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Martial arts and Buddhism

Greetings wisdomful Sangha,

I've been gone for a while but have been reading a lot of the discussions on the forums. Keepin my musings to myself. But know I have something that I'd like to put out there.
Where do you stand on martial arts combined with Buddhism?
During the summer i've grown attracted to Kung Fu (specifically Wing Chun) and adding some little forms into the mix of styles that speak to me. I'm really drawn towards those styles that aim at using as little strength as possible to avoid severaly wounding your opponent or aggressor (as is the Shaolin way). Thus i really like shaolin style, Wing Chun, Ba Gua Zhang style... Of course i'm fascinated by the spiritual side of Kung Fu.
So, what are your opinions? Are there any martial artists out there?

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2014

    I did Wah Lum kung fu for about a year. This is like 10 years ago. Some things I thought in common with Buddhism:

    1) High amount of mental determination. In Kung fu we did riding horse stance until it really hurt and the whole session I was stumbling because I was so tired. A form that was not hard would be hard because I was tired. The Determination could be similar to determination to meditate only it is being too tired mentally or mentally distracted rather than muscles hurting.

    2) At the beginning of class we would say "learn kindness, learn fellowship, learn kung-fu". This is in line with maturity and metta.

    3) health is in line with wishing for long life for yourself and others.

    4) cool swords.. just kidding

    David
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited September 2014

    I've dabbled in a few but have mastered none. Went furthest in Tae Kwon Do because my wife and I rented my grand master a room in exchange for daily private lessons.

    I feel if it is used strictly for defending beings from harm and as a last alternative, Buddhism could work with it.

    Some say that non-violence would mean not physically intervening but that allows a mugger to keep harming.

    I recommend "Striking Thoughts" a book made up of musings from Bruce Lee. Although his style leans more towards the Tao, he mentions Buddhism a few times in there if I remember right.

    (lmao Did anyone catch that I had to edit out Stan for Bruce?)

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    Stanley is a nice name though.

  • I found out in my own research that the origins of Kung Fu (on a linguistic level) was that martial arts consist of 'knowledge to stop the fighting'. So with that in perspective I found that martial arts and Buddhism are very well compatible with the correct mindset, the one to learn how to control yourself and keep others from harming you or themselves without causing harm yourself. Maybe this original way of thinking has dissapeared a bit in modern thinking (styles like krav maga aren't really focused on that). But I find that a lot of eastern MA (china, japan, korea...) focus on the ability on how to stop a fight quickly to avoid destruction.
    In addition I found that the Shaolin monks (wel known buddhist practitioners) even focus their using of weapons on how not to inflict mortal injury. It's even clear in their butterfly sword style, that they aim to incapacitate their opponent, not kill.
    I agree with you @jeffrey, that a lot of mental determination is needed for persuing MA and thus the link between it and Buddhism is clear. Both need a lot of mental work of the practitioner to bring forth results, and both bring peace of mind when mastery is achieved.
    @ourself thanks for the book recommendation i'll definetly try to check it out.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    I have been training for some time now. But right now I just feel old and tired. :) .

    Aikido, Kyoukushin, Itchuan and then some dabbling in Iaido, Jodo, Kyoshu, Kiaijutsu, knife kata etc.

    I see no real problem combining the two.

    /Victor

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited September 2014

    I spent years in the martial arts.

    I found many more serious martial artists who later became Buddhists than serious Buddhists who later decided to become a martial arts.

    Kind of like Shakyamuni.

    Davidlobster
  • If practicing martial arts contributes to fantasies about fighting, killing and maiming, or inflates the ego, then it is unskillful to continue with it.
    If it reduces those fantasies and promotes humility then it's skillful. A good teacher encourages humility and a realistic view of what having fighting skills means in the world.
    I think that combined with practicing compassion and wisdom, it will be beneficial.

    JeffreyVastmindlobsterCobaltsword
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2014

    To settle any conflict at all ,verbal,physical or mental, ego reduction is essential.

    I have sparred with some masters in my life. And it is true that you get afraid of those that get angry and push back when I push.

    But I have most respect for those who just smile and do not push back when I push.

    In Japan it is called Mushin. No-mind or possibly not-mind. There are probably thousands of books about it.

    It is also essential in what many artists, martial or otherwise, call flow.

    Recommend: Taisen Deshimaru.

    /Victor

  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    I'm not a martial artist, but I have always wondered how Zen Buddhism ended up being strongly associated with the samurai class of ancient Japan, whose job was basically to kill people (including sometimes themselves). It seems to me that in this case the Zen unfortunately got dissociated from the Buddhism...

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @zenguitar said:
    I'm not a martial artist, but I have always wondered how Zen Buddhism ended up being strongly associated with the samurai class of ancient Japan, whose job was basically to kill people (including sometimes themselves). It seems to me that in this case the Zen unfortunately got dissociated from the Buddhism...

    Oh, that's simple. Buddha went around using martial arts against all his enemies. So it's logical that he passed that on down to his followers. It's the perfect expression of Buddhism compassion.

    CobaltswordzenguitarSteve_B
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    I'm not a martial artist, but I have always wondered how Zen Buddhism ended up being strongly associated with the samurai class of ancient Japan, whose job was basically to kill people (including sometimes themselves). It seems to me that in this case the Zen unfortunately got dissociated from the Buddhism...

    I'm not sure that Zen Buddhism is associated with Bushido except that it was influenced in part by Zen as a way for the warrior to develop mental discipline.

    And of course Zen Buddhism at its conception was more a Taoist path than Buddhist. A Zen master is called Roshi which was a loving nick name for Lao Tzu.

    zenguitar
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @vinlyn said:
    Oh, that's simple. Buddha went around using martial arts against all his enemies. So it's logical that he passed that on down to his followers. It's the perfect expression of Buddhism compassion.

    It is amazing how many people fall for the cliche that martial arts is about violence.

    The Buddha was the perfect martial artist. He turned his opponents into friends.
    That is the most skillful way to end a conflict.

    The best swordsman is the one who does not need to draw his sword. And that is actually not a cliche but real pragmatic budo cultivation.

    /Victor

    zenguitar
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @Victorious said:

    It is amazing how many people fall for the cliche that martial arts is about violence.

    Some of the karate and ju jitsu teachers I trained under believed in attack being the best form of defence, and didn't have a problem at all with being "violent". Some people have a rather romantic idea about martial arts, the approach depends very much on the style and teacher.

    zenguitarvinlyn
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @zenguitar said:
    I'm not a martial artist, but I have always wondered how Zen Buddhism ended up being strongly associated with the samurai class of ancient Japan, whose job was basically to kill people (including sometimes themselves). It seems to me that in this case the Zen unfortunately got dissociated from the Buddhism...

    Obviously the samurai were very selective in their approach to Zen Buddhism.

    zenguitar
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @robot said:

    A good teacher encourages humility and a realistic view of what having fighting skills means in the world.

    Again a rather romanticised view. Another view is that a "good" teacher encourages confidence and the ability to win a fight.

  • For myself I regard Gichin Funakoshi as an example of what a true practitioner of the martial arts is. I am still guided by one of his books. "Karate-Do,My Way of Life.

    Victorious
  • zenguitarzenguitar Bad Buddhist New England Veteran

    I think this may be related to the OP's question: Are some martial arts considered more "Buddhist" than others? For instance, the ones that try to redirect the attacker's own energy in order to deflect an incoming attack (e.g. Aikido, Tai Chi, jujutsu) rather than the ones that emphasize striking at vital points and possibly causing serious harm or death (e.g. karate, Wing Chun, various weapon forms). Keep in mind here though that I'm not a martial artist, I've only read about this stuff, so my understanding of each may be wrong.

    lobster
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Some of the karate and ju jitsu teachers I trained under believed in attack being the best form of defence, and didn't have a problem at all with being "violent". Some people have a rather romantic idea about martial arts, the approach depends very much on the style and teacher.

    Again I think it is a pretty lame categorization to divide martial art into violent vs romantic. It insinuates that the only form of martial arts that "work" is the violent one. Which is totally bogus.

    But a difference that is relevant is to make the distinction between Art and Sport.

    Karate and jujitsu are big in competitions and many practitioners/teachers are only interested in the physical part.

    To find a martial Artist you will have to search more than to just drop in to your local karate dojo.

    A real Master teach you the budo that works in real life and not only in the competition ring.

    /Victor

    lobster
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @zenguitar said:
    I think this may be related to the OP's question: Are some martial arts considered more "Buddhist" than others? For instance, the ones that try to redirect the attacker's own energy in order to deflect an incoming attack (e.g. Aikido, Tai Chi, jujutsu) rather than the ones that emphasize striking at vital points and possibly causing serious harm or death (e.g. karate, Wing Chun, various weapon forms). Keep in mind here though that I'm not a martial artist, I've only read about this stuff, so my understanding of each may be wrong.

    Intention is kamma. Does not matter if you beat someone with a baseball bat or just give a vigorous massage.

    If the intention is to kill or harm it is still unskillful action.

    But if the intention is to end conflict with the least amount of damage to all involved or even to save someone from harm then that is the most skillful path to take. IMO. Keep the sword in its sheath.

    Unskillful action is based on hate,greed and ignorance.
    Skillful on the absence of the above or the presence of their opposites.

    There is no special form of MA that will secure you from the above axioms of Dhamma.

    /Victor

    lobsterzenguitar
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @SpinyNorman said:

    Not so much a romanticized view, as one drawn from experience.
    In Judo, which of course is a full contact sport, I found that respect for others and obedience to the Sensei is taught from the ground up. Also, grading is based on success in competition, so one learns ones place the hard way. There is no room for fantasizing about your abilities.
    In Karate we were taught that the first line of defence is to run away. If it came to fighting, strike with the intention of immobilizing or destroying your opponent.
    Our teacher had no patience for the skills he taught being used outside of the dojo casually. If it happened even one time the student was expelled, which occurred only once while I was training there.
    We were regularly lectured on what it meant to practice martial arts. What was expected as far as behaviour went. How we would represent the tradition and so on.

    zenguitar
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @Victorious said:

    Again I think it is a pretty lame categorization to divide martial art into violent vs romantic.

    I didn't say that, so please stop putting words into my mouth.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @robot said:
    We were regularly lectured on what it meant to practice martial arts. What was expected as far as behaviour went. How we would represent the tradition and so on.

    Obviously our experiences have been quite different then.

  • Mushindo was the Buddhist cult style I practiced and we did a form of sparring called kata kumite, done slowly and with perfect form. Only later is free form fighting allowed.

    However I prefer Tai Chi Chuan, a totally soft style, completely unmartial, until you get it . . . then it is as potentially vicious and effective as sumo.

    In our class we meditated before and after the session. Not long but we did. My first and second kensho or samadhi experience were during Mushindo practice.

    If I was going to do a style now it would be pakua, Hsing-I or maybe Cossack or capoeira dancing style . . . or maybe NLP mental disarming . . .

    Victorioushow
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @SpinyNorman said:
    I didn't say that, so please stop putting words into my mouth.

    I said you said what? :D .
    Anyway...Never said that. ;) .

    How about some kumite? Just for fun? :clap: .

    /Victor

  • I'm not sure this is within the topic but I once saw a Tibetan monk, I think he was a monk, on a late night tv show about people's lives and he was doing this amazing form that resembled a bit traditional shaolin, but not quite like it, the movements were fluid and somewhat fast, I think he never even moved outside the mat, yoga sized. I tried to research about it but all I find regarding Tibetan martial arts is the telepathic martial arts stuff, I already had heard about it. Anyone by any chance knows about it?

  • WanMinWanMin Veteran
    edited October 2014

    About martial arts and spiritual development this story always comes to mind:

    Such refined skill in the fine art of emotional influence is perhaps best exemplified by a story told by an old friend, the late Terry Dobson, who in the 1950s was one of the first Americans ever to study the martial art Aikido in Japan.

    school-teacher-student-motivation-resources-courses.com/behaviour.html

  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran

    WanMin, there is supposedly a traditional Tibetan art called Tetsudo, but the Japanese name immediately makes it suspect to me.

    When it comes to the martial arts of the east, most of them went through dramatic transitions in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Martial arts that were originally a way of minimum force self defence by monks and peasants were transferred to the battlefields of the Boxer Rebellion and the Okinawan uprisings and those arts originally practised by the elite were being taught to the lower orders as countries went through a process of militarisation. From this turmoil it is difficult to make out exactly how these arts fitted into Buddhist cultures, just as it is difficult to reconcile fencing and boxing with the Christian societies in which they developed.

    For the record I am a Karateka (Wado Ryu) and an Iaidoka (Muso Shinden Ryu), although I have practiced other arts in the dim and distant past.

  • Zen is the ultimate non attachment of the body. It allows the body to do what it is suppose to do without the Ego's intervention.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @WanMin said:

    How about snake boxing and heron boxing?

  • Good men can still do bad things. True Zen only good. The body defends itself. With or without your intervention. Stop controlling and you will see. Your will is enough.

    WanMin
  • @ZenBadger said:
    WanMin, there is supposedly a traditional Tibetan art called Tetsudo, but the Japanese name immediately makes it suspect to me.

    When it comes to the martial arts of the east, most of them went through dramatic transitions in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Martial arts that were originally a way of minimum force self defence by monks and peasants were transferred to the battlefields of the Boxer Rebellion and the Okinawan uprisings and those arts originally practised by the elite were being taught to the lower orders as countries went through a process of militarisation. From this turmoil it is difficult to make out exactly how these arts fitted into Buddhist cultures, just as it is difficult to reconcile fencing and boxing with the Christian societies in which they developed.

    For the record I am a Karateka (Wado Ryu) and an Iaidoka (Muso Shinden Ryu), although I have practiced other arts in the dim and distant past.

    Thanks I will have to research on that.

    @Victorious said:

    Thank you, it wasn't snake boxing, I will have to research on herom.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @Greg911 said:
    Good men can still do bad things. True Zen only good. The body defends itself. With or without your intervention. Stop controlling and you will see. Your will is enough.

    "Be water, my friends"
    -- Bruce Lee

  • You can't get the fruit if you don't plant the tree.

  • WanMinWanMin Veteran
    edited October 2014

    @Victorious said:

    I was watching a video on heron and it could be it since it has the kind of moves I remember and it keeps in a small area.

    @ZenBadger said:
    WanMin, there is supposedly a traditional Tibetan art called Tetsudo, but the Japanese name immediately makes it suspect to me.

    When it comes to the martial arts of the east, most of them went through dramatic transitions in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Martial arts that were originally a way of minimum force self defence by monks and peasants were transferred to the battlefields of the Boxer Rebellion and the Okinawan uprisings and those arts originally practised by the elite were being taught to the lower orders as countries went through a process of militarisation. From this turmoil it is difficult to make out exactly how these arts fitted into Buddhist cultures, just as it is difficult to reconcile fencing and boxing with the Christian societies in which they developed.

    For the record I am a Karateka (Wado Ryu) and an Iaidoka (Muso Shinden Ryu), although I have practiced other arts in the dim and distant past.

    I once watched a video of a Japanese karate master who was complete pacifist and his training seemed to be more directed to be able to endurance and self control than fighting.
    I guess if one starts thinking about karma, if one hurts another he gets bad consequences and if is subject to violence isn't there a karma to be payed?
    It could Tetsudo also though it strikes me as a bit different.

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