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Buddhism and logic
I recently started reading about Buddhism and I received some books last month. Everything makes so much sense, almost everything I've read about it is something I had thought of before. I had all of these ideas but was struggling to find a religion that fit me, it felt great to find something that matched my ideas exactly. But, there is one part of Buddhism that I'm not understanding. Every article or book I've started reading starts out saying that Buddhism is a logical religion, that what it contains can be verified yourself, that it isn't a religion that relies on faith or metaphysical ideas. But later on, the article/book will start talking about the Realms of Existence. I'm not seeing how that is something that I can verify for myself. I understand Karma and rebirth, how am I supposed to understand the Realms of Existance and connect them with Karma and rebirth? Some articles even deeply detail each realm describing what they are like, how did people find this out?
I'm new to this so help me understand.
I'm new to this so help me understand.
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Comments
Chic, have a look at these links....
Hopefully it will bring you a greater understanding...
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/0006e/sources/realms.htm
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/Six-Realms-of-Existence.htm
As you can see, they're explained in a real sense, but also as different facets of your mental construct.....
Theravada has Five.
Mahayana has six.
Please don't concern yourself with the intricacies of different schools.
When push comes to shove, and you consider the fundamental basics - they all start off from the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts....
Palzang
Very often ‘different realms of existence’ need not be a literal rendition of circumstances. Rather it can be understood metaphorically, as being many states of our own psyche, when we come at the world in a certain way and how it affects us. (a two way street.)
I don’t believe any of us are trapped in one realm only, but that we move through these realms daily, momentarily, much like our emotions fluctuate.
Often subtle understandings can be represented in a form more easily understood, (like one picture says a thousand words), or like the ancient Greek goddesses and gods often represented things within our own psychic make up and not actually dieties.
Hope this helps you, some. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
A few of the replies suggested looking at the Realms as mental states we experience daily or mental states we will experience in each life (being poor, alone, famous, etc). I started reading about Buddhism in November and I've noticed many other places put it that way too. But what keeps me from accepting that is this quote from my "Tree of Enlightenment" book:
In recent years, there has been a tendency to interpret the six realms in psychological terms. Some teachers have suggested that the experience of the six realms is available to us in this very life. Undoubtedly, this is true so far as it goes. Those men and women who find themselves in prisons, tortured, killed, and so forth are undoubtedly experiencing a situation similar to that of the hell beings. Similarly, those who are miserly and avaricious experience a state of mind similar to that of the hungry ghosts. And those who are animal-like experience a state of mind similar to that of the animals. Those who are quarrelsome, powerful and jealous experience a state of mind similar to that of the Asuras. Those who are proud, tranquil, serene and exalted experience a state of mind similar to that of the gods. Yet, while it is undoubtedly true that the experience of the six realms is to some extent available to us in this human existence, I think it would be a mistake to assume or to believe that the six realms of existence do not have a reality which is as real as our human experience. The hells, the realm of the hungry ghosts, animals, demigods and gods are as real as our human realm. We will recall that mind is the creator of all mental states. Actions done with a pure mind motivated by generosity, love and so forth result in happy mental states or states of existence like the human realm and the realm of the gods. But actions done with an impure mind affected by greed, ill-will and so forth result in unhappy lives like those of the hungry ghosts and hell beings.
To me, so far from what I've read, it feels like looking at the Realms as being changing mental states may be taking the easy way. It's easy to think of the Realms as mental states but if they are real "realms", I want to understand that. I want to be able to prove it to myself. Karma and rebirth are easy to understand. If you do something good or bad it's going to have an effect on people, and they will eventually react. It has an effect on everything. But, how do I understand something I can't see, that I can't experience for myself (in this life)?
Buddhism started as a spiritual teaching, that is, verifiable, but as it grew, included faith teachings.
Regarding the realms of existence, these are the results of actions. Dependent on personal interpretation, one can regard these as either physical or mental. Either way, the essense remains the same.
For example, certain actions (eg. drug taking) can lead to the hungry ghost realm (addiction).
Or other actions (eg. robbery) can lead to the healm realm (prison).
Kind regards
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html
Hi
I'm feeling confused. Did you intend to use the quote to support an opinion that mental states aren't "real" realms of existence? If so, will you please re-examine the quote? I imagine it clearly states that mental states are states of existence; as per my highlights.
Will you please tell me how I'm incorrect in this analysis?
Shalom and Hugs
Hi chicnstu
My view is that these "realms" are latter cultural contaminations and are not what the Buddha taught. Titans? Devas? I agree they seem really out of place in Dharma:)
I have toyed with the idea that they may be his version of "possible world thought experiments" but that fails to convince:)
Well wishes
Mat
Chicnstu, sometimes if something seems imponderable to us, the best way to approach it is to ask one's self:
How can this support my practice? Does it make any difference, right now, what my View is?"
It's perfectly ok to leave things aside and not be concerned by them one way or the other.... maybe, further along the 'road', answers will manifest. Maybe they won't. It's really not all that important.
What counts, is your own personal, mental state and attitude, right now.
What counts is that you consider the Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts, and you'll find - in time - that an awareness, a consciousness, will surface and become apparent.....
be patient.
be well.
F: Yes Mat.... The problem is though, I think that unless you actually felt your chest moving, you'd doubt you were breathing, too....
S9: Is this a bad thing, to check things out and not to just swallow them whole? Seems to me that we are living in the land of illusion, so it would be best to err on the side of caution. If he wasn’t breathing, he could start CPR on himself. ; ^ )
But, like you say, there is nothing wrong with keeping an open mind and shelving something for later.
I don’t think many people actually meditate out of blind faith. Something has brought them to that point instead of just having another beer. Not only that but, meditation would have a very short life if people didn’t start to feel some slight improvement.
Peace,
S9
__
R: Without this actual practice, this discipline of sustained concentration, how can you penetrate that?
S9: Some people use contemplation (looking directly) as the avenue to Nirvana. Other people use devotion (surrender). I believe both of these take one beyond the mind, the mother of all imagination.
Perhaps this is because, both of these turn their back on the mental chattering as the only truth available to us, and thereby insight flows in.
Respectfully,
S9
I think that all dogma is a little like that party game called gossip.
One kid is told something and relays it to another kid by whispering, so that no one else can hear it. Then that kid whispers it to another kid, and so on down the line of say 12 kids. The joke that makes the kids 'laugh out loud' is, when it is finally repeated so that everyone can hear it at the end of the line, and then compared with the original words, the changes are so phenomenally different that it is laughable.
Poor Buddha's words have been whispered for centuries. : ^ (
The only thing that keeps his words anywhere near to the original, IMPO, is that every now and then someone very wise comes along, and after experiencing the same things Buddha did, revamps the message.
That‘s my take, anyway. But then people have been hung on a cross for saying less, so I'm going to go and hide.
: ^ (
Warm Regards,
S9
That's what I've been considering. Why does it matter if the realms exist? The goal is to live a good life. I'm not sure why anyone would have added these realms to Buddhism, it seems to go against many of the things I've read about Buddhism. For example, quotes from the Buddha saying that it doesn't matter if a God exists, etc.
I'm only 21, so hopefully I have many more years to figure these things out for myself.
To Brother Bob: I don't have an opinion yet, that's why I joined the forum and made the topic. To me, the quote seems to be saying that it is both mental states and something that really exists.
Hi chicnstu, It appears as though you have the correct attitude, 'I have many more years to figure these things out for myself.'
I imagine, if you gently reflect on the questions that arise for you in your journey, the answers will arise in time. I also imagine investigating 'How 'Realms' may be mental states and something that really exists?' as fruitful.
Further, I have heard that it's best to never become attached to any opinions (views).
'The Second Mindfulness Training: Nonattachment from Views
Aware of the suffering created by attachment to views and wrong perceptions, we are determined to avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. We shall learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to others' insights and experiences. We are aware that the knowledge we presently possess is not changeless, absolute truth. Truth is found in life, and we will observe life within and around us in every moment, ready to learn throughout our lives.' http://iamhome.org/14trainings.htm
Looks like you get it!
I really identified with it, as I didn't have a name for what I believed except, "I believe a, b, c, d, etc..." before someone mentioned that it appeared to be dzogchen buddhism. It seemed right to me. I didn't know it had a name.
I'm new to everything also.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/schools1.htm
http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/fastfacts/differences_theravada_mahayana.htm
I'm reading it as Theravada doesn't have the Realms, multiple Bodhisattvas, etc. to "believe" in. Am I reading wrong?
Firstly, theravada does have the realms. E.g. That's straight out of the Pali (Theravada) canon.
Theravadins are just as capable of these kinds of cosmological beliefs as those of Mahayana schools.
Secondly, it is quite possible to pursue practices from Mahayana schools without believing these cosmological assertions. That's what I do. For a comprehensive look at how this works, check out this series of podcasts.
I'll check that out tomorrow.