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Could nationalism ever be a force for good?
Zayl
Veteran
If, for example, the motivation and dedication and sheer influence that these ultra-nationalistic countries demonstrated were say, diverted away from other nations, and focused on (for example) space exploration, medical research, and a whole host of other things. Do you, as a person and not a Buddhist (else I would have posted this elsewhere) believe this is a viable way to govern people? And to be clear, I refer to nationalism as having a strong and immovable pride in where one has come from, or where one resides. If this definition was broadened to Humanity itself, where could the harm come from?
Just some musings, don't pay terrible attention to it.
Just some musings, don't pay terrible attention to it.
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... so I guess it's a very slippery slope. Like everything else.
Seconded.
Caution: bad language.
I think the same would probably be true of the type of nationalism you wonder about. It may start out with good intentions but would inevitably be corrupted.
I think we have to be a little careful here that there's a tendency among many of the people in our forum to be anti-government.
nationalism looks like falling off the waggon.
When people identify too strongly as a group, they often become vulnerable to irrational mob mentality which makes them easier to subjugate and control. They also become blind to the humanity of others who look different, speak a different language, worship a different God, or simply exist on the wrong side of an imaginary line on a map.
Meanwhile, on this planet, lets enjoy the stability created by tension amongst nations: it is all we have.
I remember the days when as Dutch we took pride in being tolerant towards people of any political and religious conviction and we would brag about the number of political refugees we welcomed inside our borders.
I’m sure the American notion of “being a good American” includes being a good person.
On the other hand, as my Zen teacher once observed, "Without ego, nothing gets done."
IMO The importance of that saying is to remind die hard zennists that attempting to reject ego actually aids in solidifying it whereas Zen only recommends its adherents to stop feeding it..
With or without the Ego, the universe continues to unfold. The difference with the absence of Ego is that what gets done is not primarily in aid of the self over others. What gets done is not an expression of self compared with others.
Nationalism is just the co ordinating of identity and seems to have all the suffering potential of a poisonous snake to me.
Saying that Nationalism is good is like saying it's smarter to grab a snake by the tail than it's head, which is true in only the most limited sense because the wisest thing would be to have never grabbed the snake at all.
The whole Nazi agenda (to make right the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles, renew the expansionist foreign policy of pre-WW1 Germany, cultivate the dominance of a master race etc) was wrapped up in ultra-nationalist dogma. Nationalism was what fuelled their whole operation
Pehaps looking for a silver lining in the Third Reich is a bit of a waste of time!
As for nationalism as a whole, I feel like nationalism (pride for your state, often also linked with notions of racial and religious identity) is probably a wholly bad thing. I've read some interesting stuff by Eric Hobsbawm on the topic. Mostly it seems to me that there are enough divisions between people already, nationalism just serves to further lessen our sense of perspective. Like Sagan explains in his Long Perspective spiel, we're all human and fighting over miniature scraps of territory because of nationalistic divergences is a waste of our collective energy. Just look at the recent example of the Balkan states like Serbia and Croatia. Nationalism seems too often to be an ideology of difference; nation states defining themselves through the 'otherization' of fellow states
“'I love it because it is mine.' This is the language of identity. Properly translated, this means: I do not love it, I love me.” ~Leon Wieseltier, Against Identity
"The love of one’s country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?" ~Pablo Casals, Joys and Sorrows
I just want to make clear that I'm not trying to excuse the Nazi Party for anything they did or gloss over their atrocities. This whole thread is pretty much looking for a silver lining in one of the most problematic ideologies we humans have, so I went ahead and confirmed Godwin's Law.
Yes, the Nazis were anti-anyone-who's-not-Aryan and faced an enormous defeat in WW2. But what I was referring to was the industrial capability and economic power they had developed from the ashes of WW1. So "good" in terms of the economy and social well-being (for those of the "pure race", mind you).
As we saw (and can still see in some extreme political groups), not good in many other ways.
I don't know if this is a 'Godwin's Law' situation, the thread is at least about nationalism! They deserved a mention I reckon
what about the rest of the world?
But... But. In the end, as a species, that strength is there. If we could learn to look past political borders, the sheer motivation nationalistic countries can inspire, if spread to the entire human race, under one goal... just imagine the possibilities. Someone mentioned a benevolent dictatorship. But what about a benevolent monarchy? or a benevolent dynasty? I believe that as a species, we respond better under a determined rule. But if that rule had the honest and truly good intentions of humanity as a whole on their platform, things would be vastly different. Imagine, instead of a nation devoting its resources to conquering another nation, instead using that energy, focus, and solidarity to make an honest go of exploring space, or overcoming any other obstacle.
What can I say, I'm an idealist. One that believes that the true strength of humanity is something that is unconquerable. I only wish we had more forceful, determined, and benevolent leaders.
You can love, respect the community your from, and the country your living in, as long as you stay open and friendly to strangers, for we must never lose our good manners (Right actions, Understanding, right thought, speech).
However nationalism on the other hand always has some racial element lurking in the background that seeks to divide people. Nationalism also tends to lead to war!
But concerning the Dharma, Nationalism is just another illusionary attachment, that has no true selfhood and so is dependant on the rising of conditions and elements.
Ask yourself, how many countries and ancient cultures have disappeared from the face of the earth, no longer existing today?
The Ancient Britons, the Aztecs, The Trojans, the Romans and countless other tribes of people have disappeared forever, even after being around for a thousand years or more.
Perhaps one day my own country and culture (British) will one day not exist.
So nothing is permanent or fixed, so nationalism is kind of absurd when you really meditate upon it!
were to the Scots after defeating them.
How many atrocities have been committed in the name
of Nationalism?
The first precept doesn't say some forms of murder are better than others.
George Orwell
He was a paranoid sociopath.
Vietnam has a booming economy. Poverty is declining rapidly. It seems like they are having success and it's a great place to travel.
I would imagine that dissidence is delt with harshly and most people keep their heads down and keep working since they can benefit from their efforts. Own businesses and homes and such.
Political stability is very important for both of those countries right now, since they have had so much war to recover from.
After looking more closely into it, I learned that, in fact, the Laos communist government together with the Vietnamese army have been accused of killing 100,000 Hmong people between 1975 and 1996. So if wiki is to be believed on this it lends support to @TheEccentric 's claim that communism only ends up badly.
Things are settled in the region for the time being, and hopefully stay that way but who knows?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/02/vietnam-police-buddhist-monks-nuns