Are There Limits To Forgiveness?

AllbuddhaBound

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable? And who has the right to judge them?

vinlyn

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable? And who has the right to judge them?

I think there are limits to forgiveness, and you've given the perfect example. In terms of who has the right not to forgive, I guess that depends on what you mean by having the right. We all the right to our thoughts.

federica

Angulimala was 'forgiven'....(yeah, sorry, that old chestnut)

the people most closely connected to the crimes, will have to be the ones to answer those questions.
It's easier to forgive when there is only observation, not involvement.

patbb

forgiveness only involves you.

so if you don't forgive, you punish yourself.

so if you put limit on forgiveness, you put limit on your personal liberation from suffering.


That doesn't mean you should let a wild lion loose in the kindergarten.

You see the wild lion for what he is, no need to hate, just deal with him the best you can so he doesn't go on killing babies.

Victorious

@patbb

May I ask if you have children?

Jeffrey

Is forgiveness an entity? Just starting my engines with that question. Seriously I think in the west the idea of forgiveness is influenced by the notion of good and evil.

I don't think the victims of a murderer or torturer would soon forgive that person.

Buddha perhaps would forgive, but I think the Buddha would just be so in toon with the potential to awaken that person. Buddha would give whatever was needed. Which could be giving difficulties to see something or develop persistence.

You can say, "who has the right to judge them?" But then who has the right to tell another not to judge. Judging is it's own reward and karma. Judge not lest you be judged is the cliche.

patbb

@victorious yes i have a family and lots of people who i would gladly give my life for.
i know where you are going with this tho.
Can i forgive life for taking dear one? and making a bunch of them suffer? I did.

Would i be able to forgive the rapist of my child...

I don't know.

I think i would but who knows.


My answer was about the mechanic of suffering.

Dakini

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable? And who has the right to judge them?

Forgiveness would be up to the families of their victims, individually. They say forgiveness is for the victims, for releasing themselves from hate and negativity. It can bring about healing all 'round. But in the case of despots, I don't think they're interested in healing. They're too cynical.

Whether or not anyone has a right to judge them, society does, history does. The good that has come from judging Hitler is that now when there are Neo-Nazi demonstrations, counter-demonstrations often are organized. Never again will such people be able to think they represent the norm, or positive values to be emulated.

vinlyn

...

Whether or not anyone has a right to judge them, society does, history does. The good that has come from judging Hitler is that now when there are Neo-Nazi demonstrations, counter-demonstrations often are organized. Never again will such people be able to think they represent the norm, or positive values to be emulated.

I like that. It is often, in life, the extremes that help set the norms.

Victorious

We are not monks.

/Victor

patbb

We are not monks.

/Victor

you don't need to be a monk to want to be happy.

The way i see it, i own it to my family to be as free as possible from hatred/sadness/anger.
They want me to be happy, free from self torture.

For the benefit of all sentient beings


its not about forcing ourself, it's about understanding. Letting go naturally.

Victorious

easy to say impossible to do. (At least for me).

Here is something I have admired all my life. I think it is up your alley.

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/ueshiba/quotes.htm

/Victor

AMH

I think that in general there are not limits to forgiveness imposed by outside, however I do know I have limits to forgiveness. Maybe the totally enlightened Buddha would not but I am not even close yet.

For me there are 2 important factors,
One is to realize forgiveness sets us free and in no way reduces whatever consequences the perpetrator has. A victim's family may forgive something or not forgive but the sentence and possible parole are based on other factors most of all.

The other is that it is perfectly ok to start by forgiving ourselves for not being ready or capable of forgiving someone else. As much as I talk the talk, I have people that certain actions I am not sure I have forgiven, actions where it doesn't matter the cause and my compassion is scarce. And with those I am just as accepting of myself as I try to be of others.

Gui

If it is true that you realize non-duality, then the question to be asked is are there limits to forgiving yourself.

Bodha8

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable? And who has the right to judge them?

You either follow the buddha's teaching, or you don't. It's your choice.

Namaste

federica

which are....?
Make statements like that, and it would be helpful to back them up with some kind of reference or link.

thanks.

seeker242

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable?

Yes. Non-forgivness prevents hate from being stilled. It is wise to forgive all wrong acts and all people who commit wrong acts. Otherwise, you are essentially injecting yourself with poison. But, as other people have said, we do have the right to inject ourselves with poison. However, is that really a wise thing to do? To willingly continue to harbor hatred?

The Dhammapada 3,4
"He abused me(them), he struck me(them), he overpowered me(them), he robbed me(them)." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred."

They can not be reconciled with, but they can be forgiven.

The Buddha succeeded in establishing a religion that has been a genuine force for peace and harmony, not only because of the high value he placed on these qualities but also because of the precise instructions he gave on how to achieve them through forgiveness and reconciliation. Central to these instructions is his insight that forgiveness is one thing, reconciliation is something else.

The Pali word for forgiveness-khama-also means "the earth." A mind like the earth is non-reactive and unperturbed. When you forgive me for harming you, you decide not to retaliate, to seek no revenge. You don't have to like me. You simply unburden yourself of the weight of resentment and cut the cycle of retribution that would otherwise keep us ensnarled in an ugly samsaric wrestling match. This is a gift you can give us both, totally on your own, without my having to know or understand what you've done.

Reconciliation — patisaraniya-kamma — means a return to amicability, and that requires more than forgiveness. It requires the reestablishing of trust. If I deny responsibility for my actions, or maintain that I did no wrong, there's no way we can be reconciled. Similarly, if I insist that your feelings don't matter, or that you have no right to hold me to your standards of right and wrong, you won't trust me not to hurt you again. To regain your trust, I have to show my respect for you and for our mutual standards of what is and is not acceptable behavior; to admit that I hurt you and that I was wrong to do so; and to promise to exercise restraint in the future. At the same time, you have to inspire my trust, too, in the respectful way you conduct the process of reconciliation. Only then can our friendship regain a solid footing.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/reconciliation.html

vinlyn

In history, there have been many despots who have killed millions. Is that forgiveable? And who has the right to judge them?

You either follow the buddha's teaching, or you don't. It's your choice.

Namaste

It's very simplistic to say something like that. But even without cherry-picking, there are very few people who probably follow Buddha's teachings...all of them...to the letter. And whether you do, or not, depends a great deal as to whether you see Buddhism as a religion to be obeyed, or a philosophy to be lived by.

RichardH

Theoretically all is forgiven.. that is easy. Practically, in our actual hearts and minds, it isn't so easy. I'd say all is forgiven no matter how grave the trespass... It just might take time, because the heart/mind takes its own time, and idealism won't change that.
Everything flushes through eventually.

patbb

easy to say impossible to do. (At least for me).

hi Victor,

Just my opinion/rambling about this kind of stuff:

My opinion is that I don't think it's impossible for anyone.


My understanding is we hold on to stuff like that out of "ignorance".
And once we realize what is truly happening, we let go, very naturally and effortlessly.

for instance:
"That bastard did this terrible thing, he doesn't deserve our forgiveness!"
which is a perfectly reasonable line of thought.

but when we start to reflect inwardly and look at what is truly happening inside, we realize that the situation might not really be as we previously thought it was.

now we realize what we are actually doing:
"I'm torturing myself because that guy did something bad."
he deserve the punishment, not me.
Already it is a bit easier to imagine that we would want to let go.

"I can't enjoy my evening at home with my kids because my mind is carried away by feelings and thoughts of hate toward this guy! What am i doing to myself??"
Now we are well on our way to let go.


I think this old burning coal story hit it spot on.

Not forgiving is holding on to our resentments.
Like holding on to a burning piece of coal.

a: "Why do you hold that burning coal, it's burning your hands!"
b: "because that guy insulted me, so im getting back at him!"
a: "This guy is out there sun bathing at the beach, how is this doing anything to him?"
b: "yeahhh... maybe i didn't think this through.."




why do we think it is impossible or very difficult for us to do?
I think that each and every one of us has let go of resentments many times in our lives.
Things that people have done to us in the past, little things, big things.
But most of us did it without reflecting too much about it.
We did it still with our mind set to the situational world.
"he did this therefore i feel this way or I did this therefore i feel this way..."

Mainly basing our decision on subjective rules set by society
someone die:
common sense says something like: "we morn for 1 week intensely, one month softly, then anything above that is weird"
breakup:
common sense says something like: "after a couple months if you are still not over with it something wrong with you"

so there is this force inside which push us to eventually let go of things, but it's not based on reflection, not really based on insights about the nature of ourselves and reality, so we don't necessarily gain much wisdom with this process.
We don't learn to let go, it just happen in a conditioned way.
And the problem is sometimes we can't let go, it just doesn't happen. What now? we never learned how it happen inside, we were never really in control of the process, things just happened but now they don't, what can i do??

And common sense not being the wisest guy around, doesn't have the solution for a whole bunch of things.
Subjectively, some things are okay to let go, some are not. Based on what? Based on who? Based on some notions that we adopted as we grew based on our culture?
These vague notions should control our life now and decide weather we should torture ourselves with some stuff or not?

vinlyn

Oddly enough, with a little time, I can forgive just about anything someone does to me. Where I draw the line on forgiveness is with people who harm society.

RichardH

You have probably all heard some version of this story... A man is in a boat on a misty lake. He sees another boat moving toward him. He calls out but there is no response as the boat keeps moving toward him. He gets angry and yells "hey watch where you are going!!".. but the boat just keeps on coming. He tries to move out of the way but finally the boat crashes into the him.. Furious he looks into the other boat..and it is empty. It is an empty boat being carried along on a current. We are empty boats.. even when we have the deepest sense of agency. That is the basis of forgiveness. Seeing that first-hand quickens forgiveness.. even as the body and mind has to process in it own time. Without seeing through agency, forgiveness is not possible.

This is not a denial of social responsibility. On a social level I am an agent, but within this agent, no agent can be found.

KhmerBuddhist

If a person is slighted, having the capacity to feel empathy or forgiveness is skillful. If one believes in Karma, then why should one question about its Karmic consequences? The fruition of such Karma will be the perpetrator's salvation.

In the human realm, there is societal law, the law that governs what is justice, what is humane. In the Spiritual realm, they have their own set of law. If a person is sentenced for his crime after being proven in court he is guilty, then it could be said that his sentence is meted in the human realm. In the Spiritual realm, it is another matter. A despot that gets off easy in the human realm has to answer to his crime in the spiritual realm. This mindset helps alleviate one from being too attached to justice and move on.

Unlike The Buddha, we could not perceive the origin of a person. Anguilimalla, a villian who'd slain 999 people, though unintentional, nonetheless committed the heinous act. But, The Buddha divined that Anguilimalla had the potential to be saved due to his karmic destiny from the past. Thus, He went and interceded Anguilimalla from committing matricide that would had earned him eternity in Hell.

The relinquishment of evil, or killing, set him off to an Enlightened path. His actions were met with greater success was due to his karmic destiny from the past and not the present. The present, though he killed, could have earned him death penalty. But, it was lessened and his devout practice of the Precepts eventually earned him Arahatship within the same life. The souls he killed had met their karmic salvation.

That is why it is important that before we get angry at another person who did us harm, we must reflect that we must have done something in the past to have earned such pain and anguish in the present. Forgiveness, then, is compassionate. We don't have to know the mysterious workings of Karma, but as Karma is cause and effect, and that no body could sell or donate or throw away his/her own Karma, one can be assured that one inherits one's actions 100%. The only thing stand to be mindful of is one's actions. We are all responsible for our own cause and effect.

karasti

Refusing or making it so you are unable to forgive only hurts you, and the people you are closest to. You harbor anger and other negative feelings. It certainly isn't going to hurt or prove something to the perpetrator. Holding onto negative feelings over any incident only ensures that you are still being victimized. That is something that is popular in the US, being a victim and finding a way to make someone pay for it.

Trying to remember what kind of life someone would have had, to be able to perpetuate such horrible things against other people is sometimes helpful in understanding a larger picture.

I have kids, and I can't tell you how I'd feel if someone purposely harmed them in terms of raping them, or killing them etc. They have been hurt emotionally in the past, by their own father, and forgiving for him for what he's put them through, and 3 years after his death is still putting them through, has been a good practice. It was doing me, and the children, no good to hold onto that. It certainly wasn't proving anything to him. It never did when he was alive, either.

People can, and do forgive their perpetrators for horrible things. Other people choose to hold onto it. I'm guessing those who find a way to forgive are much better for it, and the only limits are the ones you place on yourself.

PrairieGhost

Why do we blame people? I mean, what's the basis for that?

Has anyone examined whether there's a basis for it, or did we just take it for granted there was?

I don't mean why we hold people responsible, or try to deter people from hurting others, those have a practical basis - I mean why do we blame people in our hearts?

federica

The only limits to forgiveness are those we impose ourselves.

federica

This is the monk who stated that, of all the things he feared most, his biggest fear was that he would lose his compassion for the Chinese.

Be careful clicking on this link.
It makes for harrowing reading.

how

I knew a particular monk who eventually became an abbot of a large temple. When someone else vaguely connected to that linage did something horrific, many of the monks were shocked and angry. As I was the bearer of this news, I got to witness how many long term practitioners received this news. Only this one monk, out of many immediately got a tear in his eye and said, "Can you imagine how much pain that person must have been suffering to do such a thing." It was a great teaching of empathy.

Years later this same monk, now abbot, committed his own transgressions and was kicked out.
In the midst of the resulting furor, on a Buddhist web site specific to this Buddhist organization, I recounted this story of how he taught me a little about forgiveness.
You would have thought that I had just posted about the delights of cannibalism from the vitriol that immediately followed.

It is interesting, what we can forgive and what we can't.

federica

For 'interesting', read 'sad'......?

vinlyn

I guess it depends on what you consider forgiveness.

For example, there are a couple of people who have really hurt me. I have no ill will against them. I don't want anything bad to happen to them.

But I also will never forget and I have no desire to associate with them any further.

Telly03

Who is there to forgive? What makes someone different than you? We may have a different outlook on life due to our interpretations of what our senses are feeding us, but we all start at the same ground zero. Somebody may have a chemical imbalance that makes them act differently, but the same potential is in us all. Hitler himself is evidence that the potential exists for such behavior in any human life, so who are we angry with enough to have to contemplate a need for forgiveness? Human life?

I'll forgive myself for being human... there, I think that covers it.

federica

I guess it depends on what you consider forgiveness.

For example, there are a couple of people who have really hurt me. I have no ill will against them. I don't want anything bad to happen to them.

But I also will never forget and I have no desire to associate with them any further.

This is not a bad thing, for those unfamiliar with deeper teachings in Buddhism, this would be covered by the Buddha's teachings on 'not consorting with Fools'.
The description ['Fools'] covers a multitude of sins, but put it this way, if a poker is hot, and it stays hot, you're not going to pick it up more than once. You know better than to do that.

vinlyn

@Federica, in general I agree with you, but I just hesitate to say -- usually -- that someone on the opposite side of things with me are fools...although I like that you say that the term is rather broad.

federica

I know you're always right dear - but when people do hurtful things we cannot term them evil, because that is too harsh a description. It would be apt to say their actions are foolish - and I too have been the "victim" of hurtful actions...

I have a strong suspicion that the 'perpetrator' knew very well that what they were doing was deliberate, had a certain amount of Ego attached, and felt self-righteous about their stance - but knowing them as I do, I truly believe they had a niggle at the back of their mind that was telling them "Really? You think you should do his? Don't you think that's a little selfish and unnecessary?"....but they did it anyway.
That's the action of a foolish person. Someone who goes against conscience.

That's what I meant....

vinlyn

:thumbsup:

Cinorjer

I have to say I come down on the side of @patbb in that I believe the only limits to forgiveness are the ones you impose upon yourself. That is, forgiveness seen as letting go of anger. That doesn't mean you forget what happened, or trust the person not to do it again, or ignore or make excuses for what happened. It means you let go of the anger, that's all.

A person doesn't "earn" forgiveness. This is about you, not them. Yes, suppose someone hurt you and perhaps the people you love. The hurt and anger is as natural as breathing. But can you get past that to forgiveness, and let go of the anger? That, too, is human nature.

Grasshopper

With regard to forgiving the most cruel, despicable behaviour, I think one CAN forgive another's actions (no matter how utterly awful they were) in the sense of understanding that they acted from ignorance. In this way acceptance and some closure can be reached, and a release from the tyranny of negative emotion like hatred or vengeance, can be achieved. I would like to add though that I think it unreasonable and unrealistic to be required to forgive such a person in the sense of embracing them with a joyful heart. That may possibly come later, who knows, but first things first eh!

Cloud

Forgiveness is only limited by our capacity to love others as we love ourselves. The greater our heart the easier it is to forgive, and we can forgive anyone for anything. That doesn't mean to condone or not do anything to correct the situation. The Glorious Heart of Nirvana is like the heart of Jesus, and he exemplifies what it means to love others as ourselves (even our enemies). The Buddha was also like this, and taught a path that we might come to "be" this way.

AllbuddhaBound

That doesn't mean you forget what happened, or trust the person not to do it again, or ignore or make excuses for what happened. It means you let go of the anger, that's all.

@cinorjer

I would add, it does not mean you fail to stop it from happening again. Just ensuring the measures you take are meant to stop the reoccurence and not to punish. Right intention is key.

Exacting revenge on an evil doer, is not conducive to enlightenment.