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liberation and reincarnation
i have been reading about the three bardos.
i assume this is not only for the after death state, but also all of the living.
if one attains liberation at the moment of death, they become free from the wheel of rebirth? is this for eternity, or does one have to hope that they come back as a being in the right environment once again?
what is the deal with reincarnation, im not sure i understand it properly.
for example, when buddha died, someone who could obtain liberation (by choice), where did he go? back into the human 'consciousness', or into the universe?
i assume this is not only for the after death state, but also all of the living.
if one attains liberation at the moment of death, they become free from the wheel of rebirth? is this for eternity, or does one have to hope that they come back as a being in the right environment once again?
what is the deal with reincarnation, im not sure i understand it properly.
for example, when buddha died, someone who could obtain liberation (by choice), where did he go? back into the human 'consciousness', or into the universe?
0
Comments
Reincarnation is different to re-birth.
Only Tibetan Buddhism, of all the schools, ascribes to a reincarnated being. It is taken as read, in Tibetan Buddhism that a Realised Lama may direct his own re-birth into a specific entity, who is then sought by other Lamas and people of high standing within that Tradition, and several scrupulous tests are made to verify that they have indeed located the chosen Tulku (reincarnated Lama). HH the Dalai lama was located when he was 4.....
A person of an un-realised state enters a bardo (time-phase) of usually 49 days, between their death and re-birth. This can vary according to their Karma..it could be more, it could be less, depending on the state of their accumulated Positive Karma, against the level of accrued Negative Karma.
The Buddha would have been reincarnated and existed as a Bodhisattva had others extended the request or invitation to do so. He even dropped Ananda the hint, but he never took it up.
Therefore, at his passing, he 'entered' Parinirvana, and permanently ceased to exist as the Carnal buddha.
An enlightened being, in Mahayana Tradition, is known as a Bodhisattva, and they can choose to return to a new Life, in order to help all beings realise enlightenment.
In Theravada, such a being is an Arahant.
There is no concept of reincarnation in Theravada.
There is no Bardo, or waiting period for re-birth from one conscious sentient being to the next.
Terminology:
Mahayana (Sanskrit) - Karma.
Theravada (Pali) - Kamma
M. (S) Dharma
T. (P) Dhamma
M. (S) Nirvana
T. (P) Nibbana
M. (S) Sutra
T. (P) Sutta
Hope this helps.
The whole issue of rebirth is a difficult one for Westerners to swallow, especially when they're just starting out. That's very understandable because it's not something we're taught here in the West. It sounds very foreign to us. So don't worry if you don't "get" it at first.
I've never heard of three bardos. Usually they are broken down as either four or six bardos, depending on what you're counting. They are the bardo of the intermediate state (i.e., the bardo of death), the bardo of becoming, the bardo of life, and the bardo of dissolution or the death process. Sometimes the bardos of meditation and dreams. Depends on who's talking.
Bardo means becoming or transitioning. Basically we're always in a bardo state because that's the nature of samsara. Of course the bardo you hear about the most is the one you enter after death. That gets all the press, you might say, the Tibetan Book of the Dead and all that.
The Buddha taught that we have all lived countless lives since time out of mind. Most of those lives were not as human beings either. They might have been as animals (and how many kinds of animals are there?), hell beings, hungry ghosts, gods, jealous gods... Taking rebirth as a human is actually exceedingly rare.
So how does one take rebirth, and even more important, what is it that is reborn? That's a sticky question. Words fail when you're talking about it. The Buddha taught anatman, or the absence of any concrete, unchanging soul or essence. So it's not a transmigration of souls. Rather the karma (the law of cause and effect) that we create during our many lives is what drives rebirth. When we die, we are, as is said, driven by the winds of karma to our next rebirth. It's basically a crap shoot what comes up though as we all have all sorts of karma. It's whatever happens to ripen this time around that will determine our next rebirth. The Tibetans speak of a consciousness that passes from life to life, but this is not a solid thing like a soul. It is changeable and impermanent just like everything else in samsara. As my teacher put it, basically what causes rebirth is the habit of taking rebirth. Which probably sounds confusing. It is confusing because it's a whole different way of thinking about our existence.
Actually the period immediately following death is the best time to attain instantaneous enlightenment because we come face-to-face with our true nature, undisguised by mental states and personality and all that. Unfortunately most people faint dead away at the moment of death, so they miss the opportunity completely. Only someone who is prepared to face death has the opportunity to remain conscious during this important time. For everyone else, our experience of this bardo kind of is influenced by what we have been told to expect after death. In other words, Christians might experience angels and devils. Tibetan Buddhists might experience wrathful and peaceful deities manifesting. It's all really the same experience, just filtered through our conditioned minds. As one approaches a new life, one enters the bardo of becoming where one is attracted to a new life form, again, depending on one's karma.
As for how an enlightened being meets death, an enlightened being by definition is free from the wheel of death and rebirth, but can choose to stay in the world to help other beings attain enlightenment.
Well, that's a quick description that may give you some idea. Like I said, it's a complex subject.
Palzang
However, I am somewhat heartened by the fact that he didn't actually contradict or correct anything I said....!!:D
Thanks Pally...
Palzang
This is the interpretation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead I have read. http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/psychedelic_experience/psychedelic_experience.shtml
There is the;
First Bardo: The Period of Ego-loss or Non-game Ecstasy (Chikhai Bardo)
Second Bardo: The Period of Hallucinations (Chonyid Bardo)
Third Bardo: the Period of Re-entry (Sidpa Bardo)
I have done what buddhism advocates and have been forming views based on my own understandings. Buddhism has answered alot of questions about my experiences, so this is how my understanding has been shaped.
Through meditation, consciousness expansion is possible. When consciousness expansion takes place, the many endless forms of ego can hinder the process, this results in visionary states. My interpretation of these 'animals' or primitive incarnations, as well as the level of the devas, asuras, or pretas, were the visions experienced is such visionary states.
Are they not all forms of consciousness in the wheel of rebirth?
Could not the word 'karma', be interpreted as the suffering caused by the many levels of game existance? For if we could attain liberation, complete ego loss, karma or suffering would cease, would it not? Am I right in saying that liberation, enlightenment, complete ego loss, is a state where one is not effected by karma?
Is it just coincedence that a psychedelic experience plays out almost identically to the tibetan after death state? Which is why I feel, the bardo of becoming, the choices between life forms, are all just millions of different states of mind formed by the ego, or karma. All levels of existence exist within the Buddha. The Buddha within being complete ego loss.
Ok so enlightened beings can basically choose what they come back us... correct? If they didn't want to come back in the world, where would they go? In a state of complete ego loss or enlightenment, one feels as if connected to the whole universe, ecstatic and blissfully aware of it's intricacies. Can we become apart of this universal consciousness eternally?
You ask if other life forms aren't just forms of consciousness. When you take rebirth as a cockroach, ask the question again.
Psychedelic experience is not the same as the bardo experience described in Tibetan Buddhism. Psychedelic experience is a slowing of the uptake of neurotransmitters in the brain, giving one the delusion of an altered state. It's just an illusion. Looking for answers in drugs is going to produce a lot of suffering but not any answers, I'm afraid.
As for enlightened beings choosing to take rebirth, or if they don't, where do they go? That's actually not a valid question as enlightened "beings" are no longer operating under the same rules as us ordinary samsaric beings. There is literally no one to be reborn. It's not like Joe Blow has gotten enlightened and is now free to just bop around the universe. It's not like that at all. Enlightened beings take birth only when there are students who call them, and their whole life is dedicated to being a mirror of the students' minds to help them attain liberation.
Palzang
LOL. I like that. Well said Palzang.
And how much have you read of his work? What do you know of his motives?
Please do tell me how you come to such a conclusion. I am happy to be proved wrong, but i'm not going to simply believe what you tell me.
Once again I ask how you make these conclusions? As far as I know, it is not proven what psychedelics do to the brain, it is only theorized that; LSD acts as serotonin, or binds to the serotonin receptors of your brain.
This is not the sort of answer I would expect to find on a buddhists forum, especially from what seems to be a respected member. In my opinion that is a very ignorant statement, but please, do prove me wrong, this is not a subject I take lightly.
My take on buddhism so far has not been one of mysticism, but of fact based on experience. Is it not advocated in buddhism that the texts should be read and then contemplated, and understanding will come with one's own experience? Have you personally experienced these beliefs to come to these conclusions? For as far as I know that is how the Buddha came to his.
Could you provide your evidence to these claims? I would prefer to hear what came from Buddha's mouth, before I hear an interpretation. Or do you have a few links that may explain this stuff better? Like I said, I would prefer teachings (directly) from Buddha or 'enlightened beings', over someone's interpretation.
Palzang is merely referring to one of the different Realms we pass into upon dying. I think that's a pretty standard conclusion. I also think that maybe he was trying to be a little humorous. Try to lighten up, we're not anally-serious on here. Life is too precious to get too heavy. Especially before tea.....
I think the Fifth Precept sums it up. If that's not good enough for you, take it up with the Buddha.....
we can only experience the experiences we experience. But we - like you - can study the Buddhist texts and come to an underatnding based on our own experience. This does not make mine better or worse than anybody else's. But it makes it different, and it is from this point that we speak.
Do you think we would lie about, or embelish such experiences?
I'm sure that both could be taken in equal measure.
If you want sutra references and verbatim quotations, the best place to have these laid out for you, is 'another' forum.
We're not insistent on such rigid declaration here.
If Palzang speaks of something, we've got enough experience of him, and acquaintance with him to know that actually, he's pretty much on the button.
If you're not happy with that, I'm sorry.
(Although if I know palzang, he could probably russle something up for you in very little time and with even less effort.....
But I'm asking you nicely to just chill a bit and not be so prickly.
OK?
As for the action of LSD in the brain, here's a quote from Wikipedia:
LSD affects a large number of the G protein coupled receptors, including all dopamine receptor subtypes, all adrenoreceptor subtypes as well as many others. LSD binds to most serotonin receptor subtypes except for 5-HT<sub>3</sub> and 5-HT<sub>4</sub>. However, most of these receptors are affected at too low affinity to be activated by the brain concentration of approximate 10–20 nM.<sup id="cite_ref-nichols_21-0" class="reference"></sup> Recreational doses of LSD can affect 5-HT<sub>1A</sub>, 5-HT<sub>2A</sub>, 5-HT<sub>2C</sub>, 5-HT<sub>5A</sub>, 5-HT<sub>5B</sub>, and 5-HT<sub>6</sub> receptors. The psychotropic effects of LSD are attributed to its strong partial agonist effects at 5-HT<sub>2A</sub> receptors as specific 5-HT<sub>2A</sub> agonist drugs are psychotropics and largely 5-HT<sub>2A</sub>antagonists block the psychotropic activity of LSD.<sup id="cite_ref-nichols_21-1" class="reference"></sup> Exactly how this produces the drug's effects is unknown, but it is thought that it works by increasing glutamate release and hence excitation in the cerebral cortex, specifically in layers IV and V. In the later stages, LSD might act through DARPP-32-related pathways that are likely the same for multiple drugs including cocaine, methamphetamine, nicotine, caffeine, PCP, ethanol and morphine specific
While the specific activity of LSD (and other psychedelics) is not completely clear, it is known to affect neurotransmitter activity in the brain, and neurotransmitter activity is directly related to perception. So LSD is affecting perception. That's why you get strong colors and time distortion, those sorts of things, because our perception has been altered. What we are perceiving hasn't changed a whit, just our perception of it. By the way, I have an MS in cell biology from the University of Chicago, so I do know a little bit about the subject, and I've also taken LSD (long, long ago), so I am familiar with its effects. To me, it was never anything more than an entertaining diversion.
So please feel free to do what you will. However, Buddhism is Buddhism and Timothy Leary is Timothy Leary. Please don't confuse them.
Palzang
yes i understand this. this is why i came to this forum, so i could hear others understandings to help further my own. no i do not think you are lying, but i would like to know what sort of experiences lead people to believe that your karma determines whether you come back as an animal or not. as far as i knew, nobody could know that for sure.
and to palzang, yes psychedelics do alter our perception. but so does just about everything in this world, its just most are not aware of it. thankyou for providing the factual evidence on psychedelics and the brain, i was not aware of it.
ok i will share with you some of my experiences and understandings. i say 'please prove me wrong', only in hopes of developing my understandings, or even yours. now what i say comes from my own experiences and i cannot be sure i understand it all correctly, or if i am 'right' but this is why i came here. so please dont think i am arrogant and cocksure, i enjoy my veiws being challenged.
anyway. if you reply to any part of my post please be it from here on, for now i write the most important part (to me) of my post.
as i understand it we are all the same person, we each have the mindstate of buddha inside of us, but our ego takes on many different forms which is why humans are so vast in personality; the wheel of rebirth. through buddhism/meditation, or whatever, we can learn to eliminate our ego and move closer to enlightenment. now i assume things like nuerosis, psychosis, greed, hatred are sort of the 'mindstates' which are most ruled by the ego. but we can learn to eliminate the ego and move up to a higher mindstate, closer to enlightenment. obviously we can fall back down to lower mindstates, we all constantly fluctuate, this is the wheel of rebirth? with enough practice and dedication we can achieve the highest mindstate, enlightenment, or liberation or whatever. and from what i know, this is the focus of buddhism, to attain this state, and then learning to make it your permanent conscioussness. i think this state. enlightenment/liberation, is simply complete loss of the ego.
when we take psychedelics they take away our ego by force, unlike meditation where we can learn to willingly remove it. this may sound like quite a statement to make, but in my opinion is is justified. first of all when monks hallucinate through meditation, they are told they are doing the wrong thing, i have assumed this is because when the ego is imposed on consciousness expansion, hallucinations occur. this has rung very true in the psychedelic state, once i was educated on the many forms of the ego, and educated with some of timothy learys knowledge, i found that there are certain characteristics which will come forth in the psychedelic state (hallucinations and such), which depend upon the ego, or how the person thinks while they are on the drug (their karma?). when one is aware of these thought processes and has some sort of control over their ego, or the way they think, with practice, the psychedelic state can thus be controlled and the characteristics of each 'mindstate' can be examined or experienced, as if one was reading from a book.
there is a state on psychedelics which i have personally experienced a number of times, and i have talked to many also who have experienced this state. i believe it is a state of complete ego loss. in this state, no hallucinations occur, no matter what dosage you have taken. i will try to describe how i felt in this state. it felt as though i became everything around me, i was not percieving from my own mind anymore, but from the perception of the entire universe, it felt as though i was the universe, it felt as if i had joined onto or had become the consciousness of 'god'.
with practice one can learn to control or willingly attain this state whilst on psychedelics, the higher the dose, the 'easier' it becomes. and with practice and knowledge i myself have personally learnt to attain this state more frequently and even to prolong it. with time and practice i am sure i will be able to attain this state with even more frequency and duration, until i can spend a good portion of the psychedelic experience in this state. once i have learnt to do this, it would be more easily achieved on a lower dose of psychedelics, and with practice i could learnt to maintain it again on a lower dose and eventually ween myself off until i can attain this state sober. as leary would put it, i have experienced what academic monks only think about.
this is not the only thing psychedelics offer, there is an extremely vast range of benefits or profound teachings which only need a basic map or knowledge to be interprted correctly.
in religion people read texts written by wise people, and then dedicate their time in order to become like these people. psychedelics can be no different to this sort of practice, except psychedelics are imo much better because they provide the understanding, like your own personal teacher which has access to all parts of your mind.
this is how i use psychedelics, psychedelics eliminate your ego, and thus can show you things just as profound as the teachings of buddha and christ, even moreso because it is so personal. it is easy to hear what psychedelics tell you and ignore it, just as it is easy to hear what christ and buddha had to say and ignore it, in both cases, benefits will only come from dedication and practice.
Different doses give different results, and even identical doses do not bring the same results twice running, so it is impossible to observe Mind in a state of clarity.
What you 'believe' happens to you during a psychedelically induced state is not genuine, because it is not your mind experiencing an egoless state without some form of chemical assistant. Therefore it is not a true state of egolessness.
We are driven by Suffering and clinging to seek a way out of such states of Ignorance, Aversion and Greed. All states of 'suffering' stem from these three conditions.
The Four Noble truths elaborate on these, and the eightfold path is the fundamental and constant, reliable antidote and cure.
This is the foundation to basically every teaching the Buddha subsequently gave. This is where everyone needs to start.
I would simply advise you abstain from psychedelically-induced states of meditation. it goes against the Buddha's teachings, and frankly, gives us nothing to discuss, because as far as most of us are concerned, it's irrelevant to practice.
I'm sorry, but it's not the way to go.
Simply because the Buddha advised us to examine different facts for ourselves, he did not intend that we ultimately 'pick and choose'.
Practice means taking the bits that are difficult or seemingly impossible to digest, and living by them, even if it hurts. If we have tested them to the Nth degree, and found them to be entirely completely irrefutable, but extremely unpleasant to 'the ear' this does not give us carte blanche to not adhere to them.
It seems to me (and of course I may be entirely wrong) that you have taken some aspects of Buddhist teaching, added your own interpretation or arrived at an unskilful conclusion, but decided it is correct.
It is not correct, in Buddhist practice, to indulge in intoxicants.
You may protest until the cows come home that such practice induces an elevated, clear egoless state of mind.
We don't buy it. And neither did the Buddha.
I would respectfully suggest therefore (as I advised above) that you lay aside what you have learnt and absorbed for now, and go right back to basics, by profoundly studying, learning and understanding the Four Noble Truths (and everything they mean) The Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts (in likewise manner).
When you have completely and unambiguously learnt, understood and absorbed these 17, and integrated them into your life 100%, and 100% of the time - pick up the stuff you previously learnt and laid aside, and re-evaluate.
Let us know how you get on.
When I was a young student I took large quantities of LSD and also mescalin and peyote. I never had a bad experience but stopped taking them at a stage where I realised that it was a completely pointless exercise since it was artificially induced.
I also saw others who were distressing casualties including two or three people who had to seek psychiatric help. One person began screaming 'death, death' - and I recall hearing that another went crazy in someone's house chopping furniture with a axe and decapitating the pet cat.
So my advice to you is don't take drugs of any kind. Drugs and alcohol are not compatible to Buddhist practice.
You are following the wrong path by taking psychedelics and I hope you can find a way to give them up
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
the use of intoxicants is spoken against, and i would strongly agree and understand in regards to recreational use. using drugs recreationally goes against everything the buddha 'stood' for.
and what if these 'states' achieved through psychedelic use are learned to be achieved without chemical assistant? which is exactly what i have done with many aspects of psychedelics, and it has not been soley based in my way of living. this gives me enough reason to believe the state of ego death that can be reached on psychedelics can also be learnt to do sober.
This is exactly what psychedelics have taught me and through that, i have learned to eliminate suffering simply by changing the way i think. it was not easy at all and required alot of effort, but psychedelics gave the me directions.
once again, this is exactly what psychedelics have taught me to do. i agree it is not easy at all, sometimes one must go through hell to get to heaven. my ideas are constantly broken down and rebuilt to form stronger ones, through this process i learn alot, and i am finding out alot of what i have been learning has already been said, by buddha, this is why i was driven to this forum. and this is why i do believe psychedelics offer a path of truth.
if this is true i would very much like to know. this is why i came to this forum.
ok thankyou, a very wise suggestment, i will do my best.
i too have been a 'casualty' of psychedelics, but recovered. the experience only deepened my understanding of the mind in a way that prevents it from happening again in similar ways or experiences.
Palzang
Whilst I entirely agree with the underlying meaning here, Palzang, I am also aware that, as Milton Erickson put it, "all mental states are altered states". The 'state' of the Awakened must, of its nature, be the only genuinely unaltered state.
Palzang
I'm scared as hell for you.
Do you know how LSD is made? If not, you must find out because then you will understand part of the danger you're in. I highly doubt the acid you're taking is being made in a lab by a scientist under controlled circumstances. You have to know how it's being made, at the very least.
Do you understand the physical damage LSD, and the various additives that are used in its making, does to the human brain? If you're not fully educated about brain damage and LSD you must become so before you take it again. This information will also help you understand part of the danger you're in.
Even in its purest, scientifically created, and clinically graded form, LSD is brain poison. Period. No scientist with any knowledge of its properties would ever take it willingly.
Buddhism and LSD are absolute opposites and are not compatible in any shape or form. You are looking for a shortcut to something that can only be reached the long way. You will not get to where you want to go even if you do survive the trip with your brain intact, which is highly unlikely. You're either going to die or give yourself permanent brain damage if you insist on taking this route.
How do I know this? I know this because I've witnessed first hand the damage it does. I grew up with a bunch of people and in our teen years a lot of them were doing acid. One of them is now so brain damaged he can't hold a job, have a romantic relationship, drive, and he can't live alone. His mother says it's like caring for someone with Alzheimer's. He shits his pants. He sets the house on fire by accident. His parents thought it might be Schizophrenia when it started in his 20s but countless doctors and specialists later, they now agree the brain damage was caused by chemical abuse, too much acid in his teens and 20s.
Another friend of mine was camping and had a bad trip. She kept screaming, "A bee's eating my brain. A bee's eating my brain!" She went completely nuts and jumped off the top of an outcropping onto rocks and boulders below. Somehow she didn't die and her brain's fine but she got very hurt in the fall and lost a year of school.
Another friend of mine did acid on a school ski trip and skied into a tree. She also lost years of school and never graduated. But she didn't recover so well. It took her years to be able to walk again and only with a cane and great difficulty. She suffered head trauma in the accident and is permanently, and severely, mentally disabled. She was a beautiful, popular, smart, outgoing, blond, blue eyed 15 year old girl at the top of that mountain and today she's maimed, crippled and barely surviving. She hates her life and everything she's lost. She's tried to kill herself 3 or 4 times and one day I imagine she'll succeed.
I could go on and on. Like my friend's older brother who drove while on acid, crashed his car and died. Only a few people know that he was on acid at the time and no one is ever going to tell his parents because it would kill them to know that.
You're dangerously fooling yourself if you think acid is going to further your spiritual development. I understand you're convinced that it will and you think the people I've talked about here were just stupid kids and that you're taking acid 'the right way' and that's the difference. It's not. There is no difference. You and they were all just looking to have an 'experience'. Spiritual development has nothing whatsoever to do with having an experience. It has to do with long, hard work, complete honesty with yourself and your motives, and practice.
The fact that you believe the purpose of Buddhism is to destroy one's ego shows me clearly that you don't understand what you're doing. Getting rid of one's ego, even if it was possible, is not the goal of Buddhism.
And acid can't help you reach enlightenment.
I'm not beating around the bush with you or trying to be nice because what you're doing is incredibly dangerous and horribly foolish and you deserve to be told the truth. You're on the wrong path and deep inside you know it. You think acid is providing you with spiritual development through amazing experiences but what you're actually doing is fucking with your brain. You're playing with fire and you're going to get burned if you keep doing it.
I'm not some straight laced anti-drug kind of person. I did all sorts of drugs when I was younger and even smoked pot once in a while up until I started studying and practicing Buddhism three years ago at the age of 39. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to LSD. Take my age and experience as weight for what I'm telling you. And listen to what the others on this thread are telling you. They're not lying and they're not fools. They know what they're talking about too. They really, really do.
I think you're a wonderful, extremely smart, amazing person. I want happiness and peace for you. I want spiritual development, understanding and insight for you. I don't want anything to happen to that incredible and precious brain of yours.
Ask yourself this question:
Are you looking for spiritual growth and development or are you looking for 'experiences'?
If you're sincerely looking for the former, stop dropping acid and start practicing Buddhism or any other religion of your choice.
If you're looking for the latter, Buddhism is not where you're going to find it because although people have experiences as a result of practicing Buddhism, the Buddha's instructions were to treat these experiences like everything else; observe them and let them go. Very strong experiences can be detrimental to the Path because they can distract and misguide us. Ultimately all these things must be let go. As Chogyam Trungpa would tell his students when they came to him breathless with tales of amazing experiences, "That's wonderful! ...But no big deal, eh?"
Here's another thing to think about: I said earlier that deep inside you knew LSD wasn't the right path for spiritual development. Now that I think about it, I think you know you're on the wrong path on a more conscious level. There are two reasons why I think this is true. The first is the amount of trouble you're going to to firm up and justify your reasoning for taking acid. If you were completely sure acid was the right way to go you wouldn't feel the need to justify its use to yourself or to anyone else.
The second reason is that you came here with your question about it. I'm pretty sure you knew you wouldn't get a positive response about doing acid for spiritual development from a bunch of sincerely practicing Buddhists. You're a smart person and I think you knew what you were doing when you came here.
Please stay safe and I'll be wishing you great peace, joy, and the development of your heart and mind.
But you're absolutely right. Using a drug to look for enlightenment is like using a .45 to clean the wax out of your ears.
Palzang
Do you understand the physical damage LSD, and the various additives that are used in its making, does to the human brain? If you're not fully educated about brain damage and LSD you must become so before you take it again. This information will also help you understand part of the danger you're in.
Even in its purest, scientifically created, and clinically graded form, LSD is brain poison. Period. No scientist with any knowledge of its properties would ever take it willingly.[/quote]
unfortunately not going to be able to take you seriously because you said LSD gives you brain damage lol. id like to see where you get that info. lets replace the drug with psilocybin then, correctly identified mushrooms from nature, or mescaline, dmt plants. now we know what were getting.
thats bullshit theres plenty, plenty of WELL KNOWN people who have taken psychedelic drugs countless times and nothing like this has happened. most of the regular psychedelic users i have read about or talked to are on average much smarter than the norm in this society.
i have taken psychedelics for years sometimes way too much than i should of and i am fine. i am not being the only judge of that either.
yeah well fortunately i am going to base my opinions on psychedelics off my own experiences, where i have been around literally thousands of people tripping over the years and never seen anything like that happen. psychotic reactions only occur when people are unprepared and unknowldgeable, or eve if they are; if they dont have an experienced guide. this is proven in "LSD my problem child; ALBERT HOFFMAN"
psychedelics do not cause brain damage but they completely change how you think, and like traumatic experiences in life they can cause nuerosis and psychosis
[/quote]You're dangerously fooling yourself if you think acid is going to further your spiritual development. I understand you're convinced that it will and you think the people I've talked about here were just stupid kids and that you're taking acid 'the right way' and that's the difference. It's not. There is no difference. You and they were all just looking to have an 'experience'. Spiritual development has nothing whatsoever to do with having an experience. It has to do with long, hard work, complete honesty with yourself and your motives, and practice.
The fact that you believe the purpose of Buddhism is to destroy one's ego shows me clearly that you don't understand what you're doing. Getting rid of one's ego, even if it was possible, is not the goal of Buddhism. [/quote]
well i have become very spiritual i can list in what ways if you wish, my development has come soley from experience, i understand there is alot more to it than losing your ego but depending on how you define 'ego', i thought it was a good general way of explaining it
psychedelics imo certainly do produce spiritual experiences
look even scientists say so http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0127105120080702
yes well the thing is there is so much bullshit out there i dont know what is true. that includes religion. the only thing that is true to me is my own experience, alot can be learned from it. i dont hold onto my past experiences, but instead learn from them so i can treat the present moment better, i live in the 'now' most of the time and i dont really ever suffer because theres always a way to change your thoughts about somethig so you can let go of it.
so i am learning from my own experiences and buddhism seems to be teaching similar things, that is what drove me here.
i am not looking for spiritual growth and development if i am going to be told how it is supposed to be done. how do i know thats the right way. a christian would tell me spiritual growth is commpletely different. i am so tired i cant even explain myself properly.
i still dont see why what i said before isnt valid. saying ACID IS NOT ENLIGHTENMENT doesnt really prove anything.
i was only 'justifying', a better word is explaining, my psychedelic use/understanding in hopes someone would explain to me a different understanding. which no one has done.
there is much more illsuion in the states produced sober by the ego
there is a great deal from both which can be learnt to bring one closer to enlightenment.
all levels of existance exist in the buddha
how did the buddha learn all this stuff about enlightenment? his experiences with suffering
i remember a verse where Jesus told a man to give away all of his posessions to the poor if he wanted to enter the kingdom of heaven. i think this was because jesus knew he needs to experience to understand that these posessions are of the ego and only cause suffering. the kingdom of heaven being liberation
You say:
I don't think that's really true because you've resisted everything everyone has said in this thread that doesn't coincide with your own experiences/opinions.
Anyway, I hope you realize soon that acid is not going to bring you any closer to spiritual understanding because you're clearly never going to listen to anyone else on the matter. I sincerely wish you peace and happiness, Retro.
i mean fuck lets say i started to simply believe what people told me like you are expecting me to do brigid, i walk into a church so now i am a contemporary christian.
i could say the same about you guys. your not listening to me because my opinions dont coincide with yours.
the problem is no one has given me any reason to doubt what ive said. funny how you brigid said that, you know what you are talking about when it comes to LSD yet everything you said was bullshit and you know it.
i could provide factual evidence to disprove just about everythig you said about LSD, just ask me and i will.
Everything I said was absolutely true. But you can believe it wasn't if you want. It doesn't matter. You can also spit my concern for you back in my face. That doesn't matter either. But I do hope you decide to take the proven route to spiritual development if that's ever something you want to do. But whatever.
Good luck with everything.
'Bardo means becoming or transitioning. Basically we're always in a bardo state because that's the nature of samsara.'
I'm not engaging with the debate on hallucinogenics but our human [empty] cravings for altered states and the desire to 'shift consciousness', to escape the pain of consciousness, move away from aversion, take short cuts to'enlightenment' etc is always with us. Each time I do a retreat I find myself struggling with battles that feel the same although they are in fact lightening, shifting, passing away with practice. But the reality of bardic transitioning is important to remember when I feel stuck.
Mary
Your psychedelic experiences are clearly very important to you, as is sharing the insights you have gained from them. You need to understand, however, that this is an idiosyncratic position.
Because these experiences are so important to you, the opposition to them that you have met here must appear confrontational and critical but, should you spend a little time looking back over the many months and years of our conversations, you will see that members are, by and large. compassionate and caring.
You want to persuade us that your insights are valid and illuminating, quite understandably. May I suggest that you do so with some gentleness rather than dogmatically, irrespective of how dogmatic the responses you may get.
Personally, it is now many decades since I last used LSD or mescaline but I remember that time with great fondness, and can quite understand why Aldous Huxley asked for mesc when he was dying. My own decision to stop was entirely personal. I found that whatever I wrote while tripping was incomprehensible, incomplete, inaccurate and incompetent - but that was just me.
Since then I have used valium and morphine for peri- and post-operative pain, antidepressants for clinical depression and I remain a caffeine addict (multiple daily cups of tea). I am aware that each of these is a set-back on the road of training in the precepts.
Be aware, my friend, that there is a deep antipathy among many people to the use of products which are deemed state-altering, despite the fact that they may also use other, similar products. Such double standards are common and human: cultivate a benevolent mind and you will find them gentle eccentricities rather than annoying hypocrisy.
As Buddhist, Brigid and Palzang and the others believe that intention is all. Do, please, understand that their intention is benign.