on the forum own Apple products ? if so why did you decide to go out and buy it ? and do you feel it was worth the money ? do you feel (as I do) that you are actually just paying through the nose for the brand and not the product itself ?
So as the title of the thread says, the question is what is so good about Apple products ? why do people pay such large amounts of money for these products, when there are clearly cheaper alternatives that do the same thing. Does anyone on the forum own Apple products ? if so why did you decide to go out and buy it ? and do you feel it was worth the money ? do you feel (as I do) that you are actually just paying through the nose for the brand and not the product itself ?
0
Comments
(I told you I was biased...)
"People don't understand hardware stats.. also you can get a PC that is $200 cheaper is significantly better specs, $400 cheaper too.
PC=Variety of specs, options, quality, prices, vendors, support
Mac=One vendor, limited options, still more expensive. Look below for more information..
Today, Macs use the same hardware as PCs. Why spend extra to get the same CPU chips, graphics cards and OS X isn't as secure as you think..
A number of PCs can also run OS X (Mac OS) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=os+… as well just that Apple makes it illegal in order to get Market share.. The reason why Mac can run native Windows is because it is using a subset of PC hardware,
If you decide to buy a Mac for running Windows, you will still have to get the same virus/spyware protection, and run into the same issues as a regular PC.
Now is a Mac worth buying for OS X?
I say: NO... for the following reasons...
ADVANTAGES WINDOWS :
Aprox 90% of the market is Windows and most PCs have windows already pre-installed.
1) Some websites require Internet Explorer, to run IE on Mac you really get ies4osx which is the Windows version of IE running really buggy and illegal if you don't have a legitimate copy of Windows.
2) Supports devices (printers and other things you hook into the computer).
3) More business software/games
4) Want the dock on OS X (Mac)? google/yahoo rocketdock, objectdoc.
5) Used by businesses.
ADVANTAGES LINUX :
1) FREE (most versions are)
2) Install software by eitjher 1) Synaptic Package Manager, 2) Add/Remove 3) Opening a .deb or .rpm file (depending on distribution)
2) Like the Mac OS X effects? go yahoo/google COMPIZ FUSION which can do any cool effect a Mac can do and many ore....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3gkX9HDf… (there is no flickering when you use it like on the video, not sure why the person has the flicker)
3) Mac OS X Doc? google/yahoo Avant Window Navigator.Cairo Dock, http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3rf5q_…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0hzi22g2…
4) It is FASTERr/MORE SECURE to surf on the internet
5) Some Windows programs work with Wnehq/Crossover (also avail on Mac, but why pay $$$)
Instructions how to download, burn and boot http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-v…
Dual Boot Instructions http://apcmag.com/how_to_dual_boot_windo…
SECURITY
Mac OS X was hacked in 2006 less than 30 minutes, and within 2 minutes in a contest in 2008 . Linux and Vista were not hacked until another day when restrictions were lowered. Vista was next, and then Linux.
Macs are standardized with Cameras, if your Mac gets hacked, the hacker can turn on your camera with more ease.
Please Note: All OS's have vulnerabilities.
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/so…
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/03/2…
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft…
VIRUSES
Mac OS X has viruses (and significantly on the rise), a friend of mine has a virused Mac. As more users use Macs, more viruses will come out for it. Especially when users think "they are safe".
http://infosecurity.us/?p=4005
http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives…
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/ar…
QUALITY/PROBLEMS
Contrary to belief, Macs are not better quality. Apple also has been changing suppliers to try to "lower the price" and thus lowering quality. Even with the lower prices, Macs still cost more, they spend a higher percent of budget trying to make it look pretty, and marketing.
Sample of problems: Overheating Macbooks, OS X- not responding to keyboard, some units with 16bit screens, etc. Apple statistics are misleading since Mac users with problem machines are more likely to go out and buy a new computer than PC users. Apple is lowering prices which means you can expect lower quality than in the past. Apple had switched the manufacturers producing parts. OS X also has problems slowing down.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-100202…
http://www.tuaw.com/2008/08/01/apples-qu…
http://www.appledefects.com/
http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/os-x-op…
Repairs are more expensive than PCs since the IMac, Mac Mini are compact units, and Apple charges a premium for their services. Some repairs can be done by another repair service but the compact design of the computer causes problems.
With an IMac, if the problem is with the monitor, the whole computer would have to be brought in.
IMac and Mac mini lack expansion.
PRICE
A similar equipped PC is much cheaper to purchase than Mac. Lets use Dell (but you can compare with another PC Brand if you like)
**(LAPTOP)
Dell Inspiron Laptop $849 dropped to $799
15" Screen
CPU: (upgrade to) 2.1GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Graphics: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
Memory: 3GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM
Hard Drive: 320GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Optical Drive: Blu-ray Disc Combo (DVD+/-RW + BD-ROM) - WRITES DVDS,CDS, READS Blue-Ray Disks
Macbook $1349 just dropped to $1224
13" Screen (SMALLER)
CPU: 2.1GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (SAME)
Graphics: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (SAME)
Memory: (upgrade to) 2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (LESS RAM)
Hard Drive (upgrade to) 250GBSerial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm (SMALLER HARD DRIVE)
Optical Drive: (DVD-ROM/CD-RW) - (Writes CDs, DVDs, cannot read Blue-Ray) (WORSE AND 1/2 SPEED)
http://www.dell.com/content/products/res…
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MB40…
**(DESKTOP)
PLEASE NOTE: I compare Apple Mac's vs Dells best deal. If you really want an all-in one the Dell all-in-one has more ram, wireless keyboard and mouse and equivalent to $400 for free making the Imac still more expensive when you matching specs. Personally I don't think the All-in-Ones are a good choice, and consider them overpriced, lack expandability and repairs both more expensive and require the entire computer.
PS: Apple knows that they need to make Macintosh look different than PC so all Macs except the Mac Pro will not have a tower option. Apple's low end lacks expandability but it makes the Mac "look different", if Mac had a tower for low-end, more people would realize the similarities between the two.
Dell: (At The Moment) Specs Below costs $809
CPU: 2.4 GHZ Dell Inspiron QUAD (4 Processor) CORE
SCREEN: 20inch Screen
MEMORY: 3GB Ram
HARD DRIVE: 500 GB hard Drive
OPTICAL DRIVE: 16x DVD/CD Read/Writer
GRAPHICS: (upgrade to ) ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO 128MB
The Mac Mini since it has no monitor, keyboard, mouse, very skimpy on options and setup and is not the best deal... The IMac is better price than the Mac Mini.
IMac ($1400)
CPU: 2.4 GHZ DUAL (2 Processor) CORE (SLOWER CPU)
SCREEN: 20inch Screen
MEMORY: (upgrade to) 2GB Ram (LESS RAM)
HARD DRIVE: (upgrade to ) 500 GB hard Drive
OPTICAL DRIVE: 8x DVD Reader/Writer (1/2 speed)
GRAPHICS: ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO 128MB
http://www.dell.com/content/products/res…
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MB32…
Equivalents to ILife
http://www.jakeludington.com/ask_jake/20…
http://www.xsellize.com/showthread.php?t…
LINUX INFO:
http://distrowatch.com/
http://polishlinux.org/
http://www.desktoplinux.com/
http://polishlinux.org/
Source(s):
http://www.ubuntu.com/
http://www.kubuntu.org/
http://www.freespire.org/
http://www.pclinuxos.com/
http://xwinman.org/gnome.php
http://xwinman.org/kde.php
http://www.linuxalt.com/
http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Switch… "
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Switch…
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPr…
another thing that was always an issue for me is that you cannot physically replace parts yourself/upgrade. my uncle said this wasn't true, but the article you cited seems to agree with my original understanding. i'm wondering if my uncle really understood what i meant by "replace parts yourself" because i meant: going to a store, buying a new hard drive or whatever, installing it yourself... not sending it out to apple so that they can charge you ten times as much for parts and labor.
all in all, i sort of understood his points until i found out that he paid more than twice what i paid. then those "freebees" didn't sound so free. i'd much rather spend half the money and get a full new set up in a few years.
also, i know you were asking about apple, but i'm going to throw this out there... whatever you do, DO NOT get an HP. if you're really curious, i will elaborate, but let's just leave it at this company makes entire faulty lines of computers and then decides that they are no longer liable to fix them. after hours and hours on the phone with them, i have a 1000 dollar paperweight after just a few years. neat.
Macs and Windows machines do *not* use the same exact hardware. That's like saying that Yugos and Mercedes Benz both use the same hardware because both contain a 4mm long Philips head screw. Yes, both use chips from Intel, but that's where the similarity ends.
It's one of those things that if you're not open minded about it, you'll never understand the attraction of the Mac platform and especially of the Mac OS. Ask 99.999% of Mac users if they would ever use another Windows machine unless forced to (as many are at work), and the answer will be a resounding NO!! Are they all wrong? Have they all been duped (in my case for over 20 years)? I don't think so. I think there's something to it.
If you're happy with Windows, then by all means, spend less money and buy a Windows machine and be happy. I'll be happy with my Macs. And I'll be happy with my Mac, pleasantly chugging away when you're beating your head against the wall because Windows crashed again, because your machine locked up again, because a software installer didn't work, because you're getting some bizarre, unintelligible error message, etc, etc.
http://blog.sudobits.com/2011/06/10/ubuntu-11-04-vs-mac-os-x/
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download
you are making the assumption that mac users have no basis to pay more money. when I was in college and I got the answer wrong I always assumed that the answer in the back of the book was wrong. But you have to ask yourself,,, what is better itunes, media player, or open source media player (if that ever gets accomplished)?
Your post is a little long. Less is more.
People who have the necessary skills and tastes for PC should have at it, I think your question was phrased why do people do x when it should have been why I don't buy a mac period and I would like to tell everyone and have a debate.
There are plenty of open source media players for both linux and windows ( e.g Kaffeine Media player classic), I don't think itunes is any better or worse than anything I have used on ubuntu, or windows. Plus the whole ipod itunes dependencies (Apple make it very hard for your ipod to use anything other than itunes) is pretty rubbish.
Anyway as you can read I am not a big Apple fan, however, the title of my thread was a legitimate title asking why people do pay a lot more for Apple's products, and from the responses from Mac owners it seems that people who buy Macs, believe that the Mac is somehow safer, faster, easier to use, more software, more stylish and more reliable than a PC, so I assume they believe the same about all Apple products. As I have shown that is not really true, in fact the only thing I would concede to an iMac, Macbook etc etc is that it looks more stylish than most PC's or Laptops. Would that make me buy one, well you can probably tell the answer is no, but having said that as I mentioned earlier a lot of people do buy these because they look good, which is fair enough, but you know the saying, never judge a book by its cover, so I think I'll stick to my ugly looking PC
Marketing and packaging are important. You have cooked for guests, correct? I know its a bad example absolute, but it makes a point. I always try to make the food attractive and present it simply etc.
the software argument is also confusing to me. i have an ipod and i abhor itunes. the rest of the programs i use on a weekly basis usually work for both mac and pc (photoshop and the like). i'm not a big fan of internet explorer, but that's why i use mozilla. i'm just wondering exactly what programs we are talking about. why do mac users always think that they are infallible? it was definitely a mac that froze and corrupted my ex's file during an exam at school. she was taking some computer class and it happened about halfway through. since the file was corrupted, she had to start over from scratch. the worst part of the story is that the prof refused to give her extra time so she was forced to do the entire thing in half the time.
and then there's my best friend's dad's mac which clearly has some sort of motherboard malfunction. it's looks pretty new, but i'm assuming it must be out of warranty because he hasn't sent it in to get fixed. my friend has experience with fixing computers but it's one of those "all in one" styles which means he really can't do it himself.
computers get glitches, it happens. parts break down. i've had my dell for eight months now and haven't had one single problem with it. no viruses, no weird error messages, nada. dell is an excellent company, i'm not surprised by it. like i mentioned before, the HP was a piece of crap, but that was an internal design flaw that has more to do with the company and a faulty nvidia chip (which oddly enough, macs with the chip had the same problem). i have an old gateway laptop from 1999 that still runs just fine lol... just out of date.
i feel like there's nasty rumors that fly around the pc vs. mac issue and people get all heated and crazy about them. mac users seem to be so terrified of viruses, but really, i can't tell you the last time i even got one, and i just have a free virus protection software. in my experience, that old blue screen of death thing hasn't really been relevant for the last several versions of windows either. but realistically, talking about windows isn't even relevant to this discussion since the OP already has stated that he has no interest in running it.
@zidangus
sorry if this is slightly OT, but i'm wondering what you like so much about ubuntu? i have no experience but i'm interested. you can PM if you want to keep this discussion on track.
I feel the same way about systems. My computer was never top of line on current games and its starting to not handle at all the graphics based games coming out. Thats ok I have some games I have played 500+ hours and so all I need to do is find one I like and its not always graphics.
But the most important thing for me is that my brother is a programmer for apple and I want to make him feel good and I get discount too. Thats great reason in my values.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#Servers.2C_mainframes_and_supercomputers).
Ubuntu has tons of free software, such as open office, Inkscape, gimp, Kaffiene, media player VLC, aMSN, and 1000+ more, all of which is one click installable ( or alternatively using a simple command in the terminal). Basically I would guess that 99% of programs available in Windows or Mac OS has a free alternative or clone in Linux or is able to be ran in wine (a Linux program that emulates Windows).
Also everything is open source, so you can see exactly what you are installing on your computer (unlike most of Windows or Mac OS software).
Ubuntu is also incredibly easy to install and use, with plug and play for most devices such as wireless, printers, external hardrives, MP3, TV tuner, etc etc. Ubuntu also is only one CD and can be installed and ran without much problem on low spec computers, and the install CD can also be used as a live cd, which allows you to try Ubuntu out before you decided to install it. It can also be ran alongside Windows easily, with a nice and easy partition manager wizard which walks you through this when you install Ubuntu ( make sure you choose the right options though as its default (first option) is install Ubuntu and wipe everything else on the hardrive !)
The link is below, try downloading it, and run the CD or USB, then choose run the liveCD (run without installing) in the option menu and that will give you an idea of what Ubuntu is like without installing it on your computer.
http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/features
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download
I LOVE having this computer: it just works. Sure there are issues every now and then, but they are never as problematic as windows (at least for me). I know my way around a windows computer, networking, etc. I have been working with computers for 26 years. I never thought I would enjoy my mac as much as I do. Before I got the mac, I read many many reviews: several of them stated that when they switched their productivity increased. I thought, I better take this with a grain of salt. I found their comments to be quite true.
Often times people get caught up on the specifications of a computer when it comes to comparing Mac and Windows (linux usually appeals to less mainstream users or just more computer savvy). What people who come from a windows perspective don't often realize is that by tightly controlling the hardware options, Apple is able to program a operating system (OS) and other software which knows exactly what to expect from the hardware. As a result it is more efficient with the same resources, which means that simply comparing specs doesn't compare the user experience.
With all that said, I think that a debate about windows vs mac vs linux is silly. Each system has advantages and disadvantages. Each user needs to determine what they want out of a computer and go with that. When people ask me what kind of computer to get (mac/windows/linux/other), I always recommend that they start by writing down a list of all the things they do on their computer (email, web browsing, graphic art, gaming, etc). Then I ask them about features they find important (cost, laptop vs desktop, durability, battery life, screen size, storage, DVD/blu-ray, etc). Next, I have them narrow down their computer choices to a number that they can actually go out and test. Finally, they need to go out and test their options. Different computers have different key sizes, key placements, screen properties, cursor inputs, ports (usb, camera card readers, etc). The best thing you can do is try a lot of the things they would need to do with their new computer. You will quickly like the placement of the keys or not. You will find the screen easy to read or not. In the end, it is all about how well you work with your computer (just like in a relationship).
There is no one size fits all when it comes to computers.
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/what-is-the-difference-between-linux-and-unix/
EDIT:
I remember when IBM was producing desk-top computers that were AWFUL! Back then in the Stone Age, you had to take a course to learn how to use the IBM's, and even then you'd end up frustrated and things would go wrong. someone sat me down at a Mac back then, gave me about 15 seconds of instruction, and I managed to produce a whole term paper on my own, without asking for help. THAT was impressive! (I'm a huge techno-phobe.) I've only now gotten a Mac of my own, I've used Dell, no complaints. A friend who is a die-hard Mac fan says the real payoff with Macs is when you get into all the music and video-producing capability, PowerPoint and much fancier stuff. Macs are really well designed for that, there's no comparison with anything else, I'm told. But if you're just doing basic internet and word-processing, sure, why not go for a $400 Dell?
Note: if you know anyone who is a University or Community College employee, student, faculty, or retired faculty, you can get any Mac 33% off the retail price, through your contact.
Does that change the discussion here any?
At the end of the day, its each to their own, whatever you can afford and feel happy using.
Again I'll stick with Linux on a big ugly cluncky PC.
-Time on mac = instant
-Time it takes pc to boot up = 3 minutes
-Time it takes pc safe mode to boot = 30 seconds
-Time mac boot up = 30 seconds
-Number of bullshit toolbars that get automatically installed on pc and then never remove for some reason even when I delete them from add or remove program = 10
-Number of unwanted toolbars on mac = 0
-Software which I had to use/purchase on pc that I did not on mac = driver detective, antivirus, c cleaner, skype (which is really annoying crashing my games), internet explorer, perhaps more.
-iChat works perfectly in multiplayer video games.
-I have never heard of using skype and I am constantly on video game forums.. I have heard of himachi for pc but people have a buttload of problems with that.
More programs necessary on pc: irfanview, unzip program..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14470253
Apple are acting like the big bully Microsoft used to be in the 90s and early 00s. :skeptic:
I am not sure about the boot times of Windows OS but I know that using Ubuntu a boot time of 22 seconds can be obtained.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_natty_boot&num=6
tough I have not timed how long it takes to boot into my Ubuntu, its is quick.
Anyway I know you have went to the trouble to calculate exactly how much money it costs for every second it takes your OS to boot, but I would guess that 99.99% of people are not really bothered about the odd second here and there and would be happy with a boot time under a minute.
What kind of customer support is given for ubuntu? Would this be a good option for a 70 year old grandfather?
http://www.ubuntu.com/support
I am not sure why a 70 years old grandfather would get less support for Ubuntu than any other operating system, tough I can say that any support that the 70 year old grandfather would get for Ubuntu would be FREE, I am not sure if that can be said for other well known commercial operating systems.
Also windows xp cuts 1.2 GB RAM off of my pc as evident in the dxdiag.
I have to say if you think windows loads as well as mac I want to know what you are smoking.
@tmottes i appreciated your comment. you had some good points, especially on the benefits of controlling hardware options.
you also reminded me of what i think is my biggest fear with a mac. it seems like every mac user i know owns a pc as well for "programs that i can't get on my mac" frequently it's work related type things, although one of the mmorpgs i play doesn't work on macs either. i'm not sure why more video games don't make an effort to release mac versions. but then again, i only play free games, and i'm sure if they were charging, they would release mac versions.
@jeffrey i've used skype while running large mmorpg video games and have never had a problem with it. never crashed or anything. maybe it doesn't run as well on a mac? i'm wondering, if you use ichat, can anyone get the software or is it only for mac users? skype is free to all so it was always the program of choice in my guilds.
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer
Indeed it can't be hardware because mac OS boots fast. Its windows which boots slow. I wouldn't doubt ubuntu is fine. Windows is the problem.
How many people worldwide use ubuntu?
this article claims it was "weak dye/packaging material" on the nvida chips:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10000910-64.html
My posts are hard to follow. I have 2 computers. A hewlett packard that I use to play some older games. This one takes a long time to boot up. The printer that went with it broke right away.
Then I have a mac my brother got me a large discount on as he is a programmer. It was my first mac and I installed windows on it on a partition. The hard drive is split half and half between two operating systems. At first I only used the windows until I realized the mac stuff was much faster and smoother and it had a cool edge to it, hard to describe. You had mentioned that the windows probably booted slower because it is a mac puter. But I was responding to that and I say its not the hardware its the operating system that determines the boot time.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-install-windows-7-on-an-imac/
Its not as straight forward as just installing windows on a mac, if you want all the drivers to work on Windows for a mac you need to use Bootcamp I believe, and then install the correct windows drivers for bootcamp.
you know, the HP thing was immensely disappointing. the icing on the top was that when i upgraded to windows 7, i found that HP refused to release an updated driver for the scanner i have through them, despite the fact that it was just a few years old. it's in PERFECT working condition, so i really didn't want to buy another one. but alas, after a long search on HP's website, and later reading up on their forums.. it turns out that HP just refused to release updates, probably expecting customers to buy a new scanner(and/or printer, in some cases). but, the story does have a good end because i found that for whatever reason, windows 7 has its own way of circumventing this. while i am still unable to run the HP software and install my scanner in that manner, i am able to access and use the scanner through windows itself. booyah.