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Eliminating desire

mynameisuntzmynameisuntz Explorer
edited September 2011 in Buddhism Basics
I understand the aim is to eliminate attachment and desire which cause suffering, but my question is how far this goes. The desire to be healthy? The desire to perform acts of good? The desire to eliminate desire itself? These are all forms of desire.

Let's take being healthy, for example: one person desires being healthy compared to another who, say, desires attaining big muscles. While one might appear more necessary (the former), it has just as much room to be a source of suffering as the latter (which might appear more superficial as a goal). Should you desire good health? Should you not desire attaining big muscles? Sorry for the bad example, but it's 3 am and I'm short on creativity! What should be the mindset regarding these examples, and whether/how they ought to be viewed and subsequently pursued (if at all)?

I'm just wondering where the idea of eliminating desire starts and ends. Should we desire health? Should we not desire health? Should people be allowed to desire growing muscles? Should they not be allowed to?

Comments

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi MyNameIsUnitz,

    The key difference, to me, between a "good"/"positive"/"wholesome"/"skilful" desire and a "bad"/"negative"/unwholesome"/"unskilful" desire is that the former leads to good kamma, the latter leads to bad kamma.

    Good kamma can support the Path to Awakening (and Awakening is synonymous with the end of craving). Therefore, some desires can potentially be used in order to overcome desire, these are "good" desires. Other desires just keep us going around and around in Samsara.

    I think this Sutta answers many of your questions pretty well:
    ...

    "'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food — not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification — but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.' Then, at a later time, he abandons food, having relied on food. 'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

    "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

    ...
    "Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun" (AN 4.159), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 3 July 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html . Retrieved on 22 September 2011

    Kind regards,

    Guy
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi MyNameIsUnitz,
    Should people be allowed to desire growing muscles? Should they not be allowed to?
    IMO - People should be allowed to do whatever they want, so long as it does not harm anyone else. However, whether or not it is wise (by which, I mean, if it leads to Awakening) to do certain things, even though such actions might not necessarily harm others, is another matter.

    Kind regards,

    Guy
  • mynameisuntzmynameisuntz Explorer
    Hi MyNameIsUnitz,
    Should people be allowed to desire growing muscles? Should they not be allowed to?
    IMO - People should be allowed to do whatever they want, so long as it does not harm anyone else. However, whether or not it is wise (by which, I mean, if it leads to Awakening) to do certain things, even though such actions might not necessarily harm others, is another matter.

    Kind regards,

    Guy
    Your first post is excellent, thank you. That excerpt from the Sutta helps a lot.

    This second post, however, I would like to elaborate on. What's the difference between someone desiring basic health (eating healthy and exercising) and someone desiring to grow muscles? Is it simply that one is necessary for clarity and right/healthy living, and the other is not? And because one is not necessary, it can be a source of suffering?
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi MyNameIsUnitz,
    This second post, however, I would like to elaborate on. What's the difference between someone desiring basic health (eating healthy and exercising) and someone desiring to grow muscles? Is it simply that one is necessary for clarity and right/healthy living, and the other is not? And because one is not necessary, it can be a source of suffering?
    The second post is just my opinion.

    IMO - If people want to have big muscles, then they have every right to pursue the goal of having big muscles. As long as the big-muscles-aspirant is aware that one day he (or she?) will get old and die, and, as long as he puts the big muscles in their proper perspective (that big muscles are impermanent and that having big muscles, as a goal, is of limited value) then go ahead and pursue big muscles, I say.

    IMO - A lot of the suffering that comes from having goals is not so much the goal in-and-of-itself, but more so from the attachment to the outcome. Ultimately, such a goal (of having big muscles) is coming from "sakkaya-ditthi" which is the view that the body and/or mind is/belongs to/contains a permanent "Self", so, in this way, it is a barrier to Awakening.

    IMO - If we want to just live a relatively happy life, relatively free from the more coarse types of suffering, then I see no reason why we cannot also pursue big muscles. However, if we want to take the Buddhist Path to it's highest potential (i.e. Ultimate Happiness/Complete Freedom From Suffering/Nibbana), then, I think, sooner or later, we will have to let go of goals such as big muscles altogether.

    Kind Regards,

    Guy
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    Taṇhāsambhūto ayaṃ, bhagini, kāyo taṇhaṃ nissāya

    This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

    Mānasambhūto ayaṃ, bhagini, kāyo mānaṃ nissāya

    This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.

    Āhārasambhūto ayaṃ, bhagini, kāyo āhāraṃ nissāya

    This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned....
    Unual sutta, spoken by Ananda

    How is food abandoned? How can a Buddha live without food? Did not Buddha die of food poisoning?

    How is Right Intention craving? How can craving serve as the basis of the path?

    How can conceit (mana - thinking one is better or worse) be the basis of the path?

    How does "this body" (kaya) come into being by craving?

    How does "this body" (kaya) come into being by conceit?

    What kind of "being" is being referred to here?

    :confused:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    I'm just wondering where the idea of eliminating desire starts and ends. Should we desire health? Should we not desire health? Should people be allowed to desire growing muscles? Should they not be allowed to?
    Buddha taught two kinds of desire:

    (1) craving (tanha) = cause of suffering

    (2) Right Intention (Samma Sankhappa) = 2nd factor of noble eightfold path

    :)

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    It takes great desire to cultivate bodhicitta. Lets not get rid of desires. Lets just choose the right ones. With wisdom and compassion we can use desire itself to help others.
  • driedleafdriedleaf Veteran
    There's healthy/unhealthy desires, normal/abnormal desires, and skillful/unskillful etc. It's the unskillful desires that leads to attachment, and deludes us from seeing what is suffering. Desire is so abundant in us that it is part of our nature. It is extremely difficult to uproot unskillful desires once it has sprouted.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    How is food abandoned? How can a Buddha live without food? Did not Buddha die of food poisoning?
    The way I understand the part about food is that we only need food to maintain the body and get rid of the feeling of hunger. As soon as you have eaten enough food, you are no longer hunger. Thus you have abandoned the need for food (temporarily, anyway).

    My understanding is: One who is in training (i.e. not an Arahant) takes food so that they can continue practicing the Dhamma without having to deal with hunger pains. One who has "laid down the burden" (i.e. an Arahant) takes food out of compassion for others, to teach and live by way of example.
    How is Right Intention craving? How can craving serve as the basis of the path?
    The way I understand this Sutta is that it is suggesting craving (for Nibbana) might lead us to practice.
    How can conceit (mana - thinking one is better or worse) be the basis of the path?
    If we think that Arahants are superior to us (and if we want to be their equals) then it might lead us to practice.
    How does "this body" (kaya) come into being by craving?

    How does "this body" (kaya) come into being by conceit?
    Rebirth, at least, this is my understanding. But I'm not going to argue with you. :)
    What kind of "being" is being referred to here?
    What specifically are you referring to? "Being" in what context?

    Metta,

    Guy
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    Guy C

    Do you know of any direct teachings by the Buddha that are the same as this teaching delivered by (the puthujjana) Ananda?

    :confused:
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi DD,
    Guy C

    Do you know of any direct teachings by the Buddha that are the same as this teaching delivered by (the puthujjana) Ananda?

    :confused:
    None come to mind.

    Wasn't Ananada a Stream-Winner when he gave this teaching?

    Metta,

    Guy
  • ddrishiddrishi
    To my knowledge, Buddha never preached elimination of desire. What all he said was that 'desires' are behind suffering. 'Desire' has reference to one's attachment or desire to have something which one knows is not good for him. Now, again, Buddha does not want you to eliminate it but follow meditation and such a conduct as would automatically make such craving or desire to go. To clarify this point, I would take the example to a person's craving for excessive alcohol consumption. There is no need to force oneself to 'eliminate' this craving although it is a root cause of that person's suffering. He should just follow meditation and good conduct (without bothering for alcohol consumtion) and this craving will go by itself gradually and effortlessly.
  • Ada_BAda_B
    There are good things to desire - desiring to be a better person, for instance, or desiring to learn more of the Dharma. We all need motivation to practice. For instance, if I didn't desire to be better at meditation, I doubt I'd do it.

    Buddhism isn't about becoming an emotionless robot. I wonder sometimes if we mistakenly thing that sometimes because of Western culture's love of 'rationalism' and our love of emotionless heroes in movies (the hero rarely shows any emotion except anger - some are so wooden, it is amazing they don't split in the rain!).

    As an aside, scientists have discovered that if a person has no desires (perhaps because of traumatic brain injury), that person becomes unable to make the slightest decision or even look after themselves. If you don't care if you are hungry, you probably won't bother to eat; if you don't care are being cold, you probably won't bother dressing.

    So rather than trying to eliminate desire, why not concentrate on desiring beneficial things instead? Like learning compassion, for yourself as much as for other people, and developing a solid practice which will help you live a better life.
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