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When you leave a teacher
Jerbear
Veteran
After a number of discussions with the teacher at the temple I was attending, I have decided that he isn't someone that I can work with. After asking what I thought were intelligent questions, the teacher said something that I didn't miss the point. He said "At a temple I trained at, one of the people asked so many questions that the teacher could no longer listen to him and sent him to the dharma students." If they were stupid questions, sure I could get it. But they were quetions on how to apply the teachings I was learning from "The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings" whiche he wholeheartedly recommended to me.
Well after a long period of thought and consideration, I decided this guy isn't someone that I can work with. I seem to get that Zen is much more experiential. If I'm wrong please correct me. I tend to do better with things that I can read and study. I may become Jason the Second soon. LOL! But I digress. When I'm told that I think too much for asking 3 questions in 4 months, then it's time for me to go somewhere else.
Here comes the problem. I've felt rather lost since this occurrence. I haven't been to another temple or sitting group. I've heard of a sitting group starting but the person I talked to seemed rather stressed about it. They may need to sit some more. Hehehehehehe. LIKE ME!!! I try and meditate with some success, I don't want to read or look at anything. I have tons of teaching downloaded on my IPod and have listened to a few. Some good, some okay. None I would call bad. What's a bear to do? I will most likely see if there is a Theravadan temple closeby. I need a place to go and be with others. It's just getting the motivation. I swore to never get involved with another religious organization after Christianity that it was a big risk I took. It didn't hurt as much as leaving the Christian Church though. Any input would be lovely.
Well after a long period of thought and consideration, I decided this guy isn't someone that I can work with. I seem to get that Zen is much more experiential. If I'm wrong please correct me. I tend to do better with things that I can read and study. I may become Jason the Second soon. LOL! But I digress. When I'm told that I think too much for asking 3 questions in 4 months, then it's time for me to go somewhere else.
Here comes the problem. I've felt rather lost since this occurrence. I haven't been to another temple or sitting group. I've heard of a sitting group starting but the person I talked to seemed rather stressed about it. They may need to sit some more. Hehehehehehe. LIKE ME!!! I try and meditate with some success, I don't want to read or look at anything. I have tons of teaching downloaded on my IPod and have listened to a few. Some good, some okay. None I would call bad. What's a bear to do? I will most likely see if there is a Theravadan temple closeby. I need a place to go and be with others. It's just getting the motivation. I swore to never get involved with another religious organization after Christianity that it was a big risk I took. It didn't hurt as much as leaving the Christian Church though. Any input would be lovely.
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Comments
Let me know if you'd be more comfortable visiting the MBMC with somebody who already attends. I'd be happy to go with you.
-B
Dear Jer the bear,
I am interested in what you consider to be success in meditation?
From my own perspective and the perspective of the tradition of Buddhism I follow meditation is a practise that is always valuable regardless of how much success we think we have achieved.
I think an important hindrance to overcome is our preconception regarding the 'quality' or 'value' of practise. The best analogy to draw would be in the world of sports. There are amazing sports-people in the world capable of things we believe are almost supernatural in their appearance. Yet for every shot on target or perfect 10 there have been ( and will be) a numberless amount of 'failures' in practise.
Are those 'failures' worthless?
I believe they are not - and this is my attutude to meditation practise.
On some days I sit and I am a stone... on other days I sit and the entire session is a constant struggle:werr: . I do not view either to be of less or more quality than the other. In both cases I am sitting, I am practising Zazen. If I grasp to the idea that this practise was good I will only accept this as good practise then I am not practising Zazen, I am practising grasping...
I hope this was of some help, good luck in finding a new sangha!
I would have to agree with your estimation of what success is. If I do it, it's a success.
I'm sorry you had to go through this with that teacher. I knew it was coming, though, and you made the right decision. Keep practicing on your own like so many of us do and another teacher will appear, or you'll go out to find one when the time is right. You can still do a lot of growing on your own.
With love,
Brigid
Good luck in your seach for a new sangha.
This statement might cause some upset here to people who have teachers... and "upset" is not my intent...
Some people place a lot of reliance on their teachers. The teachers become a base for their practice - sometimes more so than the actual Pratice or Path.
I can understand how you may feel lost - but your choice to follow this Path or follow Buddha's teachings isn't based upon the acceptance of a teacher for you.
I, myself, find it somewhat difficult to place so much reliance upon, what could be (in Palzang's words), just another ignorant, searching, sentient being.
Dont' give up! Don't lose heart! Buddha gave us many, many teachings to help us along the way!
-bf
Palzang
That's very interesting, Pal. I honestly can't say that I am an expert in the ways of Vajrayana - but I would still have to stick with my initial thoughts. Even you have pointed out that we are ignorant sentient beings. Can anyone truly say that "All teachers are the Path?" That all teachers can be trusted? That even teachers do not make mistakes or are incorrect? Or that given the conditions that you are experiencing and that they are experiencing - that they are the teacher for you?
I'm not putting down teachers - I'm just saying that they are human too. One shouldn't discount the teachings of Buddha and following the teachings of Buddha just because one can't find a teacher.
-bf
Please keep an open mind. Vajrayana, while it is Mahayana and similar to Zen, is absolutely connected with guru practice. It is not suitable for most...not 'safe'. So, your understanding of the role of teacher is correct within your paradigm, but at the same time incorrect for Vajrayana.
Don't worry harlan... I am. Because, honestly, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. So, it's easy for me to see both sides of the issue.
Unfortunately, I don't think that others or other traditions keep an open mind in regards to teachers. I am neither a proponent or opponent of a teacher. I think having a teacher is a wonderful thing.
I also don't see it as being impossible to follow the teachings of Buddha without a teacher - or while you are in transition looking for a a teacher. It's not like your life has come to an end, in my thinking, when you don't have a teacher.
-bf
It is also said that when you are ready for a teacher, your teacher will appear. The teacher is really nothing other than your own enlightened mind appearing in the world for you as you are too deluded and stupid to listen to your own enlightened mind. That's why you can trust an authentic teacher completely, because such a teacher is nothing other than the mind of enlightenment appearing in the world as a separate being "out there" because that's the only way we can hear the teachings.
Yes, there are people who end up with bogus teachers. There are also people who end up with authentic teachers who can't hear the truth in their words because their delusion is so deeply entrenched. But there is also a teaching in that as well. Someone who finds themselves in such a situation should understand that the reason they're in such a predicament is because of their own karma, so that in itself can be a powerful teaching. Do you see what I mean?
Thanks for bringing up this important point because it is a vital question for anyone who enters the Vajrayana Path. And I'm not discounting the teachings of the Buddha, but you really do need a "virtuous guide," as they call it, to help you determine what to abandon and what to hold onto. In fact, in Vajrayana it is considered that the teacher you have in this life is more important to you than Shakyamuni Buddha because it is this teacher who has appeared in this life to guide you to enlightenment. What could be more valuable than that?
In peace (not pieces!)...
Palzang
I thought this was a very interesting comment.
Thanks Pally.
-bf
How incredibly thoughtful of you! Are you sure that they could take two of us trying to decorate?
All,
For the time being, I plan on sitting and reading and finding out more. This experience has put me in a little tail spin. With all the other things going on right now, I have may plate full for a while. I will most likely take Brian up on his offer in a few months. Right now I'm trying to get my footing. Sunday is Father's day and not sure how I'm even going to handle that. But then I don't know how I'm going to handle tomorrow! LOL! Now if I can just get Mike to buy me that fancy meditation chair........:)! I seriously doubt that so my zafu and zabuton will have to do.
Continue to sit.
Continue to study.
Your online sangha is always here for you to take refuge in.
In a deep bow,
Leopard of snow
But that's what we do, dear!
Serially tho, we had a booth at Pride in the Pines in Flagstaff Saturday for our G/L/B/T outreach called the Variegated Jewels/Tara's Faeries. It was a great experience. We signed up over 60 people who had an interest in attending a meditation group either in Flag or Phoenix. We were overwhelmed! So we're going to start groups in both places next month. See what you're missing?
Palzang
Jerb I don't know how long you have spent with this teacher or practicing for that matter, so I will do my best with the info you have given here.
First, should a teacher give you the answer or should they point to where you might find it yourself. I once had a teacher who in the middle of a thought would say, " Do not believe what the speaker is telling you. He is not the authority, find out for yourself." He was inviting us to wake up from our slumber of listening and be present fully aware of the moment instead of lumbering along in a trance.
Second, can anyone give you the answers you're looking for?
You are the only one in your skin,and you know what feels right for you. I've had many people really get cross with me when they ask a question and all I can say is, " I don't know? My spouse especially hates this, she feels that I should always have a handy answer or be able to offer a solution.
What would you have thought/felt if his response to your question would have been, "Wash your bowl."
Perhaps, that's just what you need, a time out quiet time. Is your cup so full that nothing else can be put into it?
What is "try" anyway?
As I previously stated at post 11 on "Why is gossip so tempting" I stated, " try means that one makes an attempt that allows that failure is an option."
++Remember, What is important is not to escape, not to make an effort, just to remain with what is.
It sounds like you are in a wonderful place to look at the arisings of thought.
As a teacher once told me,
If you remain with the fact of anything, especially the fact of sorrow, and don't let thought wander or explain it away, but completely identify yourself with it, then there is tremendous energy, and out of that energy there is the flame of passion.
best of luck
In gassho
Iawa
How cold he was! How confused and pissed off I was! Who knows if he was really an indifferent teacher, or if it was 'tough love'...but I did keep looking and eventually realized that I already 'had' a teacher.
Good luck in your search.
I know this sounds quaint - and sometimes I just f*$king hate it when people say these kinds of truths to me when I'm going through some serious head stuff...
But it is adversity that allows us to truly put Buddha's teachings to use.
Keep up the good work - keep up your spirits. If it's true that a teacher will find you when you're ready - you just need to get ready
-bf
What he said...
Palzang
Palzang, I too find a trust factor in lineaqges. I feel there are more training and checks and balances for someone to become a teacher thanone who determines himself that he is ready to teach.
As some know by now, my father died a few weeks ago. Then my boss told me "Work the hours I deem necessary on this unit or you can't work here" when I brought a note from my doctor saying I could only work 2 days in a row at a time. I'm part time but she got quite ballistic.
This is what is rough. I keep getting slammed. I've really tried to get used to being disabled then all of this. HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPP! We are considering selling the house as my disability has taken a chunk of money out of our finances. We would live through it, but I sure would hate it.
Iawa,
When this teacher said "There was a person at one of the temples I trained at who asked the teacher so many questions, she told him if he did it again she would send him to a dharma student." Maybe I missed the point. I'm not sure. I'm not sure who to even ask questions anymore.
More input welcome. I'm kind of a mess these days. A quiet time out would be wonderful. That is what was supposed to happen and then on the second of 11 days, my father died. Here came life so quick.
Jer, dear friend,
You need to find yourself some space. It sounds quite urgent that you do so. You will be no good to yourself or to anyone else unless you do.
In my understanding, what you are going through now is ripening of karma. The bright side is that you're getting rid of all that crap as you work through it. Of course, that probably doesn't help much when you're in the middle of it all. Otherwise take refuge in the Three Jewels as much as you can. That's ultimately the only refuge we have.
Palzang
See what the lawyer says and go from there. But I also agree with Simon and Palzang. You need to stop and get your bearings. Your boss's cruelty is a blow, as much of an assault as a kick in the head. Start thinking about getting out of there because even if you do win you still have to work under someone who doesn't have very much human decency and that kind of work environment just isn't worth it. She's not even worth the practice at this point, except for the residue she's left you with. That level of depraved indifference to the well being of a fellow human being is not something that changes overnight and I imagine a confrontation will only make her resent you more. If I were you, I'd get out and start new somewhere else. After you fight for your rights, though. Some things can't go unprotested and she's one of them. But start looking into alternatives because you'll be happier elsewhere. Why does it always pour when it rains? Is it because we react negatively to ripening karma which perpetuates the ripening? Who knows. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get to a place where you can relax and calm your mind so you can take stock and move forward with a cool head and a warm heart.
I understand how hard it is to sell. If it comes to that you know what to do and how to benefit from the practice. Letting go can be so painful but it's also very, very useful.
With all my love,
Brigid
I can bear witness to that....
Hya folks.
I don't know why I'm saying this, but you guys have been keeping me sane here. Been feeling a bit bad that I haven't had much to offer this past 6 months. I am resigning from my position. Michael and I determined that. I did talk to a home care agency yesterday who said they definitely wanted to talk to me as I have some very specialized skills that are used in home care: ventilator patients. Some people stay at home on them and after working a long term vent unit, I can see why.
Letting go of my old status of "Norml?" hasn't been easy. And I am honestly grateful in that sense to the person who is soon to be my former boss. I did call in for the past two nights as I couldn't go in there. I am going to work until July 11 so I have medical insurance for another month. This is terribly important! Ask Brigid!
And Palzang, my dear Palzang, I must ask. When does my karma quit burning off. I've had enough crap okay? By the way, love the new handbag. It fits you to a T! LOL!
I have been through enough of my own difficulties recently to know that it's all wind-fodder.... please don't think I'm attempting in any way to either trivialise, make light of or belittle your current dose of crud.... I just feel for you, because when 'Life is Difficult ' she don't do things by half....! But I join you in your sentiments regarding the members of this forum. You'd have to go a long way to find a better, kinder and more compassionate & caring bunch of folk....
As for your question about when is enough Karma enough Karma... My man Nick was explaining our situation to someone, who sympathised with the whole thing, and lamenting the up and down nature of the whole deal... Nick said:
"Yeh, but look at it this way.... It's like a heart monitor... it's only going good when there ARE ups and downs.... it's a sign of vitality, activity and life - and when you DO hit the maximum down, the only way next, is up.... when it flat-lines - that's the time to worry - !!"
Keep beating, Jerbear....
I'm glad you're saying good-bye to your boss, Jerry. She doesn't deserve you.
Handbag?!?
Palzang
I am new to this site, but please know I totally can relate and offer you a big cyber hug.
Wow, I have had to deal with issues of not feeling I could work because of being disability (bipolar swings) and have suffered the incredibley painful stifling period of time after my dad's death. And individually, those each are all consuming. To have to deal these issues up together now - with job, money, grief at same time...you are holding up just being kind and writing here I think. I hope your homelife is supportive.
I send you my best wishes.
PS- I am finding some hope for some income in an EBay biz.
It sounds like you are in care giving profession, so maybe that kind of commerce not your bag but....
Deborah
Time for my check in. I'm going to try and make it a point until things quiet down. Been making myself meditate and it has been helpful. It's the only time that it seems I can quiet my mind some. And then recognizing the stream of thoughts that pop up and what they are is a good barometer of things.
Thanks for all the responses. It does help a great deal. I may be overwhelmed right now but I'm not down or out. Just trying to figure out what I need to do next. I know tomorrow I am having a test where they are going to take a camera and put it in my stomach. I think the shot of Versed will help calm me down. LOL! I might go to sleep.
Palzang,
You know, the pink sparkly bag that is bugle beaded. I know you are private but you look too cute with it!
Hope your tests turn out OK. Are you going to post the shots from the exam here? Give us a break from all the domestic shots...
Palzang
Well, it was just a touch of gastritis gang (inflammation of the lining of the stomach). And the kidney doctor said everything looked okay on her end also. So some good news which I needed.
Today was okay. I celebrated 17 years sobriety today so that is always something to be grateful for!
Well done on all fronts....
Keep coming in and "touching Base", and keep us updated on you and how things go, ok?
I am starting to feel something about my dad's death. It just sucks that we didn't get to have a relationship. I think I mourned losing him many years ago and that's why I'm not thinking about it much. After years of abuse then subsequent therapy, I realized that a "father/son" relationship wasn't possible. That last vestige of hope however little it was died 06/06/06. My sister and I think he died that day for a reason. Check out the numbers.
So thanks for the support the last week. I'm sure I'll need more. Oh, I didn't have to take any extra pain meds yesterday!!! YEA!!!!!!!!!!
I am truly sorry for the anguish and void this situation has left in you.... take solace my friend, that if you were to write down the names of those who love you, and care for you, against the names of those who ultimately become insignificant through their negative feelings for you - the good far outweigh the bad.
I never cease to be Gobsmacked at how many people I know feel loving towards me.... many of them on this forum. If I could demonstrate just how much love I have received from those both near and far, you would be bowled over. As am I, constantly.
Focus on this. It has certainly kept me sane over the last few months.
Palzang
I came to see that as a continuation of my anceastry my choice here and now is to transform the pain that I inherited in this life, or continue to pas them on.
In gassho
Steve
Touching the Earth, I let go of my idea that I am this body and my life span is limited.
I see that this body, made up of the four elements, is not really me and I am not limited by this body. I am part of a stream of life of spiritual and blood ancestors that for thousands of years has been flowing into the present and flows on for thousands of years into the future. I am one with my ancestors. I am one with all people and all species, whether they are peaceful and fearless, or suffering and afraid. At this very moment, I am present everywhere on this planet. I am also present in the past and in the future. The disintegration of this body does not touch me, just as when the plum blossom falls it does not mean the end of the plum tree. I see myself as a wave on the surface of the ocean. My nature is the ocean water. I see myself in all the other waves and see all the other waves in me. The appearance and disappearance of the form of the wave does not affect the ocean. My Dharma body and wisdom life are not subject to birth and death. I see the presence of myself before my body manifested and after my body has disintegrated. Even in this moment, I see how I exist elsewhere than in this body. Seventy or eighty years is not my life span. My life span, like the life span of a leaf or of a Buddha, is limitless. I have gone beyond the idea that I am a body that is separated in space and time from all other forms of life.
Thich Nhat Hanh, The Three Earth-Touchings, Plum Village Chanting and Recitation Book
Thanks for that bit of input. At first it confused me with everything else that was going on. Letting the karmic waves ending with me is a good way to look at it. That part of me that doesn't want "dad to win" can grab on to it. Showing compassion and kindness to others is something he wasn't capable of. I am and grateful that it wasn't killed in me.