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''Nope... doesn't qualify as far as I'm concerned. For one thing, there's no hierarchy, no Pope to tell me I have to do this or that or that I can't do this or that. Buddhism leaves it to me to decide.''
Unless you become a monk and follow the dharma down to the tee
Okay, I see your point, but aside from the Catholics, there's no such edicts in other Christian churches either (and to be honest, few Catholics here in the States actually follow the Pope's directives).
If I say to you, "If you sit on that park bench, which has just been painted, you'll get wet paint all over your clothes" it's not dogma, is it? it's a precautionary warning. But so many people have to find out for themselves....and they touch the paint, just to see if you're telling the truth. And lo! You were. But now, they have paint on their fingers.....
"See? I did tell you! But would you listen? No. And now? - You know for sure."
HappyMonday,
The assumption that the paint is wet is what can be seen as dogma. Like Vinyl said, what if the paint isnt wet and you were told it is. I am sure you can find Buddhists that practiced for 10+ years and eventually came to the conclusion that it was wrong...
There are two kinds of worldly passions that defile and cover the purity of Buddha-nature.
The first is the passion for analysis and discussion by which people become confused in judgement. The second is the passion for emotional experience by which people's values become confused.
Actually, I think the hell realms are supposed to be real. .
Regarding the Six Realms, they are interpreted as mental states in Tibetan Buddhist teachings(and were also taught that way by the late Chogyam Trungpa)To verify that, here's a course at a Tibetan Buddhist UK monastery..."The Six Realms of Experience"
"Within the Buddhist teachings the six realms of existence are seen as six mind-states which are effectively six particular styles of imprisonment. As human beings we experience all these mind-states daily, although we may have a stronger tendency towards one than the others, depending on our habitual patterns."
OK, but what about the teachings that we can be reborn as Hungry Ghosts, etc.? (I wouldn't take C.T. as authoritative here; his teachings were so non-traditional, often tailored for a contemporary Western audience...)
OK, but what about the teachings that we can be reborn as Hungry Ghosts, etc.? (I wouldn't take C.T. as authoritative here; his teachings were so non-traditional, often tailored for a contemporary Western audience...)
The Hungry Ghost mental state is included in the Tibetan Buddhist course at a Kagyu monastery mentioned at the link I gave.
What I meant to say is that there are teachings that we are to conduct our lives so as not to end up in the hell realms, nor in the godly realms after death. We are to aim for the Enlightened state. This is the traditional teaching.
Rebirth teachings is also useful though not the only view which assists letting go of this life. Essentially it is a formulation of an impermanent fluctional universe which could overwrite someones previous formulation as extreme nihilism or eternalism.
Thus it is not only moral, but is a conceptual stepping stone towards liberation from grasping.
rebirth seems possibly eternalist and can be misunderstood. But in flux there is never any solid wood and never any solid permanent smoke. Just change. With no reference point and thus also stillness.
Its still speculative and irrelevant to practice in the here and now.
.
Buddha said:
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?
Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?'
Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound? "
Its relevant because it can liberate you from eternalism or nihilism. Its like a story. Remember the fish and the water and the fish doesn't realize there is water. Thats a story to give someone a vaster vision. Rebirth gives a vaster vision than eternalism or nihilism.
Its my opinion that it liberates me from eternalism or nihilism? No thats a description of my experience. You of course have your own experience. But I am not making a metaphysical opinion I am relating a personal testimony that may or may not be shared.
It would be an opinion if I said cheese IS good. But if I say I find cheese good that is a description of my experience.
teachings about rebirth after death are for morality purposes.
Right, this point has been raised before, on another thread. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean. Teachings about rebirth are teachings about rebirth, aren't they? It means the Buddha taught rebirth. Enlightenment is about ending the cycle of death and rebirth, isn't it? Or do all practitioners expect to become enlightened in the current lifetime?
Comments
HappyMonday,
The assumption that the paint is wet is what can be seen as dogma. Like Vinyl said, what if the paint isnt wet and you were told it is. I am sure you can find Buddhists that practiced for 10+ years and eventually came to the conclusion that it was wrong...
DEFILEMENTS
I
HUMAN DEFILEMENTS
There are two kinds of worldly passions that defile and cover the purity of Buddha-nature.
The first is the passion for analysis and discussion by which people become confused in judgement. The second is the passion for emotional experience by which people's values become confused.
"Within the Buddhist teachings the six realms of existence are seen as six mind-states which are effectively six particular styles of imprisonment. As human beings we experience all these mind-states daily, although we may have a stronger tendency towards one than the others, depending on our habitual patterns."
http://www.samyeling.org/index/samyeling-course-action?id=142&course_title=The+Six+Realms+of+Experience
(I wouldn't take C.T. as authoritative here; his teachings were so non-traditional, often tailored for a contemporary Western audience...)
http://kiloby.com/writings.php?offset=0&writingid=292
The Buddha taught how to overcome ignorance and mental suffering in this lifetime.
Rebirth teachings are for the purpose of morality.
.
Thus it is not only moral, but is a conceptual stepping stone towards liberation from grasping.
rebirth seems possibly eternalist and can be misunderstood. But in flux there is never any solid wood and never any solid permanent smoke. Just change. With no reference point and thus also stillness.
Its still speculative and irrelevant to practice in the here and now.
.
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?
Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?'
Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound? "
(MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html
stepping stone.
.
It would be an opinion if I said cheese IS good. But if I say I find cheese good that is a description of my experience.
There is no enlightenment without morality. If your sole effort was to be moral you could become enlightened with only that motivation alone.