Still crazy after all these years

Comments

• BhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  Well now I'm confused and discouraged. I thought A Path With Heart was a great book. Am I completely on the wrong path then?
  At the end, Kearney says "For ultimately we must choose whom we will follow. We can follow Buddha or we can follow Freud; we cannot do both, because they are just not travelling in the same direction."
  So should I abandon doing therapy and seeing my counsellor? Should I just have faith in a particular tradition, as Kearney says, and give up my meds?
  
  Now I feel bleak and empty.
  
  

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• federica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  No. two paths run parallel, but they do not always run closely.
  Occasionally they converge, but do not meld.
  Use Buddhism to underpin your therapy. Not the other way around.
  And understand that, like oil and water, both flow, but both have completely different functions..... yet can be utilised as lubricants, and smooth your way.

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• fivebells Veteran

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  I read this with interest, because early in my practice, Epstein and Kornfield had a big influence on me. I see two thrusts in his essay. The first is "this isn't Buddhism as the Buddha taught it." So what? People were undoubtedly saying the same thing about Zen at first. It's certain that they dismissed Mahayana Buddhism in general as a corruption, because you can read Shantideva's rebuttal of the dismissal in Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life. Why are these strains of Buddhism are more valid to the author than what he's attacking? It's simply because they're centuries old. I don't see why Buddhism shouldn't be adapted to fit a new culture. It's been happening for centuries.
  
  The second more practical thrust of his essay comes up towards the end:

  We began this paper with Jack Kornfield’s assertion that half the students who attempt the three month retreat at IMS cannot engage vipassanâ meditation because of the suffering they are undergoing. In the Nidâna-vagga of Samyutta Nikâya the Buddha in one passage expounds in brief the full path from suffering to liberation. He explains that suffering gives rise to faith (saddhâ), faith gives rise to delight (pâmojja), delight gives rise to rapture, rapture gives rise to calm, calm gives rise to bliss, bliss gives rise to concentration, concentration gives rise to knowing and seeing phenomena as they are, knowing and seeing phenomena as they are gives rise to disenchantment, disenchantment gives rise to the fading of passion, and the fading of passion gives rise to liberation (S 2.30-3). Note how the process begins. From suffering we proceed to delight, and what turns suffering into delight is faith. Faith is the missing ingredient in the strange attempt to psychotherapeutise Buddhism. None of the therapists we have looked at here seem to have taken seriously the thought that what we need to do is cultivate faith in the three treasures of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Presumably they are far too sophisticated for that - or perhaps they just feel that faith won’t sell.

  This is a fairly sloppy misunderstanding of the practices he is criticizing, and a semantic trick. Of course those practices necessarily entail faith in the three jewels, though it is not the ontological faith we generally associate with religion. As in all Buddhism, there needs to be faith in the good intentions of teacher, in the validity of their teachings, and in the personal capacity to pursue the practice. All of this faith has to develop on the basis of personal experience if it is to have a solid foundation. It is hard for anyone to develop, in any Buddhist tradition or ambient culture. Some aspects of Western developmental psychology which particularly challenge that faith can be effectively addressed using psychotherapy. That is all Kornfield etc. are saying.
  
  Overall, I found it a disappointing essay, because it was full of these kinds of careless misunderstandings, and because it never adequately justified its concern with adherence to the traditional teachings of Buddhism as the "true" form.
  

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• federica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  Thanks, 5B...
  I tried to read my way through it but confess I found it too laborious...
  Glad you evaluated it this way.
  Clarifies things far better than I did.
  And Obviously, more accurately.

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• fivebells Veteran

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  Well, my opinions should be read in the light of the importance Epstein and Kornfield had for me early on.

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• federica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  which is an advantage, as I haven't read them......

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• Subjectivity9

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  Because psychotherapy is one of the 'major religions' in these United States, I find no good reason why Buddhism shouldn’t travel into that area, and seek out the seekers who have been misdirected by the medical establishment. Do you?
  
  If a Bodhisattva is willing to travel into the depths of hell in search of those needful of his services, why not the area of phychotheraphy, I must wonder?
  
  What are these seekers seeking, if it is not an end to mental suffering?
  
  How does Kornfield lead these suffering people? He leads them through “Meditation,” and “Mindfulness.”
  
  The fiend! ; ^ )
  
  Q: Pg 91:
  
  “These forces within us (grief, sorrow, and rage) move our lives, and we must feel them in order to come to terms with them. Meditation is not a process to get rid of something, but one of opening up and understanding.”
  
  S9:It is with Clarity (as referred to above) that these poisons loss their power over us, and simply melt away.
  
  Tell me, what might the Buddha say differently about this narrow area of insight. Remember, if you will, that this could be entry level for many suffers.
  
  Warm Regards,
  S9

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• Geoff-Allen

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  Good discussion this one!
  
  James, there's no need 2 feel bleak or discouraged - there is great news - Buddhism is truly transformative and has been around for 25 centuries so it has stood the test of time.
  
  Take my case 4 example:
  
  I was diagnosed with schizophrenia WAY back in 1983. For the next 16 or so years I alternated between volcanic anger & suicidal depression. So believe me I know what the word bleak means! Looking back, it is an absolute miracle I survived.
  
  Yes, if you had told me I would get RIGHT into meditation & reading books like "Conversations with God" & treating everyone with compassion I would have absolutely laughed in your face. So, it just goes 2 show no-one is a "hopeless case".
  
  I have been meditating for about 10 years now and my mind is serene & tranquil - well., most of the time. It is FAR better than I would have dared 2 imagine during those dark daze.
  
  Here's wishing you all the best and remember what the Buddha said -
  
  Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
  even though they have been held in honor
  for many generations and in diverse places.
  Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
  Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
  Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
  persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
  Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
  After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
  and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
  
  http://www.sapphyr.net/buddhist/buddhist-quotes.htm
  
  Namaste

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• Geoff-Allen

  December 2009 edited December 2009

  http://www.wildmind.org/metta
  
  Namaste

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