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Quick explanation of something said by the Buddha

EpicurusEpicurus
edited April 2011 in Buddhism Basics
"Should one find a man who points out faults and who reproves, let him follow such a wise and sagacious person as one would a guide to hidden treasure. It is always better, and never worse, to cultivate such an association."

What exactly does this mean? That it is good to point out faults and reprove?

Comments

  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Where did you find it?
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    What is the source of this quote, please?
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    I think that's not the point. I guess he means it is good to find a teacher who can point out what work you still have to do. For example your behavior may be faulty and somebody makes a point about it. You'll feel offended, but if you "follow the guide", you might see he or she is right. But again I think he means a wise teacher (like himself or other enlightened beings).

    I am not 100 percent sure, though.

    With metta,
    Sabre
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    That it is good to point out faults and reprove?
    No, that it's good to associate with people who will make you aware of your faults. Like in Burns's second-most famous quote about wishing for the power to see ourselves through the eyes of others.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    First line, here.

    http://www.pathofdhamma.com/wiseman.html

    I thought it was the Dhammapada.

    In context, the Buddha gave instructions on many things, including how to distinguish a fool from a wise man. This is specifically relevant to finding a Wise Man (or a good teacher).

    So in modern parlance, when you find a wise man, and he happens to pick up on the incorrect stuff you're doing, and puts you right, stick with it kid, under his tutelage, you'll go far.

    Would you not want someone Wise to steer you in the right direction?

    Bonus!
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Found it:

    Dhp VI
    PTS: Dhp 76-89
    Panditavagga: The Wise
    translated from the Pali by
    Acharya Buddharakkhita
    © 1996–2011
    Alternate translation: Thanissaro


    76. Should one find a man who points out faults and who reproves, let him follow such a wise and sagacious person as one would a guide to hidden treasure. It is always better, and never worse, to cultivate such an association.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.06.budd.html

    Good question, E.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    That it is good to point out faults and reprove?
    No, that it's good to associate with people who will make you aware of your faults. Like in Burns's second-most famous quote about wishing for the power to see ourselves through the eyes of others.
    "O wad some Power the giftie gie us
    To see oursels as ithers see us!"

    I think is what you are referring to.... :)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Found it:

    I found it first......

    :shake:

    :D
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    ...I think he means a wise teacher (like himself or other enlightened beings).
    No, he means any dumb jerk. Check out the companion Atisha took to Tibet, because he anticipated that he would be venerated by the Tibetans.

    Seems unlikely that this teaching was meant for everyone, though. It doesn't require anyone to sit still for abuse they can't experience peacefully. But if you can experience it peacefully, it is excellent training.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    My wife is good at it too.
  • EpicurusEpicurus
    I'd love to someone in real life I'd consider worthy of following. I never thought about it before, but I never had a feeling I was a student...I never pledged my soul to anyone's teachings on anything I deemed worthy. Hmm....

    Anyway, thanks for the input people.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    No, he means any dumb jerk.
    I can't tell from your tone if you're kidding.

    In the context of the Dhammapada, he seems to mean a wise and discerning teacher. Be willing to let go of your view and accept the view of a teacher who's discernment is well sharpened, and their view of our actions will help us move away from unskillful behavior. The lines that follow the OPs question talk about how to handle "the dumb jerk". Namely, walk away.


  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    I can't tell from your tone if you're kidding.
    Not kidding; I was mistaken about the context. Thanks for pointing that out. (I stand by what I said about dumb jerks, though.)
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    Not kidding; I was mistaken about the context. Thanks for pointing that out. (I stand by what I said about dumb jerks, though.)
    :) I know what you mean. I try to encounter them carefully, and still I spin when they act like "jerks". I wonder if jerks appear as jerks because we think of them like jerks. Lessons lessons everywhere, and not a breath to breathe.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    "Your worst enemy is also your greatest teacher." :)
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    jerks appear as jerks because we think of them like jerks
    have no doubt

  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje

    "O wad some Power the giftie gie us
    To see oursels as ithers see us!"

    I think is what you are referring to.... :)
    You didn't attribute this quote.

    Besides, I don't think Robert Burns was a Buddhist. :eek2:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator


    You didn't attribute this quote.
    No, but fivebells did....
    Besides, I don't think Robert Burns was a Buddhist. :eek2:
    Should he have been....?

    :scratch:
  • NOTaGangstaNOTaGangsta
    Anyone who attacks our ego and our false self is a good teacher. Having said that, I was pretty mad with my teacher for pwning me about my faults at the time! Helped me grow alot!
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Fivebells,

    Pema chodron talks about 'the bengali tea boy' in her tapes which I guess was Atishas companion. I think that it had something to do with Atisha's learning of tonglen in indonesia and the bengali teaboy was related to that practice.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Pema chodron talks about 'the bengali tea boy' in her tapes which I guess was Atishas companion.
    I think that's right.
    I think that it had something to do with Atisha's learning of tonglen in indonesia and the bengali teaboy was related to that practice.
    Yes, it helps to have some adversity to work with in mind training.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Hi All,

    I have heard a story of a very young novice who admonished an Arahant for wearing his robes in a messy way. According to the story, the Arahant went behind a bush, adjusted his robe and thanked the young novice.

    Anyway, just thought I'd share that as it appears the Arahant in this story was applying the teaching of this Dhammapada verse. It also goes to show that even Arahants are not beyond criticism and even young novices may have something useful to say.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Fivebells,
    Seems unlikely that this teaching was meant for everyone, though. It doesn't require anyone to sit still for abuse they can't experience peacefully. But if you can experience it peacefully, it is excellent training.
    I think the benefits of listening to those who criticize us are (at least) two-fold:

    1) We have an opportunity to practice listening, open-mindedness, patience, humility, etc.

    2) The contents of what they are saying may actually be beneficial for us, even if it rubs us the wrong way at first and we are not peaceful as a result of hearing it. Upon reflection we might see that their admonishment had some truth to it and if we take their criticism we might be able to make the necessary adjustments to our attitudes and behaviour.

    It might be the case that, after applying honest self-scrutiny, we see that their criticism was actually invalid and that the second benefit does not apply. In which case at least we still potentially had the opportunity for the cultivating the first benefit.

    Metta,

    Guy
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