Karma, enlightenment and the Dharma

Now-Is-reality

Maha-kammavibhanga Sutta
19. "So, Ananda, there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)."

Mirror of the Dharma
10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"


That quote preceded a discussion between Ananda and the Buddha where the Buddha explained that it is neccesary to see through the mirror of Dhamma to ultimately understand that once there is seeing that one will no longer question karma, rebirth or nirvana, then there will be unwaivering faith in the buddha (who spoke the truth) the dharma (the truth itself) and the sangha (those who have seen the truth). And based on this then I can understand how even though we have a view on karma and rebirth, and we practice right view, loving-kindness, compassion and all of that jazz, we can still misinterpret or hold these too high as ultimate rather than letting them go to create what is actually and ultimately no karma.

That is we have these teachings, but that is all they are, just teachings. Let them be as they are and trust in the buddha, the dharma, and the sangha, rather than clinging to these ideas. Our path itself can become our hinderance to the truth and to letting go and just being.

Sabre

Hi Now-is-reality.

Well said. I remember a sutta in which the Buddha also said attachment to his words (dhamma) is probably one of the most dangerous attachment of all. I don't remember the particular sutta, though. Could also have been a commentary. Maybe somebody can find it.

With metta,
Sabre

federica

Well, why don't you look for it and find it?

Sabre

Because I don't know how Forgot the exact words.

And I don't know them by head, because I'm not attached to them.

Now-Is-reality

Because I don't know how Forgot the exact words.

And I don't know them by head, because I'm not attached to them.

heheheheh.

Oh and sorry Fed if i posted this in the wrong forum... I AM TRYING! XD

DhammaDhatu

Maha-kammavibhanga Sutta

This sutta is for the most part unrelated to enlightenment, although it helps our "world view"

Enlightenment is directly related to the third kind of karma, namely, "the karma that ends karma".

Enlightenment is not directly related to good & bad karma.

And what is the cessation of kamma?

Just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html

andyrobyn

Hi Now-is-reality.

Well said. I remember a sutta in which the Buddha also said attachment to his words (dhamma) is probably one of the most dangerous attachment of all. I don't remember the particular sutta, though. Could also have been a commentary. Maybe somebody can find it.


With metta,
Sabre

I would suggest that attachment to what is understood from what we are told and read / what wise words we can read and contemplate could be seen as "dangerous" as understanding and thinking about " it ' isn't the same as action or doing " it" for ourselves.

federica

Oh and sorry Fed if i posted this in the wrong forum... I AM TRYING! XD

You are.

EXTREMELY trying.....

:rolleyes:

I liked the post.

DhammaDhatu

Now-Is-reality

Maha-kammavibhanga Sutta

This sutta is for the most part unrelated to enlightenment, although it helps our "world view"

Enlightenment is directly related to the third kind of karma, namely, "the karma that ends karma".

Enlightenment is not directly related to good & bad karma.

And what is the cessation of kamma?

Just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html

Yeah I couldn't find the quote I wanted in that, but I used the quote I had from that sutta to illustrate that people get caught up in ideas. Like "I do good, there there will be a good outcome, right?!" But that's not what is important, you can't do right to better yourself or your practice, because then you're dually attaching to the self as well as enlightenment. When all is understand, all action will not be with an intention as such, but rather just be. No karma. As I said "we can still misinterpret or hold these too high as ultimate rather than letting them go to create what is actually and ultimately no karma." Just some speculation on why it is important not to attach to ones practice.

Now-Is-reality

You are.

EXTREMELY trying.....

:rolleyes:

I liked the post.

SO... that means I am off the hook then....?

DhammaDhatu

There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe.

This passage does not actually include the term "rebirth".

The Pali is: khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto

Khīṇa [pp. of khīyati, Pass. to khayati] destroyed, exhausted, removed, wasted, gone; in cpds. ˚ -- often to be translated "without." It is mostly applied to the destruction of the passions (āsavā) & demerit (kamma). āsavakhīṇa one whose cravings are destroyed Sn 370, cp. 162

DhammaDhatu

Yeah I couldn't find the quote I wanted in that..

very useful book on karma, here: http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma.htm

Now-Is-reality

Well from the translation i found :P

federica

You are.

EXTREMELY trying.....

:rolleyes:

I liked the post.

SO... that means I am off the hook then....?

For now, Meeester Bond.....

:grr:

Now-Is-reality

There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe.

This passage does not actually include the term "rebirth".

The Pali is: khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto

Khīṇa [pp. of khīyati, Pass. to khayati] destroyed, exhausted, removed, wasted, gone; in cpds. ˚ -- often to be translated "without." It is mostly applied to the destruction of the passions (āsavā) & demerit (kamma). āsavakhīṇa one whose cravings are destroyed Sn 370, cp. 162

Here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

The Mirror of the Dhamma
8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"
9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?
"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'
"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, 18 inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'
"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'
"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.
10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

federica

So this is a question of translation, not error in perception or personal interpretation.
We need to differentiate, don't we?

ThailandTom

Hmmm, this thread has really made me think. I do believe in rebirth, but then I consider what I heard Ajahn Chah say in an interview he gave back in the 70s or 80s. The interviewer was from the BBC and was interviewing him out in the forests of Thailand, the BBC guy said, 'So what you are saying is, if you want to reach enlightenment, you have to not desire to reach it or strive to reach it.'' With a kind of sarcastic surprising tone. Ajahn Chah replied with a laugh and continued to smile as he often did, and confirmed the guys question.

I have also heard monks say that you should not take anybodies word for truth, the real truth is there and for you to find. Attachments of all natures are unskillful to different degrees, so I guess even attaching to the Buddhas word is unskillful.

I will continue to believe in rebirth, but I guess I won't make any effort to defend such a concept or to dwell on something that is impossible to know as of now and that will hinder my practice. It would only contribute to my ego I presume..

Thank you for the post OP,
Tom

Now-Is-reality

Hmm I like the "should not take anybodies word for truth" that is a nice perspective as all truth we will here from others is likely to be subjective.

I think ultimately ideas such as rebirth, enlightenment, etc., are unnecessary... however with like say the eightfold path, I don't think that means to completely dismiss it, but rather follow without depending on your development in following or practicing.


The interesting thing about truth, and what we hold to be truth, is that often times we becomes so distracted with the idea and proving the idea to ourselves and others that it distracts from what is. Christians try to prove a god, just as many buddhists defend rebirth. But isn't it all trivial?
That is if you were to follow the eightfold path and such merely to become enlightened or to be reborn into a higher state, doesn't that just compound your attachment. I don't think our practice is to confirm and argue the philosophy, because then we find ourselves attached to the idea, as well as attempting to confirm our ideas having been right all along. It's more delusional. Just some personal thoughts.