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I believe that many people are liberated in middle of life itself?
rohit
Maharrashtra Veteran
I do not find that liberation is very rare. Whether they are theist or atheist are liberated. It is over hyped to say that moksha or nirvan is very rare.
I feel that many people are already liberated from life (not necessarily practitioner of Buddhism but just common sense is enough with there virtue of personality of understanding things).
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Ah. But do they demonstrate this liberated state 100% of the time, every single day, day in, day out, without any sense of alteration to their presented state?
Yes, many people are aware of the equilibrium. But it may varies during struggle as a layman. Or may be struggle also improve there practice even more.
An enlightened person never struggles.
It doesn't make sense to me, @rohit, that someone who is enlightened/awakened struggles (which is just another word for suffers). The definition of it is to be released from samsara and all the suffering that goes with it. Even if they remain here in human form. What we would see as a problem that causes us to suffer, an awakened being would not. They wouldn't struggle even with the suffering that goes along with making every day choices. They operate from an entirely different place, I think. Of course, I do not personally know anyone who is awake. I know people who are such amazing people that they seem to be another class of human being all together, but they still suffer.
How do you bring together the idea someone can be awakened yet still struggle/suffer?
@karasti @federica
I am telling about lay person who struggles to complete duties towards family.
Didn't Buddha struggled to get food in morning? Yes he struggled. Not everyone was aware of his accomplishments when he used to change villages to spread his knowledge. He also got negligence by people.
When he was not getting bhiksha and one man abused him. Buddha said "please do not behave like this. You do not know the importance of 'dana' to a hungrey man."
He was still carrying a human body therefore struggle still existed.
You're missing the point.
Those you say are struggling yet liberated permit struggling to bother them, no?
For the Buddha, Struggle existed. He just didn't let it bother him.
Of course the body hungers and thirsts etc, but it is how we react to those sensations that determines if they are making us suffer. The same with people in our lives. Buddha obviously felt he had duties to his family as well, considering he went back for them and they were all awakened as well. But his attachment to them prior to his enlightenment was not the same as his desire to help them afterwards.
Indifference to suffering can be liberating.
And possibly irresponsible.
I should have been clearer and said, "Indifference to my own desires and aversions can be liberating".
@rohit , you say that
and I am curious as to how you have determined this. Are these people consistently calm and rational, do they seem to be unflappable in difficult circumstances, or what exactly?
Yeah, I kinda asked that and received one of the most cryptic responses I've had so far.
I just gave up on the chit-chat, after that....
Yes that is true but what is the depth, permanency and nature of that 'liberation'? For example extreme dukkha may force a high degree of awareness of ones situation and lead into mindfulness without any knowledge of dharma. Will the awareness be stable?
In dharma we have glimpses if fortunate. Openings that offer insight and inspiration. Career Buddhists may have many things to teach us. Such teachers may not be free themselves.
If 'liberated' we are able to recognise the nature of this realisation in ourselves and in others. This means not having to rely on dream based assessment of ourself and others. We therefore have no need for belief but can recognise the liberation and liberated around us, inside and outside of dharma.
I think we all have different definitions of liberation. Some of us may believe that the 'proof' of liberation is calmness etc. Others may believe liberation needs no proof. It is what it is.
I was not referring to "proof", I was referring to recognition. Why do any of us poor sods believe we can discern Liberation in others, unless we are ourselves Liberated, as @lobster suggests. Do all the Liberated ones go around whistling cheerfully and continually so that we may recognize them?
As @techie has indicated, many of us no doubt, rightly or wrongly, harbor some idea regarding the deportment or perhaps the ineffable aura of those enlightened. What is this idea, that was my question.
I saw middle of life as MIDLIFE at first and thought "Awesome" cause I'm midlife. The I re read it and thought "Bugger, I may as well go back to watching the footy on TV"
In the lost suttas of the Spiny Nikaya the Buddha is depicted watching cricket on TV and eating ice-cream, this was when he was relaxing after his enlightenment. Being an English gentleman he introduced all sorts of useful inventions to India, including cricket, TV, steam-trains, wellingtons and sandwiches.
Practice is the stick. Liberation is the carrot. Achieving liberation (or conviction in it's attainability) can become a craving like any other. Believing is transient. New shit comes to light and beliefs become yesterday's trash. Liberation, or cutting ties to the transient things of this life may be as simple as dying (and preparing to die), either figuratively or literally. Liberation for many mid-life? Don't know.
I think for many people the great realization of non-separation is liberation and that's a great realization indeed but to be liberated in the ultimate sense (from what I've gathered) is to be completely aware and living at all times in accordance with the great realization.
I suppose in a sense but if your desire is to help others then you are in a pickle.
The ironic thing is, when people have come here occasionally and declared themselves liberated/awake/enlightened, they have been run out the door really fast, and even quickly banned. So we perhaps aren't good at determining at all who might be enlightened, as we cannot discern for ourselves and we are immediately suspicious of those who say they are.
Catch 22 for the so called enlightened
I am very suspicious of my neti-neti enlightenment. Long may it continue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka