God(s) In Buddhism

Muslim_Youth · April 2006

Hello,
I thought that Buddhists didn't believe in God, or to be more precise, they do not bother if God exists or not. However, I heard that Buddha said that there is the "Realm of the Gods". So does this mean that Buddhists do believe in God(s)?

Palzang · April 2006

I understand your confusion. Like most of what the Buddha taught, there are different levels of understanding to this statement. On a superficial level, the Buddha was reflecting the times he lived in when people believed in a god realm that was populated by various types of gods. They were not, however, considered to live eternally but were also subject to the wheel of death and rebirth. To be born in the god realm one had to accumulate masses of merit. Those fortunates born in such a realm enjoyed long lives where one day was equal to a thousand years in human terms, and all their needs were lavishly seen to. However, when the karma for living in that realm ran out, they experienced extreme suffering as their lives came to an end, knowing that they were going to die and that their wonderful existences were coming to an end.

On a deeper level, the teachings of the six realms of existence can be seen as a metaphor for different states of our own mind. In a sense, we cycle through the six realms of existence continually. Each of the six realms represent a particular mind state that creates an obstacle to our enlightenment. Hell beings represent hatred, hungry ghosts represent greed, animals stupidity, humans doubt, jealous gods envy, and gods pride. So you can also view them on that level.

So does a god realm really exist? First you have to ask yourself, does anything really exist?

Palzang

federica · April 2006

Thank you Palzang...... I was searching my archives to be able to present a coherent and referenced answer, but you've done far better than I could have.
Good post.

Brigid · April 2006

Ahhh! What a relief!! Thank you, Palzang!

I have a tendency to see the teaching of the six realms as concrete and it sends me into a tailspin of panic, like falling into the abyss. This is a serious and very painful panic, my own personal hell realm. An existential claustrophobia with no escape.

Your description and final question puts me right again and I can continue on in my studies and practice with a clear and calm mind.

Thank you so much.

With love,
Brigid

federica · April 2006

I was looking for the links where we'd covered this already... Brigid, where did we discuss this?

Padawan · April 2006

Palzang has more or less summed up my take on the subject. I've always thought that the Buddha was speaking allegorically, in terms that the people of that time would understand, rather like the parables of Jesus Christ. Each of the realms that were referred to were metaphorical references to our differing levels of consciousness or perception. There are very few scriptures or texts in any religious or philosophical work that deal in factual absolutes; many deal with allegory or metaphor. That's my $0.02...

Jason · April 2006

All,

There are gods, miracles do happen

Ajahn Brahmavamso

Excerpts from an inspirational discourse by Ven. Ajahn Brahmavamso (Abbot of Bodhinyana Monastry in Western Australia) at Maharagama Vajiraghnana Dharmayathanaya on Sunday 13th February 2005.

I knew an American who wanted to become a Buddhist monk. He heard that in Thailand he could get ordained.

So he went to Thailand and put up in a small hotel in Bangkok. But he did not know where to go to get the ordination. So he asked a person (a helper) working in the hotel where to go to get ordained as a Buddhist monk.

The helper of the hotel told him to go to Wat Pho temple in Bangkok (where men in Bangkok went to get temporary ordination). He told the American "go early in the morning and offer some fruits to a monk who will come for morning alms and ask for ordination. Then he will ordain you".

Accordingly the American went out early next morning to the temple with some fruit to offer to the first monk who would come. In his haste he had gone very early, at about 04.30 a.m.

The gates of the temple were locked. So he started to pace up and down near the entrance until the monks would come out from where they were meditating in the forest nearby, for their morning alms.

As he was pacing to and fro, a Thai man dressed in oriental attire came up to him and asked him in perfect English what he was about.

When he had said what he was about, the Thai man told him "I will take you inside and show you the inside of the temple". He then took a bunch of large keys from his waist and opened the iron gate. Then asking the American to follow him, he went up to the main door of the temple and opened it with a key from the bundle he had.

As he went in he switched on the lights, and the American saw a most beautiful shrine room with very bright pictures adorning the walls. He took the American to each one of the pictures and explained what each one meant.

After conducting him around the shrine room in this manner, he then switched off the lights and locked up the door. After coming out he told the American, now it is almost the time that the monks will come out for their morning alms, offer your fruit and ask to be ordained. He then went out of the temple and disappeared.

After a while the American saw a monk appearing with a begging bowl. He went up to the monk offered the fruit and asked to be ordained. The monk accepted the fruit and the American was ordained. Unfortunately for the American (who was now a monk) the Thai monks in the temple where he stayed spoke very little or no English.

After staying in the temple for a while, he one day asked leave of his teacher to go to another monk who knew better English for instructions. Then his teacher said that there was no other monk who could speak better English. He himself spoke the best English in the place.

Then the American monk remembered the Thai man whom he met before he asked for ordination. He told his teacher "There was a man I met here on the day I asked to be ordained who spoke perfect English, could I not seek his services as a translator?". The teacher was a bit surprised and asked details of this man from his pupil.

After listening to the story, he said "That is impossible! only the Sangha-Raja of Thailand has the keys to that shrine room. That is the place where the kings come for temporary ordination." So the American monk was taken to the Sangha-Raja of Thailand and asked to narrate the story once again. When he described the pictures and the stories he heard relating to the pictures inside the shrine room, the Sangha-Raja could not doubt his story. He was taken inside the shrine room to narrate the story and was asked how the Thai man had looked.

On looking around the pictures on the wall once more, the American monk saw to his surprise that the picture of the man he saw was adorning the wall. He pointed to the picture and said "that is the man".

It was the picture of King Rama I who had passed away many years ago. As such it was established that the American monk had met a God or Devatha who was formerly the King Rama I of Thailand who had also built that temple.

I have known this American monk, and I know that this story is true. Therefore it is true that there are Gods, It is true that they exist, even today. Not only in Thailand, but in Sri Lanka as well, even in Australia where I live presently.

A personal experience

I can tell you another story, a personal experience of mine in recent times. The Buddhist Society of Western Australia was getting ready for Vesak Celebrations one day.

Preparations got underway to hold open air celebrations in the night on Vesak day at a Central location in Perth. With just a few days to go we got to hear that the weather forecast was not good for Vesak day and night. It was forecasted that there would be severe storms.

As the days closed in the people who got together to organize the show were very doubtful of going ahead. Many requests came to me as president of the Buddhist Society of Perth to cancel it.

Continued faith

We had invited the Prime Minister to come as a special invitee amongst many other special guests. There were many calls asking me whether it would not be cancelled. But I continued to have faith.

Though people were surprised at my resolution, I decided to go ahead with the celebration despite the requests to cancel it from many quarters.

The day dawned with very cloudy skies. As the day advanced the conditions did not improve. It started to rain heavily and continued on to the evening. We heard over the news that the weather conditions were quite bad in surrounding areas as well.

It was worse than what the forecasts also predicted. However as night time advanced, and it was approaching to the time that we wanted to commence the celebrations the storm ceased and the sky cleared as if by magic. The full moon came out in all its splendour and illuminated the scene of the celebrations.

Vesak celebration

All those who gathered there that day had a most peaceful and serene Vesak celebration. Perfect weather prevailed until the celebrations were over and everyone went away to their homes. Thereafter the storm recommenced. And we got to know that even during the time of the celebration the storm had been raging in the surrounding areas.

I know that this miracle was aided with the help of the Devathas, who enabled us to have the Vesak Celebrations without any hindrance.

Therefore it is not a lie that Gods do exist, and they do assist the pure followers of the Dhamma.

Jason

Brigid · April 2006

federica wrote:

I was looking for the links where we'd covered this already... Brigid, where did we discuss this?

If it was the one where I had a panic attack over the Six Realms, it's here.

If it was the thread "Do Buddhists Believe in God?, it's here.

If it was the thread "Hauntings and Ghosts", which I don't think it was, but if it was, it's here.

I hope one of these was the one you were looking for.

Brigid

federica · April 2006

That's the one! Link N° 1....Sheeszh! I looked everywhere, too! or I thought I had!

"People lose things because they look where the things are not"! Thanks Brigid, well done!!

Palzang · April 2006

Jason,

I know what you're saying, but everyone perceives the world differently. In other words, we create the world we know through our perceptions. I've seen some pretty strange stuff as well that doesn't jibe with our accepted Western world view, but that doesn't mean it's more "true" than anything else. If we die and go to the hell realm, it's because we have created the hell realm that we're in. If we live in a world devoid of gods, it's because that's the world we have created for ourselves.

Palzang

buddhafoot · April 2006

Palzang wrote:

... If we live in a world devoid of gods, it's because that's the world we have created for ourselves.

Palzang

Interesting comment, Palzang.

I don't believe in a bunch of metaphysical crap or gods or whatever.

But maybe you're right. Maybe I don't have those things in "my world" because that the world I've created.

-bf

Jason · April 2006

Palzang,

That is fine. Everyone here is certainly entitled to their own views and opinions. Just realize that I did not post that talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso simply because I wanted to show you up, or disagree with your previous post. I posted it because I thought that it was important. This talk meant something to me in particular because I knew the American monk that was referenced in the story. He was one of my teachers. I cannot say that the story really happened, but I can tell you that I sincerely believe it did.

Regards,

Jason

Palzang · April 2006

Oh, I'm not at all questioning that it happened, Jason. Like I said, I've seen too much myself to doubt that such things do indeed happen. But I was just making the point that our realities do differ, and the reason is because we create our own realities. I think that's an important point to get because, for one thing, it makes us far less critical and much more accepting of those who experience different realities than we do. If the missionaries who have gone into countries to try to "save" those people who already have a functioning religion would adopt such a view, I think there would have been a lot less suffering in the world!

Palzang

Jason · April 2006

Palzang,

I understand.

I just wanted you to know that I wasn't trying to be a jerk.

Respectfully,

Jason

federica · April 2006

Palzang wrote:

If the missionaries who have gone into countries to try to "save" those people who already have a functioning religion would adopt such a view, I think there would have been a lot less suffering in the world!
Palzang

HEAR HEAR!!

This makes me absolutely fume...

Many years ago, (around 20 or so...) I was still a practising Catholic and "adopted" a little African boy called Omunyakol Uhuru (surname first....) through Christian Aid. It was lovely... For a couple of months, I received a picture, or a little short letter written in child-like hand...I was thrilled.
Then I got a letter from Christian Aid, which read....

"Please note that from now on, you will be required to address all correspondence to Benjamin Omunyakol. In accordance with our policy and Christian practise, he has been accepted into the church as a Christian member......"

I was incensed.... I wrote and asked them, what had been wrong with his original name? I received a reply telling me that it was not in keeping with their long-term view, and that in order to instil Christian values in these children, it was deemed both necessary and more convenient to give them 'proper Christian names'.

I am ashamed to say, I cancelled my subscription. But it was the only way (misguidedly, I know) I could think of at the time to register my protest.

I hope - I really really hope - that this practise is no longer the case....I really do hope that 'Christian Aid' is now a little more 'enlightened' about celebrating differences and cultural habits....

I apologise for going off-topic. It seemed relevant.

Palzang · April 2006

Good for you, Fede! Unfortunately, I don't think much has changed with the missionaries based on my experience in Mongolia. They were much more concerned with body counts than actually being interested in the people as they were.

Palzang

MrsKarmadillo · April 2006

Fede, that would have made me fume too grrrrrrrrrrr

I think (hope?!), today things have changed. Firstly, I know Christian Aid and many other such organisations no longer promote sponsorship of individual children as it's generally felt that this can waste too much of donated monies. They now ask for donations which they can distribute/spend accordingly to help finance organisations which help those individuals such as schools, health centres etc. I would hope that they don't make any spiritual demands of any of their projects, but who knows? :scratch:

Our fair trade business is involved, and indeed donates a percentage of takings to, a community school in Zambia, King World School. The school is run by a Zambia-based Christian mission. The mission is run entirely by local people, and the school is run in a delapidated rented building. At the moment we're trying to help them raise money to build a new purpose build school for the community. According to my hubby, I have an aversion to anything Christian (I don't believe him! I'm an accepting and tolerant individual! Well... really... just certain little things, yanno?!

) but this isn't something we take into consideration in supporting the school. We help these people because they are good, good people with great intentions who just want to make a difference to the local AIDS orphans and street kids, and they are making that difference. Zambia is a very Christian country anyway (they were "saved" a long time ago! :rolleyes: ) so most of the children/families are already church members.

There are children there in desperate need and to us that's all that matters..... we're not about to go attempting to "save" them again!

(The school does accept child sponsorships (or donations!) if anyone is interested btw!

)

Sas :buck:

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