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buddhists talk a lot about cause and effect; karma is afaiu based on it.
but karma is a phenomenon of unenlightened beings still trapped in samsara (again, afaik).
so per buddhist understanding, is cause/effect ultimately just another samsaric illusion ... like self/other or any other form of duality?
When Buddhists try to discuss something like karma, much confusion arises from mistaking universal karma, the law of cause and effect, with the concept of good and bad karma, or the personal decisions that keep us mired in samasara.
Buddha taught a way to escape from the wheel of good and bad karma, the personal actions that power samsara or the cycle of suffering and rebirth for each being. Thus the teaching about duality and no-self is designed to cut through the illusion of good and bad that gives rise to suffering.
As long as Buddha had a physical body, he remained subject to karma in the meaning of the laws of the universe and of course his actions had consequences. Eating spoiled meat was an action that is supposed to have had the consequence of killing him, for instance.
Let's approach this from one more angle. We use the finger pointing at the moon to illustrate the difference between the personal and the universal. Take a common term like dharma or dhamma, which has two separate meanings. Universal Dharma is the moon, and dharma is the finger. We have Dharma, with a big "D", which is the universal law of nature. It is reality, all rolled up into one big concept. Then there is dharma, little "d" which is the sutras and oral teachings of the Buddha and the many people who contributed to his teaching.
Likewise, we have Karma, the universal law of cause and effect, and karma, the personal rule that actions motivated by selfish desires tend to cause more suffering in an endless loop.
Of course, one can't have supermundane wrong view.
True, but to not attach to a view is not the same holding the opposite of that view.
Of course!
But I think all Buddhist have a sense of karma. Meditation is an action that brings good results. I think anybody who has practiced for a while can agree on that. Following the precepts, the same.
Sutta Pitaka's list of ten fetters The Pali canon's Sutta Pitaka identifies ten "fetters of becoming":[6]
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7] doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[8] attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[9] sensual desire (kāmacchando)[10] ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[11] lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)[12] lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm (arūparāgo)[13] conceit (māno)[14][15] restlessness (uddhaccaŋ)[16] ignorance (avijjā)[17
Sutta Pitaka's list of ten fetters The Pali canon's Sutta Pitaka identifies ten "fetters of becoming":[6]
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7] doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[8] attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[9] sensual desire (kāmacchando)[10] ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[11] lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)[12] lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm (arūparāgo)[13] conceit (māno)[14][15] restlessness (uddhaccaŋ)[16] ignorance (avijjā)[17
@xabir Just wondering if the Advaita "I am" is equivalent to conceit or asmi-mana.
"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self."
With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, "I am" has not been overcome, although I don't assume that "I am this."'"
Sutta Pitaka's list of ten fetters The Pali canon's Sutta Pitaka identifies ten "fetters of becoming":[6]
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7] doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[8] attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[9] sensual desire (kāmacchando)[10] ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[11] lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)[12] lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm (arūparāgo)[13] conceit (māno)[14][15] restlessness (uddhaccaŋ)[16] ignorance (avijjā)[17
I wonder what the difference here is between self-belief and conceit. I think that self-belief is self evident in meaning, although harder to achieve, that is the elimination of the belief in "I" as a inherent, self contained entity.
But I think that conceit is "I have realised such and such yet I doubt others have" and that after the cessation of conceit we have "I have realised such and such and others have too". Of course in this context when "I" is mentioned a designation has been made.
So, if I am not mistaken (which is highly possible) the path beyond conceit involves recognition and belief in the ability of others. Of course you guys already know this
I don't know if you have been following dho. But a couple of practitioners from daniel's forum who after realising anatta have further progresed and achieved elimination of greed, hatred, fear, basically all passionate emotions. Knowing that this is possible, Daniel is personally having this goal in mind - he is well on the way. He no longer sees the fetter model as being unachievable or unrealistic.
However the method they are practicing is actualism and it is a lil complex for me to elaborate but you may well have already known what was going on. I have written a document comparing actualism and buddhism somewhere on my blog as well.
Personally, though I never practiced actualism but have noticed a gradual reduction of passionate emotions such that atm situations that would have given rise to fear, irritation, anger, etc might either not arise or manifest as a nonaffective bodily response or sensation. For example if a huge explosion sound arises there might be a sense of bodily adrenaline but no psychological fear manifests. Again I would like to stress that I still consider myself far from the goal of Buddhahood and will not like to make any early claims about anything but suffice to say, I and Thusness (who since many years ago told me personally from his experience how overcoming sexual lust and other fetters was truly possible as a further progress from the initial realization of anatta) do not reject the validity of the fetter model as we truly see that it is possible.
For example if a huge explosion sound arises there might be a sense of bodily adrenaline but no psychological fear manifests. Again I would like to stress that I still consider myself far from the goal of Buddhahood
Outwardly, it looks the same, but inwardly there is only calm, interesting. Unless this is secret for some reason I think it would be good for someone who has gone through the stages to document the experiential side of the path, rather than the causal side. But maybe the relinquishment of the fetters is both causal and resultant, I suppose it would be.
As a partitioner progresses on this path, does the desire arise to be reborn for the sake of others? My teacher has hinted that even Shravaka-Buddhas and Pratyeka-Buddhas will effortlessly make their way onto the path of the Bodhisattva-Buddhas at the appropriate time.
According to Mahayana the arhats who did not give rise to bodhisattva vows while alive will be roused by the buddha from their nirvana to continue the path.
It is not that they will surely on their own accord give rise to bodhicitta. They need a push from others.
For example if a huge explosion sound arises there might be a sense of bodily adrenaline but no psychological fear manifests. Again I would like to stress that I still consider myself far from the goal of Buddhahood
Outwardly, it looks the same, but inwardly there is only calm, interesting. Unless this is secret for some reason I think it would be good for someone who has gone through the stages to document the experiential side of the path, rather than the causal side. But maybe the relinquishment of the fetters is both causal and resultant, I suppose it would be.
As a partitioner progresses on this path, does the desire arise to be reborn for the sake of others? My teacher has hinted that even Shravaka-Buddhas and Pratyeka-Buddhas will effortlessly make their way onto the path of the Bodhisattva-Buddhas at the appropriate time.
@whoknows The Buddha also didn't tell much about the experiential side because it is just focusing on a goal rather than on the means and that doesn't really help anyone.
The Buddha also didn't tell much about the experiential side because it is just focusing on a goal rather than on the means and that doesn't really help anyone.
But from a practical point of view it is sometimes good to check the signposts to make sure you're going the right way. If I want to drive from Melbourne to Sydney do I just make sure that I keep driving without stopping or do I make sure I'm going in the right direction? Then again, in Buddhism, that's the role of the teacher. I don't know why I feel that this is an issue, its more intuitive than intellectual. In Mahamudra: the moonlight these signposts are put into writing, though in some cases in quite cryptic form, thanks to the great foresight of Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in the 1500's. I sometimes wonder if other paths have the signposts documented? Or maybe this is something uniquely Kagyu.
The Buddha also didn't tell much about the experiential side because it is just focusing on a goal rather than on the means and that doesn't really help anyone.
But from a practical point of view it is sometimes good to check the signposts to make sure you're going the right way. If I want to drive from Melbourne to Sydney do I just make sure that I keep driving without stopping or do I make sure I'm going in the right direction? Then again, in Buddhism, that's the role of the teacher. I don't know why I feel that this is an issue, its more intuitive than intellectual. In Mahamudra: the moonlight these signposts are put into writing, though in some cases in quite cryptic form, thanks to the great foresight of Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in the 1500's. I sometimes wonder if other paths have the signposts documented? Or maybe this is something uniquely Kagyu.
The signposts could be the dept of your meditation and your feeling of inner peace in daily life.
Is it not that karma is the law of causality, but it has to involve an agent within the process, an intention. So a tsunami for instance would not be a result of karma.
Comments
Buddha taught a way to escape from the wheel of good and bad karma, the personal actions that power samsara or the cycle of suffering and rebirth for each being. Thus the teaching about duality and no-self is designed to cut through the illusion of good and bad that gives rise to suffering.
As long as Buddha had a physical body, he remained subject to karma in the meaning of the laws of the universe and of course his actions had consequences. Eating spoiled meat was an action that is supposed to have had the consequence of killing him, for instance.
Let's approach this from one more angle. We use the finger pointing at the moon to illustrate the difference between the personal and the universal. Take a common term like dharma or dhamma, which has two separate meanings. Universal Dharma is the moon, and dharma is the finger. We have Dharma, with a big "D", which is the universal law of nature. It is reality, all rolled up into one big concept. Then there is dharma, little "d" which is the sutras and oral teachings of the Buddha and the many people who contributed to his teaching.
Likewise, we have Karma, the universal law of cause and effect, and karma, the personal rule that actions motivated by selfish desires tend to cause more suffering in an endless loop.
Have I sufficiently confused everyone?
But I think all Buddhist have a sense of karma. Meditation is an action that brings good results. I think anybody who has practiced for a while can agree on that. Following the precepts, the same.
Btw the ns map seems to have come from visudhimagga. The only map the buddha taught was the fetter map.
The Pali canon's Sutta Pitaka identifies ten "fetters of becoming":[6]
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7]
doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[8]
attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[9]
sensual desire (kāmacchando)[10]
ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[11]
lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)[12]
lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm (arūparāgo)[13]
conceit (māno)[14][15]
restlessness (uddhaccaŋ)[16]
ignorance (avijjā)[17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment
@xabir
Just wondering if the Advaita "I am" is equivalent to conceit or asmi-mana.
"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self."
With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, "I am" has not been overcome, although I don't assume that "I am this."'"
http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Conceit_I_Am.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html
I think even a Sotapanna has realized Anatta, but has not removed the latent tendencies, defilements, and sense of self
Also, you do not have to go through the advaita I Am phase before realizing anatta, and Buddha's method in pali canon does not teach such a path
Zen and thusness and me does
But I think that conceit is "I have realised such and such yet I doubt others have" and that after the cessation of conceit we have "I have realised such and such and others have too". Of course in this context when "I" is mentioned a designation has been made.
So, if I am not mistaken (which is highly possible) the path beyond conceit involves recognition and belief in the ability of others. Of course you guys already know this
???
However the method they are practicing is actualism and it is a lil complex for me to elaborate but you may well have already known what was going on. I have written a document comparing actualism and buddhism somewhere on my blog as well.
Personally, though I never practiced actualism but have noticed a gradual reduction of passionate emotions such that atm situations that would have given rise to fear, irritation, anger, etc might either not arise or manifest as a nonaffective bodily response or sensation. For example if a huge explosion sound arises there might be a sense of bodily adrenaline but no psychological fear manifests. Again I would like to stress that I still consider myself far from the goal of Buddhahood and will not like to make any early claims about anything but suffice to say, I and Thusness (who since many years ago told me personally from his experience how overcoming sexual lust and other fetters was truly possible as a further progress from the initial realization of anatta) do not reject the validity of the fetter model as we truly see that it is possible.
As a partitioner progresses on this path, does the desire arise to be reborn for the sake of others? My teacher has hinted that even Shravaka-Buddhas and Pratyeka-Buddhas will effortlessly make their way onto the path of the Bodhisattva-Buddhas at the appropriate time.
It is not that they will surely on their own accord give rise to bodhicitta. They need a push from others.
I never knew that. I sometimes wonder whether the buddha is pushing already.
The Buddha also didn't tell much about the experiential side because it is just focusing on a goal rather than on the means and that doesn't really help anyone.
But from a practical point of view it is sometimes good to check the signposts to make sure you're going the right way. If I want to drive from Melbourne to Sydney do I just make sure that I keep driving without stopping or do I make sure I'm going in the right direction? Then again, in Buddhism, that's the role of the teacher. I don't know why I feel that this is an issue, its more intuitive than intellectual. In Mahamudra: the moonlight these signposts are put into writing, though in some cases in quite cryptic form, thanks to the great foresight of Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in the 1500's. I sometimes wonder if other paths have the signposts documented? Or maybe this is something uniquely Kagyu.
Theravada - four paths from suttas, fetter model
Four paths and sixteen nanas from visudhimagga, technical model
Mahayana - ten bodhisattva bhumis from the sutras
Tozan's five ranks, Zen tradition
Ten Oxherding pictures, Zen tradition
Vajrayana - ten/thirteen bhumis from tantras
Four yogas, Mahamudra
(there is no person or thing so the cause is non-self- Anatta)
result of the cause/seeing/passa/clinging aggregates = effect
( this is changing so effect is impermanent)
if one can be Mindful of the above then he/she is in the present moment
and
there is no greed or hate
then
Dukka Nirodha (No suffering)
in that case most important thing is to practice Mindfulness