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Spanking
zombiegirl
beating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wasteland Veteran
Just curious what the parental preferences are on this board. Had a conversation recently regarding spanking. I was raised rather anti-spanking (my mom only reserved spanking for what she deemed were "life threatening circumstances") whereas my girlfriend's family is rather pro-spanking. I didn't know such people existed, but they most certainly made it clear to me that they believed people who don't spank their children are pushovers and that children need spanking as well as the threat of it for structure.
My sister's ex was a guy who had three small boys all under the age of 9 that no longer had their mother involved in their lives. The father was, in my opinion, not the best caregiver (for many reasons) and used spanking as a tool. My sister had to adopt his disciplinary techniques and I had a conversation with her about how spanking/physical discipline effects the adult in the circumstances. She said she didn't like how the aggression made her feel and she felt like the anger that formed forced her techniques to escalate. But she felt helpless in the situation because they would mock her if she didn't physically punish them because that was all they had known. On a side note, they were extremely poorly behaved children but they had been rather damaged in life, so it wasn't hard to figure out why they acted out. She is thankfully, out of this situation now so no advice on the topic is needed, I was merely struck by the conversation of the negativity that was left in the adult as a result.
What do you guys think?
My sister's ex was a guy who had three small boys all under the age of 9 that no longer had their mother involved in their lives. The father was, in my opinion, not the best caregiver (for many reasons) and used spanking as a tool. My sister had to adopt his disciplinary techniques and I had a conversation with her about how spanking/physical discipline effects the adult in the circumstances. She said she didn't like how the aggression made her feel and she felt like the anger that formed forced her techniques to escalate. But she felt helpless in the situation because they would mock her if she didn't physically punish them because that was all they had known. On a side note, they were extremely poorly behaved children but they had been rather damaged in life, so it wasn't hard to figure out why they acted out. She is thankfully, out of this situation now so no advice on the topic is needed, I was merely struck by the conversation of the negativity that was left in the adult as a result.
What do you guys think?
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Comments
It occurs to me that she doesn't need to spank out of anger, but out of reasoned discipline. The alternative is to impose "time-outs", or take away TV privileges for the day, that sort of thing.
Those kids may need therapy more than they need spankings.
what i would like to discuss is whether or not those here (especially those with children) advocate spanking for discipline. i'm curious about what those on this board have noticed in their children as well as in themselves as a result of the practice (or even others, through observation).
I was never spanked as a kid, well once my mum tried hitting me when I was a young teenager, but that didn't hurt, and I vaugely remember my dad hitting me once, but normally his voice and body language was enough to make me think twice. When my dad left I was 7-8 years old, then afterwards my mother felt guilty so she was way too soft on me and my sister which lead me to go down a crazy drug filled path (which I told her all about along the way), and in the home me and my sister got away with too much. At school and in public situations we were both angels, my mother always got comments on how we are so polite and well behaved etc, but when we were home it was a different story. So my upbringing could have been conducted better, but there was no real spanking going on.
Todays society is a lot more politically correct thean say 30+ years ago, my dad lived in the UK when teachers even hit kids, he believes that they should still be aloud to now if I am not wrong. He once told me of a time when he would not be quiet in a lesson at his school (he went to a private school), and the teacher got into such a frenzy she literally slapped him around the face several times and ran out crying. He said he never thought of playing up again in her lesson.
Anyone who hits their children, especially when THEY are angry, need to take a good look at themselves. And what are you going to do when they're 15 years old?
Reason being:
It is as if my girlfriend has 3 kids. My girlfriend has a sister and a brother who force my girlfriend, her mom, and her grandma to constantly watch their kids.
The thing is, the kids only listen to my girlfriend. This is because she is the only one who spanks the kids if they're bad. The grandmother is outright ignored by the kids because she won't reprimand them.
I have smacked both of my kids and, whilst it's not an ideal form of discipline and doesn't exactly make you feel wonderful about yourself, it does work in certain situations - for example, when they are willfully ignoring an instruction and have had the warning of a smack first, or to prevent them from *really* getting hurt when they are very young, e.g. the slap of the hand away from the hot oven. I do, however, think that there comes a time when a kid is too old for it. My eldest is 4 and I don't smack her any more (the threat is enough these days and even that is barely needed).
There is a lot of noise being made about physical punishment of children these days, and one argument that crops up often is 'you wouldn't do it to your partner or another adult, so why would you do it to a child?' Well, to that I say: you wouldn't impose a 7pm bedtime on your other half, insist that they eat their vegetables at dinner, or regulate how much TV they watch, because these things are not appropriate in the context of that relationship or for that age and stage of life. But these are all things that a loving parent might do for their child, because that child needs to be instructed and guided in a way that an adult does not. It is not kind to treat your offspring like your friend, no matter what the hippy parenting books might have to say about it.
Having said all this, I don't believe it should be a first resort. Time-outs, verbal tellings-off and removal of privileges work 9 times out of 10. Keep the smacks for emergencies!
"If they misbehave you can spank them."
Personally I think you can straighten up a child through voice, body language and talking alone. If you do it firm enough, with enough conviction it will be proper discipline. Spanking can work, and it can be effective. But I really feel that it's more for parents who do not know how to discipline their kids with words, voice and body language.
There are other punishments of course that can also be suitable. But really its all about building structure and discipline. It's better to give your child that then to be too lenient and just let them do whatever they want.
Then again since I'm a grown man with a type A personality they may be less likely to act up after I talk to them. When I talk to a kid to make them understand something usually I'll be able to set them straight with just my voice.
Before I had kids I had a thousand and one different ideas on how to be a good parent and how to raise children in the ideal way. The reality, as I discovered after my eldest was born, is that the only way to get it 'right' is to live it, as honestly and fearlessly as possible. In other words, to do what needs to be done, even if it's unpalatable. If that means using the child's pain/fear reflex in a relatively non-harmful way, in order to prevent greater pain and strife for them later on, then that is what I believe should be done.
Naturally I don't suppose that my philosophy is the One Truth, or that smacking (or any other punishment) works for all kids all the time...I know from experience that what is effective for one family may have no effect for another. Nor would I EVER smack someone else's child, because the responsibility for that child's upbringing is not mine to take on - and besides, I can't possibly comprehend what the bigger picture is with regards to that child's history and temperament.
My greatest wish for my children is that they grow up into responsible, trustworthy, well-liked and confident individuals who integrate well into society. This means that I am extremely firm with them about things like speaking pleasantly and having respect for other people's space and property. Much as it may offend more politically correct folk to hear this, these values do in fact take precedence over their personal feelings in any given moment. For the most part, smacking is not needed. But when it is, it's used. Simple as.
It seems to be working out well so far. They seem happy overall; we have a lot of fun together; we are closely bonded and genuinely enjoy each other's company. I am also regularly complimented on their good behaviour by members of the public when we are out and about.
@ThailandTom - absolutely spot on. Praise, encouragement and recognition of good behaviour are essential. I regularly 'catch' my two being good.
I used to spank my children ('smack' as we say in UK - 'spanking' has other connotations!), but then I had a child who really did have a problem with his behaviour and all that spanking ever did was make him worse.
I was at the end of my rope with him - nothing worked, and even the so called experts we got in couldn't help. In the end, I managed to get him into a specialist school for children with autism and complex needs. A couple of years later, and my son is unrecognisable. They helped him with his communication needs, his problems with over-stimulation, his anxiety and fear about the world.
Now he is a lovely, polite, caring boy and all his anger and frustration has gone.
In the past, people were constantly telling me that what my child needed was a "good smack", as if that would cure him. But as it turned out, what he actually needed was understanding and help to express his feelings more appropriately.
I haven't spanked my children for years, but it wasn't punishment of any kind that sorted out my kids (not just my autistic son - I have two other children). In the end, it was communication that solved the problem.
Too many people assume 'discipline' equates to physically hurting your child. But actually, children behave because they want to please you, not from fear of you. As I have learned from specialist parenting classes and from the many parents I've had contact with, other the years, especially those with special needs children (autism, ADHD, Reactive Attachment Disorder etc), is that it is really about clear boundaries (communication again!), being a person of your word, mutual respect (too many parents don't respect their children as children IMHO) and leading by example. The day my son worked out that he shouldn't hit me, because I don't hit him, was a great day in this house (incidentally, my son can't understand the difference between spanking and hitting, and I'm not sure there is a difference).
I trained my dog in a similar way - plenty of reward, clear expectations, respecting what he is capable of. I don't hit my dog either and he's well trained. I'm helping a friend with her dog who has got a bit above himself (Jack Russell terrier - notorious for it). We were turning out backs on him and sticking our noses in the air the other day, until he behaved, and then we switched on the charm (and positive attention). It didn't take him long to get the hint! But all that rapping on the nose stuff, yelling and yanking his collar she's been doing has done nothing except make him aggressive.
People can justify physical punishment of children or animals all they like, but it simply isn't necessary. And if it's not necessary, I cannot see how it is justified.
I am quickly noticing a theme amongst those here who are 'anti-smacking': [emphasis mine] and... and... The theme is that you are all prescribing an overall 'right and wrong' view of how to raise ALL children. You consider that because your experience or instinct suggests that this is the case, that everyone's experience or instinct should match yours. You think that you have the Right Answer. Well...no. You don't - no more than I do. I only know what is right for ME AND MY OWN CHILDREN, the same as any other parent.
As for what I'd do when they are 15...well, if they haven't learned discipline by then, I'll have failed as a parent, quite frankly.
thanks to everyone else who replied as well. i think the replies were about what i expected. my family as a whole doesn't really support spanking as punishment, but my girlfriend's family as a whole really does. i was rather shocked by the stark contrast. i remember her aunt saying that it's idiotic to try and reason with children. there were a lot of those, "sometimes you just need to smack a child!" comments and well... the whole thing got me curious. i don't have any children of my own so when this conversation happened, my opinions were dismissed.
This thread has prompted me to make the following video:
I was on the receiving end of many a heavy spanking (loosely put) as a child,not by my parents, but by someone they paid to take care of me after school, supposedly at their discretion and with my mother's permission. Later I found out that was a lie.
While I hated and maybe feared the spankings, they did absolutely nothing towards changing my behavior. It just inspired hate in me both at my abuser (that's another story), and my mother for allowing it to happen. I had no trust or faith in adults who would do me harm, and I had no particular association of cause and effect because it was never explained to me.
No one ever tried reasoning with me, or offering positive reinforcement, and to further the problems they were having with me they involved my teacher at school which only served to humiliate me in front of my peers. Granted this was in the 70s, and things were pretty effed up and lax. Also, calling CPS was unheard of.
All they did was create an angrier kid who acted out even more, because of all the rage he had towards "authority". It took years for me to suppress the rage towards authority figures.
There is no reason whatsoever for someone to be struck by another, unless its in self-defense. None. It's not a right nor a privilege. Violence is peculiar in mankind, because many times its not used to protect or defend like in the animal kingdom. It's contrived.
Intended violence,(no matter how small or light), is very jarring to the recipient on even a cellular level...neuro-pathways, and can be re-lived over and over. PTSD comes to mind. This is solely MY observation however, I could elaborate further, but I haven't the time.
Violence begets violence,it's a messed up cycle, and there is no viable reason for it.
i'm very sorry to hear about your upbringing, but thank you for your contribution. an ex of mine once hit me a little too hard to be playful in an angry moment. it was on my leg, open hand, and not hard enough to leave marks, but i still remember being extremely upset by it. it was shocking to have someone you are so emotionally entwined with do something like that to you and the psychological effect it had on me was quite astounding. i can't really explain it. it was like betrayal. i had forgotten about it, but reading your story reminded me of this memory for some reason. i wonder if this effect is the same way that children feel from being hit. perhaps there is a common feeling no matter what the age when one is a recipient of violence.
I shared what I did because it had a profound effect on me, and you too it would seem. To this day watching,hearing about, and most especially being hit (even playfully,by accident,or say jostled in a crowd) is very triggering for me.
So if I am walking around like this others are too, and likely many are perpetuating the violence they suffered from. If I can make people think about the impact they are having in striking another, and maybe cause them to stop it, then I have contributed something. That is my intent.