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The Five Precepts-my sticking points on them
karasti
BreathingMinnesota Moderator
I realize of course that this is something I need to determine, but I figured I'd throw it out there for input I might not have considered. Sometimes someone says something that just strikes you a certain way 
Now, the precepts on stealing, false speech and even intoxicants, I think I understand.
The precept on sexual misconduct, I am a little confused on what constitutes sexual misconduct. I have read in some places that this means sex outside of the intent to procreate, but my husband had a vasectomy, so we aren't having any more children. We don't do anything "out there" I mean no animals or threesomes or anything like that
But there are things that aren't entirely vanilla either, and I wonder where that falls. Are we supposed to succumb to just missionary sexual intercourse or something?
The one I have the real trouble with, is the first one. I know a lot of this is stuff I need to come to on my own, but like I said looking for input. Long story short, I come from many generations of people who survived, and raised their families, by hunting, fishing and gardening. Obviously in this day, it's not *necessary* to hunt, but I find that I personally have far more guilt over supporting factory farms and slaughterhouses than taking the life of an animal to feed my family. Obviously hunting is purposely taking a life. I did not hunt in the past year to see how I felt about it, but I have a much harder time going to the store and buying meat. At this point, going strict vegetarian is very unlikely because of our location (if that's important I can elaborate, but too much to include now) and family dynamics. Is it enough for me to try to do what I think is best? Or do I need to look at getting over my problems in supporting farmed meat, so that I'm not killing the animal myself?
Also, fishing is the other part of that. I have a harder time using live bait, than I do catching and eating the fish. We fish year round here (even in the winter) and it sustains us quite a bit. But, it means to be successful you have to use what amount to as baby fish (or worms or leeches) to catch the bigger, edible fish, and to use them for bait ensures their death once you attach them to a hook. Fishing is something I have done with my dad since I was a little girl, we do it off and on all year, and it's a great bonding time for us. Not to say we don't bond in other ways, but it's a time we really enjoy together, which is another of the sticking points. I think it would be much harder for me to 100% quit fishing than it would be to switch to eating farmed meats.
When I think about taking the precepts, and I think about these sticking points, I feel like I'd be lying to myself to make those promises, which is mostly why I haven't done it yet. Thoughts? I know it's about intention and doing the best you can, but I really don't know how to figure out which route is best.
Now, the precepts on stealing, false speech and even intoxicants, I think I understand.
The precept on sexual misconduct, I am a little confused on what constitutes sexual misconduct. I have read in some places that this means sex outside of the intent to procreate, but my husband had a vasectomy, so we aren't having any more children. We don't do anything "out there" I mean no animals or threesomes or anything like that
But there are things that aren't entirely vanilla either, and I wonder where that falls. Are we supposed to succumb to just missionary sexual intercourse or something? The one I have the real trouble with, is the first one. I know a lot of this is stuff I need to come to on my own, but like I said looking for input. Long story short, I come from many generations of people who survived, and raised their families, by hunting, fishing and gardening. Obviously in this day, it's not *necessary* to hunt, but I find that I personally have far more guilt over supporting factory farms and slaughterhouses than taking the life of an animal to feed my family. Obviously hunting is purposely taking a life. I did not hunt in the past year to see how I felt about it, but I have a much harder time going to the store and buying meat. At this point, going strict vegetarian is very unlikely because of our location (if that's important I can elaborate, but too much to include now) and family dynamics. Is it enough for me to try to do what I think is best? Or do I need to look at getting over my problems in supporting farmed meat, so that I'm not killing the animal myself?
Also, fishing is the other part of that. I have a harder time using live bait, than I do catching and eating the fish. We fish year round here (even in the winter) and it sustains us quite a bit. But, it means to be successful you have to use what amount to as baby fish (or worms or leeches) to catch the bigger, edible fish, and to use them for bait ensures their death once you attach them to a hook. Fishing is something I have done with my dad since I was a little girl, we do it off and on all year, and it's a great bonding time for us. Not to say we don't bond in other ways, but it's a time we really enjoy together, which is another of the sticking points. I think it would be much harder for me to 100% quit fishing than it would be to switch to eating farmed meats.
When I think about taking the precepts, and I think about these sticking points, I feel like I'd be lying to myself to make those promises, which is mostly why I haven't done it yet. Thoughts? I know it's about intention and doing the best you can, but I really don't know how to figure out which route is best.
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There was a story in one of the scriptures in which the Buddha said that to deny a fisherman his livelihood would cause more suffering (to him and his family, and perhaps his village) than it would avoid. So until he could find himself another livelihood, it was ok for him to continue fishing. I think the important thing is mindfulness. Don't take more than you need. The Dalai Lama's oldest brother was a reincarnate lama, and he took hunters with him on a caravan to Lhasa, to get fresh meat for those in the caravan. He didn't think twice about it. His parents had a farm and routinely slaughtered animals for the family to eat. Life is full of compromises. Do what you can do now, and as your practice progresses, you may find that over time, you'll be naturally motivated to change your habits. Or...not. But you can practice not killing in other ways, by letting trapped insects in the house go free, and so forth.
So refrain from killing sentient beings? Most Buddhists in the world are not vegetarians, including many monks. Buddha was not a vegetarian, and he was the one who laid down the precepts. Yet we should refrain from killing, and who can argue with that? The precept is saying a callous disregard for life causes suffering for you and others. It's not some grand cosmic statement about how death is evil and life everywhere must be preserved at any cost.
And as @Dakini points out, sexual misconduct is sexual behavior that hurts people. Unlike sin based religions, we Buddhists don't consider sex to be dirty or sinful or bad unless it's between a God sanctioned couple for the purposes of popping out more true believers. That hurting includes taking advantage of people or cheating. So if you and your significant other want to get freaky in the privacy of your own bedroom, you have Buddha's blessing.
See, any set of hard and fast rules will have loopholes so people can justify their behavior, because that's how people are. Life offers an infinite variety of situations and no list of rules can cover them all. If you say sex should only be between a man and wife and for the purposes of procreation, then the rule is saying raping the wife is OK, because hey, the rules are still being followed. See how that works?
It's harder, being forced to follow the spirit instead of the letter of the law. Being told you are responsible for deciding what is moral instead of pointing to some list of rules. It's also liberating, being treated as a responsible adult who can make these decisions.
The reflection and soul-searching you're doing is good. You've developed a mindfulness practice. There are many other areas of life in which you can practice ahimsa--not harming. You could also explore groceries and coops that only buy free-range meat of animals that were allowed to live a fairly normal healthy life before reaching the meat section of the grocery. We even had a rancher and professional butcher as a member, who was dedicated to inventing the most humane method possible of killing the animals before butchering them. If it helps you resolve your quandary, these are things you could research about meat sources in your area. Local coops and Whole Foods are a good place to start.
I feel like you don't have to undertake any of them if you don't want to, but I am beginning to wonder how open to interpretation they are. The drinking one for example - I love a cold beer. I don't drink to the point of intoxication anymore (I have a three drink cap, four if I'm at a party or at dinner or something) but that's just my interpretation of intoxication... I'm a little tipsy but not rolling around hammered, however, I wouldn't be able to drive a car and in the eyes of the law I would be considered to be intoxicated.
I'm definitely wondering if they are open to interpretation, and if they are, what the line is.
And you accept your own consequences.
If you're tipsy, but "wouldn't be able to drive a car and in the eyes of the law would be considered intoxicated" then you'd be under the influence. That is to say, you would be subject to the influence of something capable of altering how your perception is working.
The law doesn't just grab a figure and double it.
The law works on a principle of knowledge of Health & Safety, and considers the Risk factor.
The definition of Risk, in Law is 'Probability Multiplied by Severity'.
If you go paddling in 3" of water, the probability of drowning ('severity') is much lower than if you went swimming in deeper waters in a choppy sea.
You may think you're completely in control of your faculties, but the Law, in conjunction with research and established knowledge of the effect of alcohol on the system, sees it differently.
The best way of determining your interpretation of how sober you actually are - is to not drink.
Then, you know exactly how sober you are.
The uncertainty arises after one single drink.
Then, it's arguable.
I dislike arguing with myself, I usually lose....
And you accept your own consequences.
This is for all the precepts. It all depends on what you want to get out of it. If you use Buddhism as a way to make life a bit less hard, well, maybe you don't really care about the precepts. And if that's the way you want to go, that's the way you can go. But personally I would never in any way advice anyone to not practice the precepts, especially the first four, but the fifth comes close.
If you are sincere about Buddhism, you have to follow them. I don't know about those say you don't, or on what they support it, but it's evident from the word of the Buddha that right virtue is just nescessary. And it's also logical; have good virtue for a considerable amount of time, you have zero guilt. Imagine that. ZERO guilt, whatsoever. Just this brings a lot of joy alone. And you have the other practices on top of that to make you even more peaceful. If there is guilt (even subconscious), meditation will not take off.
So, if you really want to get somewhere, you will have to follow the precepts. I'm quite sure you can find some sort of way to incorporate them if you really, really want to. It can not be 100% impossible to not kill animals. And if you feel guilty about buying meat: Surely you can buy potatoes or rice or whatever? Or drive far out a few times a year to buy canned food. You can even grow your own food if that's the only way.
Every effort needed is totally worth keeping the precepts.
Now I'm not saying the precepts are hard and set in stone rules, but that's just a disclaimer for some very extreme cases. The thing about sex being for procreation only is by the way plain wrong.
I just meant to illustrate the different interpretations of intoxicated. The law says what it does for very good reason, but I can drink to the point where I wouldn't be able to drive a car, but I wouldn't be so impaired that I couldn't make the desicion to call a cab, I wouldn't be so impaired that I'd cause harm to myself or anyone around me and I wouldn't drink to the point that I couldn't behave appropriately.
So yes, I'd be intoxicated but I wouldn't be out of control. I understand that my reactions would be delayed and I wouldn't have control of the things necessary to drive for example, but I don't need those things if I'm just sat having dinner with friends. It's ok that I wouldn't be able to drive because I don't have to drive.
Well, I can't actually drive anyway so the point is null but I'm just using the example to illustrate my position. I may not be in complete control of all my faculties, but I'm not hurting myself or anyone else so I don't really see that as a problem. I don't need the remote control if I'm not watching tv.
I didn't drink for a year once, and that was fine, but I don't see that me drinking a few beers is causing anybody any harm, so I don't see why I shouldn't.
I used to be a really, really heavy drinker. Thankfully, alcoholism didn't take hold so I can still enjoy a life that includes a few beers now and then because I learned moderation. The only reason I'd give that up is because I'm either harming myself or someone else, or because the precepts are set in stone and I'd rather live my life the way the Buddha recommended than the way my little mind thinks is right.
It's just that he said "I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."
If I'm not drinking to the point of carelessness I don't know that I've broken the precept.
Thanks for the advice, guys, you've definitely given me something to think about.
@Sabre thanks for the clarification. I'm married so I don't really worry about that one
I admire your effort to not drink too much, that's great and a very good practice, also very Buddhist to do. But the Buddha would not allow even a sip.
It also has other reasons. Drinking alcohol is often a way getting away from our problems a bit. And if it's not that, it's sensual indulgence, something not really Buddhist per se.
I know hearing this may sound a bit over the top, ridiculous even. But it's true. I know because I've been on and off with the 5th precept for quite some time before. But not drinking is just so much better.
Also, this is not to make you feel guilty. In fact that's why I think the 5th precept is on another level than the other 4. It's not immoral to drink. It's just not wise. While the others are immoral. So drinking mainly works towards unmindfulness, while the others mainly work towards guilt. In a way that's another dimension, but they are all important really.
Hope you understand I'm not trying to put you right. Just my perspective and what I've learned!
Mucha Metta,
Sabre
What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. Like, a LOT of sense
And I think you're right. I'll give up the booze and keep the precepts to the best of my understanding of them and get a little more serious about my Buddhist practice. Many thanks for your help and for sharing your experiences, you've done me a great service.
I have to admit that I am rather hard-nosed about the Precepts, because I see them as one of the 3 pillars of Buddhism, and something that -- just as much as anything else in Buddhism -- appear to have come directly from Buddha.
I think the lax attitude many have about the 5 Precepts is a reaction against their previous religion...usually Christianity...where they are "commanded" to not do something. And as humans, we don't like being commanded to do anything. But in reality, Christians may talk a lot about the "commandments", but most don't obey them as something they absolutely must do, and to one degree or another break them as they want, and then they justify their actions.
To me it's quite simple. If you want to be a thorough (I chose that word carefully) Christian, you will follow the 10 Commandments. If you want to be a thorough Buddhist, you will follow the 5 Precepts. However, most of us -- whether Christian or Buddhist -- will be less than thorough Christians or Buddhists.
In some of the Precepts there is some room for interpretation, but far less than some of us pretend there is. That's just another game we play with the Precepts.
I want to get closer to the way the monks and nuns live (without actually being a nun) not further away.
And I agree, that we pretend that there is more leeway than there really is for whatever reason. I still don't think it's a case of black and white "you must do this" and that it still comes down to personal choice, but I feel that my choices and my approach to the precepts has been more about following my view than that of the Buddha. Which doesn't really work for me because I want less me and more Buddha
But, I read the Precept against intoxicating beverages or drugs differently than you are reading it (and I do realize that it's worded differently in different sources). I don't read it as you can go ahead an drink as much as you want until you become intoxicated, the read it as don't drink beverages or take drugs which can cause heedlessness, because when you're taking drugs or drinking, your behavior does change very quickly, and "you" don't always know when you have crossed the line that will lead you to break the other Precepts. The best example being inappropriate/careless speech.
I'm very familiar with my own drinking patterns, and know my limits. I had to become aware of them because I was at serious risk for alcoholism, and had to stop drinking altogether at one point.
I stopped drinking then simply because my life was at risk.
To stop drinking now would be as a way to get more serious about my Buddhist practice, and to start letting go of my positions and opinions and get closer to the views of the Buddha. While I don't think drinking in moderation is in any way wrong or bad, I do feel that for me personally, trying to live a life closer to that of the Buddha, this is a small step on the way to practicing humility. To recognize that I don't know, and that it would be wise to follow the guidance of the Buddha.
I can already warn you that it'll be though at times, especially in circumstances where everybody is drinking and thinks it is strange if you don't. That's why I struggled with it for quite some time. So it'll be a challenge, but it's totally worth it. (or maybe for you it will be easy?? every mind is different in this aspect) Every beer less, is one more chance to be mindful and one small change in the mind.
And it's very peaceful and happy not to have to 'rely' on drinking a beer to feel comfortable.
Metta!
Sabre
About the meat, we live in a climate that of course isn't as remote but the climate itselt is not that different from Tibet. It can be -50F here in the winter, and we have snow on the ground from sometimes October to May. Our growing season is mid June to early September. We do have a garden, and we grow whatever we can preserve and store to use during the winter. But, I also have 3 growing children who cannot live on rice and potatoes, including one child who is a diabetic who follows a diet based on the GI index, so potatoes and rice are out except in small amounts, and rare occasion. Obviously, i am aware that if I decided to be a vegetarian or vegan, of course I could do it. The ease of which it can be done though, is difficult. Canned vegetables might keep you alive but their nutritional content is about zero. I can't live that way. And even if I drive an hour to buy groceries, the quality in the winter is very bad. It's very hard to take food grown in tropical states/countries, and ship them to an area that is having a week of -40F temperatures. The food does not arrive in a consumable condition, it often freezes, and then turns to mush. The variety of what we have available because of where we live is pretty limited. Could I survive on rice/beans/apples for 7-8 months a year? Sure, but I wouldn't be very healthy in doing so. Plus, while I might be interested in being a Buddhist, and my kids are curious, my husband is not. It is not financially feasible to make different meals to satisfy the 5 people who live in our house. Because of the medical issues our youngest faces, we all adopted the GI diet he follows, for the most part, which includes quite a bit of protein because it stabilizes his blood glucose.
I think as long as I refrain from judgement of others people's choices I will be ok. That's my biggest fear in this regard as I am prone to arrogance, but there will always be alcohol in my home for those who want to drink it and I think that will serve as a good reminder for me.
That is really freakin cold :buck:
On the vegetarian thing... I tried it once, I wasn't very healthy, I also knew other vegetarians who got sick with anemia and things like that. I'm not saying being vegetarian is a bad thing, but it can be pretty expensive and without a lot of care and planning possibly unhealthy. I know that lost of monks aren't vegetarian, and I'm ok following their example.
I'd go so far to say that if one had to choose between keeping the precepts or doing meditation, go for the precepts. Of course, taking the precepts also requires a bit of mindfulness, to see when the mind gets in certain states. So combined with some meditation will make it a bit easier, but this is mainly to emphasize the importance of the precepts.
I would never speak for the Buddha, but I wouldn't be surprised if something pointing to this is somewhere in the texts. But of course, to really get the advantage of Buddhism, we need the entire 8-fold path.
This is a nice video.
Metta!
Sabre
In a way Buddhism is all about getting out of our comfort zone. Only to find what we actually thought was comfortable, wasn't that comfortable at all. A great practice to start to see this is the precepts.
Good luck
Metta!
Sabre
If you really can find no way out, buy your meat instead of killing animals yourself. This may feel hypocritical, I know. It's may not be the ideal way out. But I think it's the best, because that way you will be able to keep the precept of not killing or hurting living beings.
Why do I advice this? The action of killing has much bigger impact on the mind than buying already killed meat. In Buddhism it's about intention. If you hunt and kill, you have an intention to kill, nomatter why you do it or what other intentions are involved. This intention to kill touches the mind in a negative way. If you buy meat, your main intention is to feed your family. In this case your intention was good, because it was to feed in the best way possible considering environment and all. How the meat got in the store does not directly have to do with your intention.
I also buy meat from time to time (not that often, I prefer veg.), but it's not against the precept, because it is not with the intention of hurting a being. Also remember that Tibetan monks eat quite a lot of meat, or so I've heard.
This whole intention business also explains why it is not against the precepts to accidentally step on an ant. It was not your intention to kill him/her, so it's not a bad action, not bad karma. (It's Jainism where it would be considered bad karma)
I hope this makes a bit of sense to you.
Metta!
Sabre
I take back what I said earlier, that it is possible to live without meat if you want to. I did not know the situation when I said that and that made me overlook such situations. But, the Buddha also ate meat, so there you go. Even enlightened ones eat meat. But they would never kill.
I hope you and your family have a lot of happy times around the kitchen table.
Metta!
Sabre
For @karasti
Providing for mother and father's support
And cherishing family,
And ways of work that harm no being, *
These are the highest blessings.
*(so not being a butcher etc)
For @RebeccaS
Steadfast in restraint, and shunning evil ways,
Avoiding intoxicants that dull the mind,
And heedfulness in all things that arise.
These are the highest blessings.
(from an alternative version of http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soni/wheel254.html)
Metta!
Sabre
To each his own of course, but vegetarianism can be very yummy, completely easy and extremely healthy.
It's just a matter of which protein you choose to have with dinner.
Rule #1 of not-the-meat is that it needs to be well-seasoned, and cooked to a texture that is pleasing (same rules as meat). Too often tofu is served limp and tasteless (which any meat will be, too, if you don't cook it right).
For maximum flavor, tofu should be cooked hot, long enough (longer makes it more meaty) and with plenty of flavoring (salt, pepper, vegemite, soy sauce, whatever trips your trigger). Most non-vegetarians (and many vegetarians!) prefer extra-firm tofu (not the soft, slippery stuff), cooked long enough that it gains even more texture, in my experience. You can grill it, bake it, fry it, and deep-fry it to firm it up (and infuse it with your spices).
Seitan/wheat gluten is even more meatlike out of the package--often already brined, and nicely textured. In lots of dishes (tacos, lasagna), you can barely tell it's not meat.
If you really want the easy life, find an Adventist Book Center (ABC) -- they carry all the delicious Adventists "meats" like Fri-Chik, Choplets, Skallops, Big Franks, etc. Preseasoned, and packed in various lovely gravies. My carnivorous family begs for them.
You can make homemade wheat gluten in nice big hunks (I went to a Taiwanese Buddhist gathering which featured a largish "pork" piece which turned out to be gluten!) and season it yourself--way cheaper than meat. My Dad had the master touch--he'd brine his for a few days in water, onion, garlic and Marmite before using--incredible.
You don't have to have "meaty" stuff for the protein (you can have nuts, hummus, eggs, cheese and so forth instead), but I generally prefer at least something meatyish with most meals.
Anyway I'm drooling now, so had better stop
Sometimes, there are amazing blessings in living in a place where most people live simple lives. Sometimes, it makes things much more difficult! Everything in our town shuts down at 7. If you have to wait for 2 cars before you can turn onto a road, that's considered "traffic." I can drive into town (we live out of the main town here) at 7am and not see a single car. While some times I miss the options living in the city brought, I wouldn't trade the peace and quiet for anything. I can sit on my back deck and meditate without hearing a sound from another person for several hours. I love it. But it does have it's challenges.
At the least, most stores that carry tofu will carry an extra-firm one. Then it's just a matter of baking, grilling or frying it long enough to get some flavor and extra firmness in there. If you marinate it for a few hours, even better!
I cut my block roughly in half to make a big slab, which I then cover with salt, seasonings and garlic, and bake longside my husband's fish, in olive oil, for example, usually about 20 -25 minutes.
A super-fast approach is to cube it, than fry it up in oil and any spices you like. Olive oil, basil, oregano, salt and pepper make a nice Italian-fu; peanut oil, soy sauce and vinegar/lemon juice make a nice Chinese topping, etc. As long as you don't burn it, you can't really overcook. It will just keep getting chewier and tastier until you're ready to eat (add more liquid if it's getting too dry).
The Chinese make tofu in textures ranging from soft, slippery egg white to rubber tire (if you go to a Chinese market, they'll have these big, brown sheets hanging outside the stalls--that's the rubber-tire-fu
I don't know if you can get mail-order where you live, but Small Planet Organic Tofu ships their 'fu - here's their least expensive variety box of variously flavored goodies:
http://www.smallplanettofu.com/new/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:tofu-phils-variety-box&catid=4:store&Itemid=13
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Paneer-(Indian-Cheese)
Another Adventist trick (which I believe is really a South American trick, though I see Indian cooking uses it, too) is to make nut pastes--my grandma used a lot of cashew paste. It's fantastic added to gravies, for example, instead of beef or chicken drippings.
Soak cashews in warm water for 10 minutes, drain, and grind to a smooth paste in a food processor.
Anyhow, I know there are options there. Because of where I live, a lot of those options aren't readily available to me when I do my grocery shopping. I eat almost entirely whole foods in their natural form. I don't like to eat processed foods at all, and I limit them pretty heavily. My diet is about 90% fruit, veggies and meat/fish/eggs, and 10% grains/other stuff, mostly quinoa, yogurt, and wild rice. In the winter that shifts because of the fruits and veggies being hard to get here, but I also eat far fewer calories in the winter. Grains just overall do not do good things to my body, and neither does dairy.
I'm a city kid and as much as I'd love to be able to move to the stix there are just too many insects. I'd have to pave a couple of acres or something
So yeah, I'm super jealous
I wanted to clarify though, that the whole family follows the same diet of what I listed, so deviating greatly from it means a much more expensive grocery bill and much time spent planning for, shopping for and cooking different meals. Right now, what we do works best for all of us and I don't plan to deviate from it much. In the future, we'll see what comes about. Living in the sticks has it's pros, and cons. Part of the cons is in how much stuff costs. Milk is $5.79 a gallon here (normal milk, Organic milk is about $4.50 per half gallon). Everything else costs just as exponentially as much as it does in most other places. We pay more than twice what it costs to buy groceries in the city that is 2 hours from us.
Well--it *is* a pygmy goat, this one. Probably only produces pygmy-amounts of milk. But still.
and the above picture is one of the cutest friggen things I have ever seen. Ha!