Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Buddhism & the poison called Alcohol
I feel kind of strange starting this topic, as alcohol is not at all important to me in life, but for practical matters I do wonder:
- I read alcohol is perceived as poison, and should not be consumed, it's obvious why: it may well cloud the mind.
- Still what about having a glass of wine with dinner? Is that allowed?
- I read that Buddhists that have years of Buddhists "training" are allowed alcohol for functional reasons...?
- What about substances like coffee or just caffeine in general?
Personally I can give up on alcohol in a second, although I like a wine with dinner ... but from experience I know having a beer with friends can often create a very social situation, oddly enough also for others (being one of them).
Thanks as always !!
- I read alcohol is perceived as poison, and should not be consumed, it's obvious why: it may well cloud the mind.
- Still what about having a glass of wine with dinner? Is that allowed?
- I read that Buddhists that have years of Buddhists "training" are allowed alcohol for functional reasons...?
- What about substances like coffee or just caffeine in general?
Personally I can give up on alcohol in a second, although I like a wine with dinner ... but from experience I know having a beer with friends can often create a very social situation, oddly enough also for others (being one of them).
Thanks as always !!
0
Comments
I know that people have different interpretations on this topic, especially on how it deals with the precepts.
Taking intoxicants which cloud the mind can be somewhat counterproductive, yes.
Some have taught a complete rejection of alcohol, others may not see be so strict. As far as the precepts go, there is the thought that when one consumes alcohol (and becomes intoxicated) there is a real danger of that person breaking the some of the other precepts.
I don't think that caffeine is considered an intoxicant in this context.
Thanks for your views on this matter. Indeed views on it do seem to differ.
It's strange to think that minimal use of alcohol would lead to immediate intoxication, which is untrue. I mean you are even allowed to have a minimum quantity and drive...
I don't mind giving it up, but I wonder about the minimal use of it, dining being the most practical one.
Thanks !!
Buddhism doesn't lay out a bunch of restrictions that you must follow. You make your own choices. You make them mindfully, observing the underlying cravings that're present, the reasons for which you desire to do something, the consequences to yourself and others, etc. The Buddha taught his son:
Anything we consume alters our bodies and thus our minds. Some things affect us in ways that are beneficial and help our bodies function in a healthy way. Some things do not, and lead to harm in various ways. Idealy, we'd all eat only what we need and only to sustain ourselves. But that's a choice for you to make and work on, not because "Buddhism says so," but because it's what's best for you.
Anything that we crave/cling to is an intoxicant in the same way. The cravings are the real issue, the real intoxicant that the Buddha's teachings are concerned with. When these are dealt with, the rest follows.
I don't think anyone will be violating the fifth precept by drinking stimulants such as coffee and tea. Recently, I read an essay by a bhikkhu ... he says that he sometimes takes his coffee to his meditating mat and practices mindfulness on the actual drinking of the coffee.
The translations of the fifth precept from Pali or Sanskrit is not always consistent. Sometimes it seems that alcohol (intoxicating drinks) should be avoided altogether and sometimes it seems that the "abusive use" of alcohol should be avoided. This can be confusing. Where can I get a word for word translation of the fifth precept of the Pali Canon?
EDIT: Mundus...didn't see your post when I posted this. You have answered some of the issues.
To oOMundus:
Very, very useful quote, thanks so much. I wonder now though what if you are not sure of the outcome, of possible affliction, what if there's DOUBT ?!
With reference to alcohol, a little wine with dinner is considered healthy in general, so no affliction there. However in other contexts (such as parties etc), I will perceive it different personally, or at least think about it allot.
To Sukhita:
Haha... great story, I think it's a great way to put things in perspective, thanks 4 that!!
Cheers
To begin with, it should be made clear that Buddhist precepts are not equivalent to commandments in that precepts are training rules which are voluntarily undertaken rather than edicts or commands dictated by a higher power and/or authority. The precepts are undertaken to protect ourselves, as well as others, from the results of unwholesome actions.
As for whether having a glass of wine with dinner violates the fifth precept, it depends on who you ask. Some say yes and some say no. Dhammanando Bhikkhu, for example, states:
The main reasoning behind this interpretation — which is based on Abhidhammic teachings — is that "every breach of the fifth precept arises from a greed-rooted citta."
Ajahn Khemasanto, on the other hand, has said that having a glass of wine with dinner (for a lay-followers at least) doesn't violate the fifth precept as long as one stops before they can "feel the effects" of the alcohol. The main reasoning behind this interpretation, I suppose, is the intent of the precept itself, i.e., the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs that lead to carelessness is meant to help protect one from breaking the other four precepts, not to insinuate that drinking alcohol in and of itself is unwholesome.
Whether this is what the Buddha himself meant when he formulated the fifth precept, I don't know; I am just passing along what I've heard. I have a glass of beer or wine once in a while myself, and I don't lose any sleep over it. Suffice it to say that I tend to follow the spirit rather than the letter when it comes to doctrine.
My teacher says "serve what is true to the limits of your perception. If there's any doubt, make the best guess. If things go wrong, you've learned something.
Palzang
Also, thanks everybody, for your thoughts.
Personally I feel that a minimum use of alcohol, saying wine basically, which I drink purely for the fact that I think it is good for digestion and obviously complements dinner, should be alright.
I am not drinking it because I want any of its intoxicating effects, besides, I think it could be scientifically proven that 1 glass of wine will (on average) not have such effects.
I mean no disrespect, and my plan is simply to abolish all other drinking, but this I see as part of a meal. If I were to say, I drink alcohol because it relaxes me (saying the (intoxicating) effects of it do), that would strike me, personally, far more as crossing a line.
Thanks Jason for the excellent & relevant link, very interesting.
I didn't drink for 12 months and recently went back to having 1 small glass of wine with dinner or a small low-alcohol beer.
I used to really believe alcohol did no harm and used to drink about 4 glasses of wine a night (not small ones either...) I remember posting on another buddhist forum that I would not give this up because I enjoyed it and it didn't make me a bad person.
But I can tell you that after those 12-months of not drinking at all (for very many, varied reasons) I am continually amazed by how 1 glass changes me, my perception and my feelings towards the world.
My glass of wine last night was no more than a thimble-full. I love the taste and my girlfriend is a very skilled Sommelier... But that is all I need.
I am not being pious, I just wanted to share how perceptions of 'abuse' of alcohol differ greatly depending on how much you consume in the first place.
Now, I will put myself in that same boat of not noticing these things so much. I arguably eat more than I need to and I do occasionally indulge in a drink or two (though not very often). At this point in my practice though, I'm mustering about as much effort as I can (though not up to potential, obviously).
I think this is only fair, as far as you are honest with yourself, it's like loosing wait, when loosing a bit of weight with time goes fine, why force great weight-loss by pure will, with "suffering" in a different context in result ?
Of course it is alright. You have not taken a formal Vow in which you have promised NOT to drink. Therefore, drinking is no big deal.
... however, IF you had taken a formal Vow which included not drinking ... well, then you dont drink.
Its like getting married and promising not to sleep with other women. Its not that sex is prohibited ... its just that youve made a promise.
From what I gather this is ok, as you your responsibilty, for your own doings.
This makes sense to me.
The following translation was posted on another forum I frequent and is one I largely agree with. The original poster is a Pali scholar who posts under the handle Kare.
I should also note that majja can be translated as intoxicant to include much more than just alcohol. The hardliners often use stricter, more prohibitive translations of that sort. Personally I don't think that translating majja as intoxicant makes sense when taken in context of the rest of the sentence and the Pali grammar. Carelessness-intoxication-condition seems to be a better fit than carelessness-intoxicant-condition, especially if you consider majja and pamada as synonyms. There has been endless hours of debate on this, and I could go on for a bit, but I'll stop here.
As for myself, I abstain from alcohol completely, as even small amounts of alcohol do not agree with me. However, I think if lay people want to have an occasional drink, it is not breaking the precept as long as they do not become drunken or careless.
Excellent! Thanks for your response and especially the effort you put into this.
I haven't had any alcoholic drinks for a year now. Don't feel for it anymore.
Kind regards.