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Indeed. The purpose of Buddha cannot escape mental illness. The goal is nirvana. I am more enlightened than I used to be but my illness has actually gotten worse with a development of auditory hallucinations. But my head is on straight because of Buddhism. Bank on it.
You can't meditate away a hangover or a broken bone, but that has nothing to do with nirvana. Broken bones can even be a teacher. Remember I got involved with Buddhism (if you recall ) because of a mental breakdown. I thank God for that breakdown because otherwise I wouln't have noticed the diamond in my pocket and would be trying to fill the hole with the senses and status or whatever: sex, money, and power.
I don't understand a couple of your comments.
"I am more enlightened than I used to be but my illness has actually gotten worse with a development of auditory hallucinations. But my head is on straight because of Buddhism."
"I thank God for that breakdown because otherwise I wouln't have noticed the diamond in my pocket and would be trying to fill the hole with the senses and status or whatever: sex, money, and power."
In tonglen you breath in all the mental illnesses and broken bones and give to others all of the relief and inspiration. Trungpa rinpoche says that this doesn't 'just' happen in the imagination, but that you actually do breath in the suffering and out the release. That it is 'true' like some believe prayer is/does. This is the core mahayana practice to develop compassion (I seem to have read). There is no danger if you realize that fundamental goodness and sanity is infinite.
oh my. Religious/ magical thinking at it's best. Been there, done that, met a thousand people who live in a fantasy bubble of religious/magical thinking. This is where I will definitely bow out. Good Night all! Dream well!
oh my. Religious/ magical thinking at it's best. Been there, done that, met a thousand people who live in a fantasy bubble of religious/magical thinking. This is where I will definitely bow out. Good Night all! Dream well!
Well, mahayana already does away with the notion of a universe in the heart sutra. More clearly developed by Nagarjuna as the madhyamaka system.
So you should view this fleeting world -- A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightening in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
~diamond sutra
Diamond Sutra Chapter 32.
Buddha continued:
"Subhuti, if anyone gave to the Buddha an immeasurable quantity of the seven treasures sufficient to fill the whole universe; and if another person, whether a man or woman, in seeking to attain complete Enlightenment were to earnestly and faithfully observe and study even a single section of this Sutra and explain it to others, the accumulated blessing and merit of that latter person would be far greater."
"Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."
"So I say to you - This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:"
"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream; Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream."
"I am more enlightened than I used to be but my illness has actually gotten worse with a development of auditory hallucinations. But my head is on straight because of Buddhism."
I only have symptoms of my illness, but I am content and cope with them. I also total faith in Buddhism which is a precious treasure because it is faith in the method out of suffering. There are three motives to practice: help my life, help me exit suffering, bring all beings away from suffeirng. The dharma I practice includes all three rather than just the first one. So I am trying to let go of my attachments and even using them as path (mahayana does that... it uses obstacles as path).
Jeffrey said
"I thank God for that breakdown because otherwise I wouln't have noticed the diamond in my pocket and would be trying to fill the hole with the senses and status or whatever: sex, money, and power."
My illness made me examine my awareness. That is the precious treasure or diamond in my pocket. It is valuable because it is the only resource that reveals the truth. The four noble truths are an example, but remember it is NOBLE truths and not four good ideas/goals. They are noble truths based on right view. Right view recognizes the three marks: impermanence, non-self, and dukkha when phenomena are grasped.
I understand what @Jeffrey is saying. He isn't saying that mental illness isn't a big deal, or that a therapist couldn't do a fine job dealing with it. Just that enlightenment has nothing to do with it - you can be very sane and balanced (with no need for therapy/counseling your whole life), and yet be far, far away from enlightenment if you are just like any worldly person entangled in greed, cruelty, etc.
On the other hand, you can have many psychological problems and yet be closer to nirvana because, despite those problems (or sometimes even because of them, for bad things could also be a blessing in disguise), you defilements could be slowly leaving you, taking you closer and closer to Buddha nature every day.
But to the outside world, this may look odd or even impossible - because they follow a narrow logic (such as "how can a person, who can't even solve his mental health issues, be closer to enlightenment?"). Point here is, there is no linear progression - it is not like passing school, then going to university, etc.
In my own personal case, I do believe that Buddhism has the potential to bring me greater inner peace, a more optimistic outlook on life, and better relationships with others (I think most would agree that those are the hallmarks of good mental health) than nonreligious psychological therapy.
The reason I have this hope? Because so much of my unhappiness stems from my insecurities about myself and what I perceive to be flaws. Every (good) therapist I have been to has tried to alleviate this unhappiness by giving me tools designed to allow me to do normal things despite my insecurities (as opposed to trying to convince me that my insecurities aren't true, which would be useless and counterproductive).
However, my stubborn mind cannot conceive of a reality where my flaws are insignificant enough to be OK with, UNLESS the material world we experience around us is not the end-all, be-all of reality. I myself can't think of a viewpoint that says this that doesn't involve some kind of religious/spiritual faith. Without any existence of anything supernatural, what is more important than the things we experience, and thus, how can we be any more valuable than the quality of the experiences we give to others in the material world?
In other words, therapy may give me the tools to function normally despite my dissatisfaction over my flaws, but only an outlook that incorporates some belief in a greater reality than the one we can experience in this life can really "cure" my dissatisfaction. Therapy tells me to live despite my flaws. Buddhism tells me that my flaws are an illusion. Both can help me function, but only one can really give me inner peace.
I also want to point out that my case is just my case. I don't see how Buddhism (or any religion) could relieve someone from a mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder on its own. But if the crux of your mental illness are esteem issues (either too high or too low) that stem from either thinking you are more flawed than everyone else or that everyone else is more flawed than you, embracing something like the Buddhist ideas of detachment and emptiness (or other religious ideas, like the Christian idea of everyone being made in the image of God) could greatly reduce the significance of those perceived flaws or lack of flaws in your life and help you relate to others better. Potentially. Not for everyone. If you think you need regular therapy, you probably do.
In my own personal case, I do believe that Buddhism has the potential to bring me greater inner peace, a more optimistic outlook on life, and better relationships with others (I think most would agree that those are the hallmarks of good mental health) than nonreligious psychological therapy.
The reason I have this hope? Because so much of my unhappiness stems from my insecurities about myself and what I perceive to be flaws. Every (good) therapist I have been to has tried to alleviate this unhappiness by giving me tools designed to allow me to do normal things despite my insecurities (as opposed to trying to convince me that my insecurities aren't true, which would be useless and counterproductive).
However, my stubborn mind cannot conceive of a reality where my flaws are insignificant enough to be OK with, UNLESS the material world we experience around us is not the end-all, be-all of reality. I myself can't think of a viewpoint that says this that doesn't involve some kind of religious/spiritual faith. Without any existence of anything supernatural, what is more important than the things we experience, and thus, how can we be any more valuable than the quality of the experiences we give to others in the material world?
In other words, therapy may give me the tools to function normally despite my dissatisfaction over my flaws, but only an outlook that incorporates some belief in a greater reality than the one we can experience in this life can really "cure" my dissatisfaction. Therapy tells me to live despite my flaws. Buddhism tells me that my flaws are an illusion. Both can help me function, but only one can really give me inner peace.
It is the rare psychotherapy that actually deals with the heart. Buddhism deals with both the heart as well as the mind. Kornfield's books are The Wise Heart and A Path with Heart. That is the distinction. And Buddhist practices, such as loving kindness, acceptance and mindfulness, only enhance a person's functioning.
These days, therapies like Compassion Focused Therapy, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Mindfullness Based Stress Reduction, and Neuroplasticity have all been proven to effectively treat mental illness. They also involve compassion, acceptance and mindfulness.
I agree that spiritual practices such as Christianity also incorporate heart, and that too has been proven to be effective.
How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
And as far as needing to be a Psychotherapist or Psychologist in order to help people deal with their mental and emotional problems, I would stack the Dalai Lama, or Pema Chodron or Ajahn Brahm and numerous other Buddhists accomplishments in helping people, up against any therapist on earth.
... How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
The risk is that a person with significant mental illness will think that Buddhism (or any religion) is going to eliminate the need for professional psychological or psychiatric care. Such a person is not centered enough to diagnose his situation/conditions.
... How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
The risk is that a person with significant mental illness will think that Buddhism (or any religion) is going to eliminate the need for professional psychological or psychiatric care. Such a person is not centered enough to diagnose his situation/conditions.
Fair enough but you could say that about self-help books too.
... How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
The risk is that a person with significant mental illness will think that Buddhism (or any religion) is going to eliminate the need for professional psychological or psychiatric care. Such a person is not centered enough to diagnose his situation/conditions.
Fair enough but you could say that about self-help books too.
Absolutely. But what has that to do with this discussion?
The risk is that a person with significant mental illness will think that Buddhism (or any religion) is going to eliminate the need for professional psychological or psychiatric care. Such a person is not centered enough to diagnose his situation/conditions.
Maybe so. Maybe the off centered diagnosis is all they have. Life is risky. There is little one can do for severely deluded or incompetent professionals, the severely mentally ill, the severely uncentered or the terminally cructacean. For example I had an internet stalker with severe mental health problems who wrote to me daily for several years. Every time I tried to engage on some level her posts became crazed by the interaction. I just had to allow her to write but soon stopped reading, despite pleas, interpretations of my cruelty/secret subtexting/wonderous wisdom etc etc. She was beyond anything I could say, suggest or advise. Nothing I could do. :banghead:
There are people here who have 'magical thinking'. After all they live partly in a strange and wonderous/dangerous/confusing/blessed world.
Should they firstly get all the therapy/help/dharma they can? Yes. In what order? In whatever order they can . . . :clap:
... How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
The risk is that a person with significant mental illness will think that Buddhism (or any religion) is going to eliminate the need for professional psychological or psychiatric care. Such a person is not centered enough to diagnose his situation/conditions.
Fair enough but you could say that about self-help books too.
Absolutely. But what has that to do with this discussion?
So should we be putting self-help books in the hands of people without training because they prevent someone from going to a psychologist? How many people can actually afford a psychologist?
... So should we be putting self-help books in the hands of people without training because they prevent someone from going to a psychologist? How many people can actually afford a psychologist?
1. We're not dictators. We don't tell people what books they can or cannot buy...at least not in my country. Of course, in some predominantly Buddhist countries there are books that are totally banned.
2. Depends on the country, the availability of psychologists, and government programs and insurance. So what?
... So should we be putting self-help books in the hands of people without training because they prevent someone from going to a psychologist? How many people can actually afford a psychologist?
1. We're not dictators. We don't tell people what books they can or cannot buy...at least not in my country. Of course, in some predominantly Buddhist countries there are books that are totally banned.
2. Depends on the country, the availability of psychologists, and government programs and insurance. So what?
The point you made, was that Buddhist beliefs may lead someone to think they need no help such as psychiatric/psychological treatment. Self-help books may also lead someone to think this. But what of the majority of the people in the world do not have the benefits and advantages we have in the west? Would you discourage them from seeking help through Buddhism, or Self-help strategies or playing tiddly winks if it helps?
But this is far afield from the subject at hand. The fact is, psychology sees people as thinking beings who experience emotions. Buddhism sees people as emotional beings who experience thought. I find that Western Psychology very often ignores the emotional part of the human experience. Buddhism focuses on the emotional, but I find there is also a focus on ways of thinking.
The point you made, was that Buddhist beliefs may lead someone to think they need no help such as psychiatric/psychological treatment. Self-help books may also lead someone to think this. But what of the majority of the people in the world do not have the benefits and advantages we have in the west? Would you discourage them from seeking help through Buddhism, or Self-help strategies or playing tiddly winks if it helps?
But this is far afield from the subject at hand. The fact is, psychology sees people as thinking beings who experience emotions. Buddhism sees people as emotional beings who experience thought. I find that Western Psychology very often ignores the emotional part of the human experience. Buddhism focuses on the emotional, but I find there is also a focus on ways of thinking.
And psychotherapy styles go out of style, too. I hate to think of all the styles that were around when I was studying psychology back in the mid-1970s and are now pretty much gone with the wind.
Yes, styles do seem to come in and out of fashion. Mindfulness is currently fashionable, but whether it will last - who knows?
I don't think it's part of their training. But seriously, in these terms could we say that the role of a therapist to help people cope better with samsara?
naropa offers a degree in psychology and transpersonal psychology gives a big nod to buddhism
I missed this ^^ post yesterday, somehow....
Is this (Naropa) the same place founded by (or inspired by?) Chögyam Trungpa?
If so, that would be enough for me to dismiss its "Buddhist street cred" right off the bat. OK, just wondering... no need to answer, I'll look it up myself.
If Buddhism itself, is some sort of stand-alone "psychology" that is appropriate for psychological counseling, why is it that the Dalai Lama isn't licensed to practice as a psychologist? Well, shouldn't he be?
I know Tibetan lamas who are licensed psychotherapists. They got credit for some of their background in Buddhism, towards their psych degree. Non-attachment, mindfulness, using the mind to overcome adversity, compassion, etc. can all be useful tools in therapy. No one said Buddhism is a "stand-alone 'psychology' that is appropriate for psychological counseling", though. It does have some useful techniques that some psychologists find helpful in their practice.
"No one said Buddhism is a "stand-alone 'psychology' that is appropriate for psychological counseling", though. "
Well, the OP was: Is Buddhism a psychological therapy?
Actually, if you read what a few people participating in this thread have said and/or strongly implied... that is pretty much what they've said. Even to the point of forgoing therapy and meds for Buddhist meditation therapy and gurus. ::shrugs:::
" It does have some useful techniques that some psychologists find helpful in their practice. "
No one here has been arguing against that point...
Oh sorry MaryAnne, I wasn't kidding. I read it as crud. I have a strong prescription on my glasses and over 2 years old. Sorry 'bout that! That's a perfect example of a misunderstanding on my part.
No problem. It happens to us all from time to time, I'm sure! I have my strong opinions about some things, (like Trungpa) but I really do try to express them without hurting anyone intentionally...
I will say that my medicines are more important than meditation or mindfulness for example. But my medicines are part of relief of suffering so they are not against Buddhism. My therapist, though he is amazing, I would give up before meditation and especially before medicines.
I will say that my medicines are more important than meditation or mindfulness for example. But my medicines are part of relief of suffering so they are not against Buddhism. My therapist, though he is amazing, I would give up before meditation and especially before medicines.
Comments
So the stubbornness in me bows to the stubbornness in you.
"I am more enlightened than I used to be but my illness has actually gotten worse with a development of auditory hallucinations. But my head is on straight because of Buddhism."
"I thank God for that breakdown because otherwise I wouln't have noticed the diamond in my pocket and would be trying to fill the hole with the senses and status or whatever: sex, money, and power."
This is where I will definitely bow out. Good Night all! Dream well!
~the Diamond Sutra
Jeffrey said I only have symptoms of my illness, but I am content and cope with them. I also total faith in Buddhism which is a precious treasure because it is faith in the method out of suffering. There are three motives to practice: help my life, help me exit suffering, bring all beings away from suffeirng. The dharma I practice includes all three rather than just the first one. So I am trying to let go of my attachments and even using them as path (mahayana does that... it uses obstacles as path).
Jeffrey said My illness made me examine my awareness. That is the precious treasure or diamond in my pocket. It is valuable because it is the only resource that reveals the truth. The four noble truths are an example, but remember it is NOBLE truths and not four good ideas/goals. They are noble truths based on right view. Right view recognizes the three marks: impermanence, non-self, and dukkha when phenomena are grasped.
On the other hand, you can have many psychological problems and yet be closer to nirvana because, despite those problems (or sometimes even because of them, for bad things could also be a blessing in disguise), you defilements could be slowly leaving you, taking you closer and closer to Buddha nature every day.
But to the outside world, this may look odd or even impossible - because they follow a narrow logic (such as "how can a person, who can't even solve his mental health issues, be closer to enlightenment?"). Point here is, there is no linear progression - it is not like passing school, then going to university, etc.
The reason I have this hope? Because so much of my unhappiness stems from my insecurities about myself and what I perceive to be flaws. Every (good) therapist I have been to has tried to alleviate this unhappiness by giving me tools designed to allow me to do normal things despite my insecurities (as opposed to trying to convince me that my insecurities aren't true, which would be useless and counterproductive).
However, my stubborn mind cannot conceive of a reality where my flaws are insignificant enough to be OK with, UNLESS the material world we experience around us is not the end-all, be-all of reality. I myself can't think of a viewpoint that says this that doesn't involve some kind of religious/spiritual faith. Without any existence of anything supernatural, what is more important than the things we experience, and thus, how can we be any more valuable than the quality of the experiences we give to others in the material world?
In other words, therapy may give me the tools to function normally despite my dissatisfaction over my flaws, but only an outlook that incorporates some belief in a greater reality than the one we can experience in this life can really "cure" my dissatisfaction. Therapy tells me to live despite my flaws. Buddhism tells me that my flaws are an illusion. Both can help me function, but only one can really give me inner peace.
These days, therapies like Compassion Focused Therapy, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Mindfullness Based Stress Reduction, and Neuroplasticity have all been proven to effectively treat mental illness. They also involve compassion, acceptance and mindfulness.
I agree that spiritual practices such as Christianity also incorporate heart, and that too has been proven to be effective.
How could it hurt a person to incorporate compassion for self into their practice? Or mental resilience as offered by acceptance of all challenges? How could knowing what effects you (being mindful) interfere with recovery from mental illness?
Life is risky. There is little one can do for severely deluded or incompetent professionals, the severely mentally ill, the severely uncentered or the terminally cructacean.
For example I had an internet stalker with severe mental health problems who wrote to me daily for several years. Every time I tried to engage on some level her posts became crazed by the interaction.
I just had to allow her to write but soon stopped reading, despite pleas, interpretations of my cruelty/secret subtexting/wonderous wisdom etc etc. She was beyond anything I could say, suggest or advise. Nothing I could do.
:banghead:
There are people here who have 'magical thinking'. After all they live partly in a strange and wonderous/dangerous/confusing/blessed world.
Should they firstly get all the therapy/help/dharma they can? Yes. In what order? In whatever order they can . . . :clap:
2. Depends on the country, the availability of psychologists, and government programs and insurance. So what?
But this is far afield from the subject at hand. The fact is, psychology sees people as
thinking beings who experience emotions. Buddhism sees people as emotional beings who experience thought. I find that Western Psychology very often ignores the emotional part of the human experience. Buddhism focuses on the emotional, but I find there is also a focus on ways of thinking.
But seriously, in these terms could we say that the role of a therapist to help people cope better with samsara?
I missed this ^^ post yesterday, somehow....
Is this (Naropa) the same place founded by (or inspired by?) Chögyam Trungpa?
If so, that would be enough for me to dismiss its "Buddhist street cred" right off the bat. OK, just wondering... no need to answer, I'll look it up myself.
Well, the OP was: Is Buddhism a psychological therapy?
Actually, if you read what a few people participating in this thread have said and/or strongly implied... that is pretty much what they've said.
Even to the point of forgoing therapy and meds for Buddhist meditation therapy and gurus. ::shrugs:::
" It does have some useful techniques that some psychologists find helpful in their practice. "
No one here has been arguing against that point...
You're kidding right?
I hope so, because I said "Buddhist street CRED"... as in slang for street credentials!
Meaning someone or something true to itself or reputation because they walk the walk, talk the talk, etc.
@Jeffrey
No problem. It happens to us all from time to time, I'm sure!
I have my strong opinions about some things, (like Trungpa) but I really do try to express them without hurting anyone intentionally...