Buddhism..and a supernatural hurdle.

Ric

Hello all, my first post here...

I just started investigating Buddhism this last week, just going through all the different kinds took a long time but I finally decided the one that might "fit" with me was Theravada. As I started my studies I went through an explanation of vipassana meditation and took the major insights I would eventually get as "ok, ill see what happens". The idea of cultivating mindfulness is something I strongly agree with.

Next I started to focus on the Noble Eightfold Path and right away I have some issues. Buddha was a product of his time and Hinduism. So in his worldview if you led a good life, accomplished a lot it would all go away eventually, once you are reborn. So what if you dont believe in samsara. Isnt the Buddha's concept of suffering intrinsically linked to the concept of samsara? Nirvana is escaping Samsara, so it seems if you dont believe in Samsara it seems rather silly to try to escape from it.

any ideas?? am I missing something?

Yacababy

What would all go away once we are reborn?

Dakini

Suffering/discontent will happen whether you believe in it or not. How do you feel when you're sick? Or when a loved one dies or a significant other breaks up with you? Or when you don't get the job you had your heart set on or needed for the income? Stuff happens in life, and people usually get very bummed out about it. Buddhism is mind training (and heart training) to make those difficult times easier to handle. (P.S. Welcome, Ric! )

Yacababy

Well said Dakini. I was and still am sort of thrown off by the question. And yes welcome!!! ^_^

MindGate

Samsara is not to be taken literally, my friend, as reincarnation. Rather, you are dying and being reborn every moment.

Kunga

I think in the beginning its really a good idea to focus mainly on meditation. Without meditation, I'm not sure how much meaning any of the teachings can have. Just a thought..

Dakini

What would all go away once we are reborn?

I think he's saying all your accomplishments from one lifetime go away when you're reborn. But they don't. According to some traditions, knowledge and experience acquired in one lifetime can carry over to another. You're not aware that it's carried over, but you're born with natural inclinations that are due to the past life experience. I always say in the "nature vs. nurture" debate regarding children's personalities, that a third factor gets left out of the equation: past life experience. Kids can show interests and talents that don't come from either "nurture" or genetic endowment (even if you trace back generations). Those unusual inclinations come from past life experience.

But...that's just my observations of my own life. Probably a lot of people would disagree.

Yacababy

Try to understand the eightfold path as a way to more wholesome living as well as increased mindfulness. You cannot practice one portion of it without all of the others. Everyone suffers and everyone I know seeks relief from that suffering. Not everyone will reach enlightenment or nirvana but by living a more wholesome life relieves themselves of some of their suffering as well as the people surrounding them. It's like mindgate said, not to necessarily take samsara literally especially if you are beginning your studies. Wish you the best

Yacababy

Ah okay makes more sense now thanks for clarifying

Ric

hmmm..thanks for the replies.

I think some of you didnt understand my question, the main(only) focus is a question of samsara or the idea of rebirth. The more I learn about Buddhism it seems like it plays a major or at least semi-major role in all Buddhist schools. So my question is if you don't believe in rebirth are you pretty much out of Buddhism? ie. You can believe Jesus was a great philosopher and life guide but not sent by God to die for your sins, so in a major way you are out of Christianity. Doesn't mean you can't follow Jesus' teachings but as a Christian you are missing a major element.

It seems to me Buddha's main goal was to get out of samsara (rebrith) and the suffering comes from the cycle of rebirth/death. Also I appreciate the idea that it is not meant to be taken literally, but since it was a strong Indian belief and it was over two millenniums ago I find it plausible that it is meant literal. Are there any refrences for Buddha using it as a metaphor, I know he used a lot of stories but those were clearly stated as such.

Yacababy

Hmmmm well much like you I am a newbie and do not want to steer you wrong I am sure the other people full of wisdom can help.

Dakini

No, you don't have to believe in rebirth. Lots of Buddhists don't. It's a hotly debated topic here. Try Googling New Buddhist and "rebirth" and see how many different threads come up. It would be good to do this research, rather than start a thread on rebirth. In fact, I think there's one going on that topic now.

Jeffrey

The idea is to just keep an open mind. If you don't believe in rebirth don't let it stop you from practicing buddhism. Or even fraternizing with believers in rebirth.

As far as what did buddha mean? I think that is an interesting point. Ultimately we only realize a certain level of practice in our own experiences. If we read 10000 suttas but do not think about them in relation to our life then we haven't seen how they can be useful. Knowledge of deliverance from suffering is none other in my opinion from knowledge of how the dharma and common sense even can liberate one from suffering.

ThailandTom

You do not have to do anything, you can label yourself whatever you want, even though there is no independent self. Do not expect major relaisations and deep understanding in a couple of weeks, I have been practicing for 2 years now and it is still a vastly complex religion in some areas.

In my opinion, and from what I have heard from a variety of great monks/nuns, that the notion of rebirth is fundamental to the path to liberation and the religion itself. Of course you can act like a child in a candy store at the pic 'n' mix stand, choosing what you like and take it from the religion, but are you a buddhist, I personally would not say so if rebirth belongs to pretty much every school of buddhism. It has been named a corner stone it is that important. It is the western mind that seems to not accept this idea so easily at first as a vast majority of the western buddhists are intellectual and logical, but see this rebirth idea as mystical BS.

You have only been at it a couple of weeks, buddhism is unlike most religions in the sense it gives you the tools and shows you the path, but suggests for you to go and find out the answers for yourself. Rebirth of course is something you have to have blind faith in for the most part, but you can look into the notion of a stream of never ending consciousness and karma, it all has a major role to play.

Jason

The way it's presented in Theravada, samsara, literally 'wandering on,' is the potential for the arising of human [mental] suffering, while nibbana, literally 'extinguishing,' is the cessation of that potential. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it, "Samsara is a process of creating places, even whole worlds, (this is called becoming) and then wandering through them (this is called birth). Nirvana is the end of this process (emphasis mine)." Nirvana is "realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place ... it's realized through unestablished consciousness."

Kunga

If you're getting stuck on the supernatural, and I don't blame you!, check out this book by Stephen Batchelor. It think it gives a unique take on the Buddha's life. http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/book-confession.html

compassionate_warrior

If you're getting stuck on the supernatural, and I don't blame you!, check out this book by Stephen Batchelor. It think it gives a unique take on the Buddha's life. http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/book-confession.html

Kunga, we recently had a thread dedicated to discussing this book. The thread was titled something like "An Englishman's Journey Through Tibetan and Zen Buddhism". You could look it up (Google is best) and revive it if you want.

Ric

Well I just spent a few hours looking up different ideas on this issue and obviously you can find people saying both things. Ill still learn more and keep meditating and see where I am heading. I just want to make sure I am getting authentic understanding on the subject.

And whatever I end up doing one thing is for sure, I will keep on cultivating mindfulness.

and Tom you cant blame the westerners, I think most of us come with the basic idea of ending suffering, mindfulness and meditation. So when you run across a concept that is supernatural it gives ppl pause, because there is no way of knowing and Im not willing to take anyone's word for it.

thanks guys...

ThailandTom

I never put blame to anybody, it is up to the observer or practitioner to form their own opinion, but I am just recalling on what the buddha said, the person who was meant to be enlightened and founded the religion you are following... He could remember 9,000 eons back through his past lives once being enlightened, something we cannot comprehend. Yes, this is blind faith and it is something you can dismiss or believe in, but pretty much every monk or nun I have ever come across, western, thai, asian whatever, they embrace it fully.

DhammaDhatu

Isnt the Buddha's concept of suffering intrinsically linked to the concept of samsara? Nirvana is escaping Samsara, so it seems if you dont believe in Samsara it seems rather silly to try to escape from it.

any ideas?? am I missing something?

Sometimes people call suicide counselling services because their minds are suffering.

This is the meaning of suffering.

If you are not aware of suffering in your life then to be motivated towards Buddhism may be difficult.

The Buddha said the condition for faith in Buddhism is suffering.

The Buddha compared suffering to having your head or hair on fire.

When one's hair catches fire, like as when Michael Jackson's did the Pepsi TV commercial, there is an urgency to put out the fire.

Best wishes

DhammaDhatu

Isnt the Buddha's concept of suffering intrinsically linked to the concept of samsara?

Yes.

"Samsara" means to spin, cycle & wander. It means the mind spinning around in greed, lust, hatred, anger, confusion, delusion, ignorance, etc, never finding any peace.

All of this spinning is suffering, that is, not peacefulness & contentment.

Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes samsara. A beginning point cannot be found, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are cycling & wandering on.

There comes a time when the great ocean evaporates, dries up & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, cycling & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.

Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake;

in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness.

He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness.

He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.099.than.html

DhammaDhatu

No, you don't have to believe in rebirth. Lots of Buddhists don't.

:wave:

Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism.

Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words.

Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha [suffering].

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Heart_Wood_from_the_Bo_Tree.htm

Ric

Thanks Dhamma,

I have an urgency to put out the fire. I just want to make sure im grabbing a fire extinguisher and not a gasoline tank

DhammaDhatu

The Buddha taught about suffering & its cessation.

Suffering is caused by attachment, greed, hatred, confusion, ignorance, etc

Suffering ends when attachment, greed, hatred, confusion, ignorance, etc, end

The Buddha regarded this causality to be natural truth or fact

However, the Buddha encouraged each interested person to verify this for themselves

All the best

FoibleFull

We are nothing BUT our imprints. If you set imprints for practicing Buddhism, you will carry those imprints with you, and they will direct the circumstances of your rebirth.

You see, even now you have imprints carried over for Buddhism. Otherwise, you might have been born somewhere where you would never have encountered it, or if you did encounter it, it would not interest you in the least.

This is how my teacher (a Tibetan monk) puts it.

Sabre

Hi Ric and others,

We could debate about this for hours (and we do it a lot on this website ) but it won't get you anywhere. Especially if you are a beginner I would simply drop the whole concept of rebirth and keep it open.

Buddhism is not about believing things or about remembering things, it is about realizing things. The Buddha made this quite obvious. If everything was a matter of just pure belief, why would we meditate? How sure are you about seeing a waving smiley over here? :wave: That's how sure you have to be about certain teachings before you can really accept them. They just become reality instead of a belief. The right answers will come in time, not by a decision but by insights.

Of course you need a bit of faith, for faith is a strong mental force that can drive you into the right direction. Not only in Buddhism but in everything you do. If you have faith in a good outcome of something, your activities will be fun and you will have more energy. But put the faith where it has some use. If faith in rebirth doesn't work for you to cultivate Buddhism, fine. A lot of people feel like that. Put faith in yourself, that's far more important.


With metta,
Sabre

Ric

Thanks Sabre,

When I first started it was a bit or a hurdle, but yea the more I read the less there is talk of rebirth so to me it doesnt matter either way. If the Buddha believed in rebirth, thats fine, Ill just disagree with him on that point. Either way it doesnt change his ideas on happiness which is what Im into....