Spiritual Narcissism.

Citta

From Spiritual Narcissism by Thannisaro Bhikkhu.
' The issue of Narcissism in the clinical sense is one that is increasing recognized in may areas of life.
Basically the narcissist is unable to relate to anything outside their own cognitive sphere. Instead all that arises is seen as an extension of their own ego.
Buddhist sanghas are not immune to narcissists. The sad fact is the narcissist may well have a genuine interest in Dhamma..but there will always be a barrier to the arising of real understanding in that all Buddhist endeavour will tend to reinforce the ego sense of the narcissist who will typically see this reinforcement as evidence of their insight.
Some of the signs to be aware of are;
Self-referencing. No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view, and all discussions will see them return to themselves as the focus of their own interest.
A particularly strong need for affirmation. The narcissist will need a constant stream of positive attention and will develop strategies to ensure this , ignoring the normal flow of mutual regard.
Delusions of grandeur. A narcissist will frequently see themselves as above the common herd, for which they feel nothing but pity. This in their own eyes proves the depth of their compassion .'

Any thoughts ?

federica

None whatsoever.

Citta

Thats because you are not a narcissist federica..I have enough of the narcissist about me for the article to give me pause.

karasti

I think there are some important differences in how narcissism is culturally defined, most important being that it causes problems with relationships because of such an inability to have empathy and see the world from other points of view. I think the above can be a little misleading, especially the first part. Most human beings have a tendency to look at an issue and then discuss it from their experience. That is totally normal and does not mean they are incapable of looking at it from other points of view. It is simply how we converse. We do not converse in a way that says we are seeing something from another point of view, even though we most certainly can (and often do) think about and see it from other points of view. People who are actually narcissist (and not in talking from a DSM point of view) are often people who use others, who only keep others in their life who feed their self-admiration, bragging and exaggerating, and being unable, or unwilling to feel remorse and gratitude. So while what is mentioned above is certainly part of narcissism and I think a lot of people including myself can see parts of ourselves in there, and it's good to be aware of that, I don't think you can look at solely the few points above and make a judgement that yourself (or anyone else) is actually narcissistic based on that.

Also it's worth keeping in mind that when a person is just sharing experiences or thoughts or feelings or their method of doing something, other people can interpret it as bragging when it is not. A kid can say "Yay! I hit a home run!" and be happy about their achievement without bragging. Just because another kid might be unhappy that they didn't hit a home run doesn't make the kid a braggart for being glad he did. There is a definite difference. Braggarts do so in order to hold themselves above others and to prove that they are better. That intention is important, I think.

Sabre

No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view

I think in a way this can also be a good thing. For me, some people speak too much in general terms, in theories or try to speak for others, never showing their 'inner world'.

Citta

I note that Ven Thanissaro uses the word 'entirely' Sabre.

how

This is something that I fear for myself.

fivebells

Interesting, @Citta. Could you point me to the full essay? I'm having trouble finding it.

Citta

karasti said:

I think there are some important differences in how narcissism is culturally defined, most important being that it causes problems with relationships because of such an inability to have empathy and see the world from other points of view. I think the above can be a little misleading, especially the first part. Most human beings have a tendency to look at an issue and then discuss it from their experience. That is totally normal and does not mean they are incapable of looking at it from other points of view. It is simply how we converse. We do not converse in a way that says we are seeing something from another point of view, even though we most certainly can (and often do) think about and see it from other points of view. People who are actually narcissist (and not in talking from a DSM point of view) are often people who use others, who only keep others in their life who feed their self-admiration, bragging and exaggerating, and being unable, or unwilling to feel remorse and gratitude. So while what is mentioned above is certainly part of narcissism and I think a lot of people including myself can see parts of ourselves in there, and it's good to be aware of that, I don't think you can look at solely the few points above and make a judgement that yourself (or anyone else) is actually narcissistic based on that.

Also it's worth keeping in mind that when a person is just sharing experiences or thoughts or feelings or their method of doing something, other people can interpret it as bragging when it is not. A kid can say "Yay! I hit a home run!" and be happy about their achievement without bragging. Just because another kid might be unhappy that they didn't hit a home run doesn't make the kid a braggart for being glad he did. There is a definite difference. Braggarts do so in order to hold themselves above others and to prove that they are better. That intention is important, I think.

I dont think that Ven Thanissaro was talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder karasti.
But I think he was talking of experience of those do find it difficult to take themselves out of the picture in discussion.

Citta

fivebells said:

Interesting, @Citta. Could you point me to the full essay? I'm having trouble finding it.

Its not online fivebells ( at least to my knowledge ) its in a piece he did for a University Buddhist Society mag...

karasti

I know, but the points I made were about narcissism in general, not DMS personality disorder, like I said. It's more than just the couple of points that were made.

seeker242

Sabre said:

No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view

I think in a way this can also be a good thing. For me, some people speak too much in general terms, in theories or try to speak for others, never showing their 'inner world'.

It can also be a good thing when "their world view" is in alignment with the Buddha's world view. In other words, when "their world view" really is equal to "right view". If that is the case, then sticking to it is a good thing! But if that is the case, then of course they could not be called narcissistic!

However, I think it would be possible for some people to make the mistake of thinking that the person is sticking to "their word view" when all they are doing is expousing the Buddha's view of what is "right view" and "wrong view". In other words, they mistake it as the person's "personal world view" when it is really the "Buddha's world view".

Citta

Sure. ( in reply to karasti ).

seeker242

Sure! People's perceptions of others are always correct and never flawed!

Citta

seeker242 said:

Sure! People's perceptions of others are always correct and never flawed!

I dont understand the point you are making. No one has argued that the pov of others is always wrong or never wrong.

fivebells

Thanks, @Citta. Hmm, the Manchester University Buddhist Society?

seeker242

Sorry, I thought you were replying to me! My point was that just because someone believes that another person is sticking to "their own view", does not necessarily mean they are.

Citta

_/\_

karasti

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing to look at and to keep in mind for sure. I just think that it's worth also keeping in mind that to some degree it's normal and for it really to start to lean to narcissism more needs to be present, particularly a superior attitude. I guess it just reminded me a bit of commercials on tv that highlight a couple of symptoms of various things, sending people running to the doctor asking for treatment for something they don't even have because the things listed can describe pretty much anyone.

Sabre

Citta said:

I note that Ven Thanissaro uses the word 'entirely' Sabre.

I see the point he makes, but I don't belief in words as "entirely" in this context. I think this "narcissism" is not a full time thing, but something that comes up. For some a lot, for some a little, some maybe not. Calling someone a narcissist is similar to calling somebody a criminal. Because they committed a crime, are they to be labelled in such a way? Better say "somebody who committed a crime", I think.

Either way, my point: Sometimes a personal perspective can be very helpful. In the case of this essay, at least the part you quoted speaks of others only and what their faults are. While in a sense it may be true, I'm not too fond of such texts. I wish the author would have spoken more in a personal perspective, what he experienced, what to do about it, etc. When I explain things to people (not just Buddhist things but in general) I try always to put this personal perspective in there.

Also I don't know why it is ever a sad fact people are interested in Buddhism. But perhaps I'm just being faultfinding today.

Citta

So maybe the post was not useful to you Sabre. But it was something that I found interesting.Is English perhaps not your first language ? " The sad fact " reference suggests to me that it might not be...he is making a wry joke.

Sabre

Think so. But these were just my thoughts anyway. I like to take the sharp edges off things.

Citta

He is saying that there is poignancy in the fact one's genuine interest might be thwarted by one's need to always be centre stage and holding a ' full cup '.
Not merely that one speaks from ones own experience..which can indeed be useful.

taiyaki

The longer I am on this path the more and more I see the self-deception in my practice and view.

And it wasn't clear in the beginning. I was just trying to grasp for some air.

But once you have space, once you have a good breath of okayness.

Then these qualities pop up.

They result because we have no maitri towards ourselves.

In a way the whole path deals with this tendency. The tendency to focus on our narrow reference point.

Anyways thats what came up.

Nevermind

I don't know what spiritual narcissism is all about, and I don't need to know, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. When I'm right about something I know it. But anyway, enough about me. What do you think of me?

poptart

Nevermind said:

But anyway, enough about me. What do you think of me?

Beat me to it!

Sabre

Nevermind said:

I don't know what spiritual narcissism is all about, and I don't need to know, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. When I'm right about something I know it. But anyway, enough about me. What do you think of me?

Florian

I thought narcissism was the very thing that we are all owning up to and trying to abandon, not a condition reserved only for those people who seem to us to speak from their own perspective more often than some others who seem to us to do it less. This is assuming we have any idea at all of whether they are speaking from their own perspective or not. They may be cherry-picking idiosyncratic quotations in support of their self-interested view in order to appear disinterested, or regurgitating someone else's experiences in order to appear to be speaking from knowledge.

And then there is the regular advice that we should speak from our own experience. This is going to be tricky to do if we fear being branded self-centered.

The article may be correct in every way, but the author seems to be complaining about what the Buddha was complaining about.

Just as long as we don't imagine we can always tell who is being narcististic and who isn't we should be okay. Narcissism is a motive, not an action.

The Buddha hardly spoke about anyone else.

Citta

Just a guess, but I doubt that any Theravadin Bhikkhu would teach anything that departed radically from the Buddha's teaching...at least the teachings as recorded in the Pali Canon.
I think the point is and was to reflect on our OWN interactions, that was certainly the effect it had on me.
I think many of us harbour our own wee narcissist.

Florian

I take it for granted that all of us do.

genkaku

I vote with @how ... I have every capacity to be a narcissistic asshole ... in Buddhism or elsewhere. That said, I see no reason to gild the lily when faced with spiritual narcissism in others. I've lived through it with one 'Zen teacher,' and the unwillingness to call a spade a narcissistic spade may be as debilitating and corrupting as narcissism itself.

Chaz

Citta said:

From Spiritual Narcissism by Thannisaro Bhikkhu.
' The issue of Narcissism in the clinical sense is one that is increasing recognized in may areas of life.
Basically the narcissist is unable to relate to anything outside their own cognitive sphere. Instead all that arises is seen as an extension of their own ego.
Buddhist sanghas are not immune to narcissists. The sad fact is the narcissist may well have a genuine interest in Dhamma..but there will always be a barrier to the arising of real understanding in that all Buddhist endeavour will tend to reinforce the ego sense of the narcissist who will typically see this reinforcement as evidence of their insight.
Some of the signs to be aware of are;
Self-referencing. No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view, and all discussions will see them return to themselves as the focus of their own interest.
A particularly strong need for affirmation. The narcissist will need a constant stream of positive attention and will develop strategies to ensure this , ignoring the normal flow of mutual regard.
Delusions of grandeur. A narcissist will frequently see themselves as above the common herd, for which they feel nothing but pity. This in their own eyes proves the depth of their compassion .'

Any thoughts ?

Sounds an awful lot like Chogyam Trungpa's teaching on Spiritual Materialism.

Invincible_summer

Citta said:

Self-referencing. No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view, and all discussions will see them return to themselves as the focus of their own interest.

But aren't our own experiences the only ones we can speak of honestly and truthfully? They are the ones we know best, after all.

searching_samsara

All the narcissists together now "I think............"

karasti

It would go over like a turd in the punchbowl for anyone to say "you think" "he thinks" and so on, lol.
What would a discussion appear like if it took place outside of each person's own view?

searching_samsara

it would 'look' like practising what you "preach?"

Citta

Invincible_summer said:

Citta said:

Self-referencing. No matter what the topic the narcissist will always speak entirely from their own world view, and all discussions will see them return to themselves as the focus of their own interest.

As above Invincible Summer, I think the salient word here is 'entirely '.

Jeffrey

I think it's better to talk from your own experience. I have problems with mental illness and I have been to those dark places. Thus when I field questions I am speaking from experience and it is more reliable than when I am just trotting out a theory. But that is distinct from what Citta was talking about perhaps.

Another good thing about talking from experience is that it is better than "Buddhism says" because you are acknowledging different streams or paths. If I am deluded and say a nihilistic view, you don't exist or even "I have had an ego death" as a delusion, then would be better to present it as just an opinion.

person

To me it seems like the self orientation that we all have to one degree or another becomes a real problem when it acts like a bubble that blocks out all other perspectives or information that is contrary to our own.

Buddhist teachings talk about pride as being like the top of a mountain where when knowledge falls like rain none of it stays and all flows into the valleys.

I'm curious as to any advice Thanisarro Bhikku gave as to how to overcome narcissism?

fivebells

@person, I haven't listened to it yet but here is a talk of his titled "Antidotes for Narcissism"

Citta

Excellent @fivebells ..thank you for that.

rivercane

Can someone be a narcissist and still have low self esteem? If so, I think I may be a narcissist. It's not that I consider myself better than anyone, it's quite the opposite - I always consider myself to be lower than everybody else. I find that I'm unable to see past myself, but it's more like I'm coming from a place of emotional pain and a fear of being hurt one more time.

Still, at times I am actually overcome with pain when I consider the suffering of others and I have great concern for humanity in the abstract sense. Certain individuals as well but my main concern is for society as a whole, and I prefer to be alone most of the time. I also feel great concern for the environment; the planet itself and the animals.

I've noticed that I use the word I a lot. It's hard for me to think about anything but myself and my own life most of the time. Is this normal? I don't know, I think I take things to extremes and I consider myself to be very neurotic. Yet all I really want is to fit in and be normal. That's all I've ever wanted. I have no interest in being above others or some kind of leader yet everything I think about or consider is filtered through my own world view.

Just my luck: I get to be a narcissist who doesn't even like himself.

Citta

I can't of course comment on you personally rivercane. But the answer is yes in general terms.
Narcissism is often the result of a suppressed inferiority complex...It is a form of over -compensation.
But it seems to me that you have too much insight to be a full-blown narcissist..and we all have some narcissism.

genkaku

Just my luck: I get to be a narcissist who doesn't even like himself.

@rivercane -- Maybe I'm all wrong, but I have a sense that a narcissist by definition is someone with low self-esteem. If s/he had higher self-esteem, what need would there be to rub anyone else's nose in it?

fivebells

Citta said:

Excellent @fivebells ..thank you for that.

No problem. Quite a challenging talk to listen to, I had to go back over it multiple times because I lost attention. Not sure how much of it's him and how much is me. Maybe I'll transcribe it. Definitely not typical Thanissaro fare.

I think there's a 50% chance that this is actually by a different Thanissaro, since you said it's from the Universal Buddhist Society Magazine, and they mention a different Thanissaro there (e.g. mentions a "Nicholas Thanissaro," which must be a different person to the "Geoff" Thanissaro in the talk I linked.) Also, I think the writing is a bit clumsier than I am used to in "Geoff" Thanissaro essays. (E.g., "...but there will always be a barrier to the arising of real understanding..." is a run-on sentence whose readability I could improve fairly easily, and I don't consider myself to be an exceptional writer.) Do you have a full cite for this essay, by any chance?

Citta

I dont...It was simply my assumption that it was THAT Thannisaro..'Tan Geoff'...but..

rivercane

genkaku said:

@rivercane -- Maybe I'm all wrong, but I have a sense that a narcissist by definition is someone with low self-esteem. If s/he had higher self-esteem, what need would there be to rub anyone else's nose in it?

True. I guess what I meant is that I can't relate to the part about secretly considering myself above others or needing a constant flow of attention. I'm actually very avoidant and don't want any attention at all. I think that certain people who are narcissistic or sociopathic thrive in the workplace, for example, whereas I'm exactly the type of person who is always passed up for promotion or not hired in the first place.

I almost wish I could be that kind of person. Not really, but sometimes the thought does occur to me that life would be better that way.

Jeffrey

@rivercane, We all have a place where we can work from. You seem humble and articulate to me, but also sad at some times and situations. You seem normal to me other than the pain you describe as related to thinking often of "I" and self. There must be some way for you to relate to yourself in a positive way. Do you live in an area where you can get a teacher and/or meditation teacher

rivercane

Thank you, @Jeffrey. Yea, I suffer from clinical depression along with anxiety. Plus a general loss of self-esteem with not being able to work right now combined with a lot of loneliness and isolation.

There is a dharma center about an hour away and I've been going about once a week. Everyone has been really nice but it's hard for me to open up. I'm hoping I'll be able to start working again soon and also start training again in tai chi. That had really helped in the past.

Citta

You will be in my thoughts and prayers rivercane.

_/\_