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Questions about Tulkus

TakuanTakuan Veteran
edited April 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Hello all,

I was reading up on Steven Seagall and read that he is considered to be a "tulku". My question is what exactly is a tulku? Is it merely a reincarnated lama or is there more to it?

Also, I noticed that it seems that in the beginning this phenomenon was concentrated in Tibet or places where Tibetan Buddhism was prominent. Now there are children in Western countries being recognized as tulkus. Is this special form of reincarnation restricted to places where Tibetan Buddhism is known? By this, I mean is it possible for someone to be a tulku outside of Tibetan influence? For example, can a lama choose to be reincarnated in a country like Ghana, which has had very little exposure to Buddhism let alone Tibetan Buddhism.

I must say that, although I am not a staunch believer in reincarnation, I find the whole notion of a lama actually having the power to choose his rebirth very interesting.

Comments

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    "Tulku" is an authoritarian designation which only notionally designates some kind of spiritual attainment. It is essentially a political appointment. There are tulkus who happen to also be valuable teachers, but it's pretty much a coincidence.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Its always a reincarnated lama. Of high spiritual attainment. But if the tulku is not educated in buddhism he wont 'remember'. Steven Segal is not a teacher though he has an affinity to learn about bodhicitta.

    It could be anyone declared a tulku.
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Watch the movie "Kundun" about the His Holiness the Dalai Lama to find out something about Tulku's. Although @fivebells description might have some degree of correctness, I believe that it is overly biased in a negative way. But my teacher's a Tulku so maybe I'm biased myself :)

    Normally Tulkus are found by several means: letters left and hidden by the deceased, visions by a master, good old fashioned detective work. A Tulku also needs to pass a test where they pick out items from their previous life against fake items. This is done after the Tulku reaches a certain age, obviously.

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Its always a reincarnated lama. Of high spiritual attainment.
    I don't blame the subtle mindstream currently known as Steven Segal for his rather strange rebirth. When I get reborn, I'm also angling to come back as someone who makes movies depicting violent assaults against people who desperately deserve it. The chicks dig it, man.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited April 2011
    This is done after the Tulku reaches a certain age, obviously.

    The Dalai Lama was chosen and 'tested' at the age of two.

    Source = "The Story of Tibet, conversations with the Dalai Lama" by Thomas Laird.

    It wasn't uncommon for tulku tests(choosing an item they liked which belonged to the previous lama) to be done on children under 5.

  • DazzleDazzle
    I would imagine it would be easy to manouver those tests if one wanted to. For example the most interesting looking item being the one belonging to the previous lama - or the item nearest to a tiny child being the one it picked up first.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    Does tulku implies that the lama/other chosed the rebirth? or it is just an acknowledgement?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Even though we may disbelieve or not agree with a specific practice or belief, it is not our place - or becoming of us as Buddhists - to knock it, or make derogatory statements (however subtle, thinly veiled or obscure).
    Focus on the question on topic.

    Whether Steven Segal decided to constructively connect with his tulku status or not, was entirely up to him.
    Some are apparently born into situations where following up on the status is customary and possible. Others, it seems, are not.

    According to Sogyal Rinpoche, a catholic nun in a western order was located and found to be a reincarnation of a previous Lama.
    Naturally, she decided to not pursue that particular avenue of devotion, but the fact that she was leading a holy life seemed in any case to be a good thing.

    If this is what Tibetan and Mahayana Buddhists believe, then that's that.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Does tulku implies that the lama/other chosed the rebirth? or it is just an acknowledgement?
    It is an understanding that the Lama had the choice.
    This is the difference between re-birth and reincarnation, in the strictest sense, as discussed by Buddhists.

    Reincarnation is achieved by a lama who has attained an elevated status of existence, practice, authority and reputation.
    re-birth is for hoi poloi, like us! ;)

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Whether Steven Segal decided to constructively connect with his tulku status or not, was entirely up to him.
    Some are apparently born into situations where following up on the status is customary and possible. Others, it seems, are not.
    You could explain Segal's behavior in two ways: The mindstream reborn in Segal could be possessed of an extremely obscure and dubious spiritual attainment, or the spiritual attainment has not survived the rebirth. The first option makes a mockery of the assertion that a Tulku is a rebirth of a highly spiritually attained lama, the second makes a mockery of any meaningful identity surviving post-mortem rebirth.
    If this is what Tibetan and Mahayana Buddhists believe, then that's that.
    And if it seems ridiculous, then that's that, too.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I don't doubt that.
    but here is not the place to discuss it.
    A thread titled - "do people believe reincarnation as a Tulku is a logical and possible premise or a ridiculous one?" would be the place to discuss it. Then we could take it further, I'm sure.

    A Tulku's Mindstream is not permanent. Nothing is.
    It's like learning to do anything. You don't keep up the training, your proficiency falls by the wayside.
    vestiges of the talent remain, but over time, unless practice is increased in a dedicated sense, then you cannot call yourself adept at that particular skill.

    The Panchen Lama (if he is still alive and amongst us) probably remembers nothing of his past, to a suitable degree for him to be able to resume his post.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited April 2011
    I was told that Seagal bought his tulku status, and that this wasn't uncommon in Tibet. I've heard that the process was manipulated, that some of the tulkus were chosen from among relatives of the previous tulku, to keep power in the family, and for other political reasons. Western children recognized as tulkus are usually children of followers of Tibetan Buddhism. Glaring mistakes are sometimes made; the Spanish boy recognized as a reincarnation of Lama Yeshe resigned his tulku status, and in the 20th century, Gedun Chopel, enthroned as a tulku in Eastern Tibet, resigned. The 6th Dalai Lama also didn't behave appropriately to his status, raising questions as to whether his selection was in error. Were some of the selections over the centuries bona-fide? Were any of them bona-fide? We'll never know for sure.

    The Panchen Lama has been officiating at ceremonies in China the last year or so, it seems they've been trotting him out now and then. He's been giving speeches about "national unity".
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think I'd like - and be very interested - to see references to the above. if you could find them, it would be interesting....
    Particularly the Panchen lama being trotted out now and then....
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Yes, here we go: for a photo and review of his English language speech at a World Buddhist Congress:
    news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/28/content_11088696.htm
    (if you Google him, you could probably find more.)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Thank you.
    I hate to ask the obvious, but how do we know it's the same guy who disappeared/was kidnapped?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    "I don't blame the subtle mindstream currently known as Steven Segal for his rather strange rebirth. When I get reborn, I'm also angling to come back as someone who makes movies depicting violent assaults against people who desperately deserve it. The chicks dig it, man."

    Yeah you can tell he is very spiritual because of the cool ponytail. He can probably also shoot lightning out of his abdominal muscles.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Fivebells,

    Seriously I believe Segal has an affinity for buddhist teachings. But the conditioning of his life has been different from lamas. He hasn't studied buddhism since age five.

    Lets separate education from being. What are you refering to when you say 'mindstream'? My lama says that the continuity from one moment to another is only apparent truth. That the mind connects the two moments or fabricates. Which is something realized in meditation.

    As an example, Segal might have a deep inkling of my latter statement, but he would not remember a meditation experience of that particular insight.

    Segals teachers have instructed him to cultivate bodhicitta in this life and he takes that seriously or says. I think its confusion to think an actor is the exact character he portrays. Is anthony hopkins really flesh eating?

    Remember the story of the prostitute who always studied the dharma in her spare time. And the monk who in his spare time always looked over at the brothel and fantasized.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    My lama says that the continuity from one moment to another is only apparent truth. That the mind connects the two moments or fabricates. Which is something realized in meditation.
    Wonderful, so is meditation although to say so seems a bit wrong.
  • EpicurusEpicurus
    Why would a buddhist kick ass on screen all of those years?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    bear in mind he's always a good guy, kicking bad-ass.... I believe he even joined a Police unit IRL, to get a taste of kicking 'real' bad-ass....
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Thank you.
    I hate to ask the obvious, but how do we know it's the same guy who disappeared/was kidnapped?
    We don't for sure, except that he appears to be in the right ball-park age-wise. I don't know if an expert would be able to match characteristics from his photo as a 6-year-old, when he was last photographed before his kidnapping, and the current photo. Have there been any reports or suspicions of the Chinese introducing a substitute Panchen Lama?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Blimey, yeah.....

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-worlds-youngest-political-prisoner-446248.html

    http://www.reversespins.com/boylama.html

    http://www.bilerico.com/2007/04/long_live_the_1_1.php
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    We need to not go off-topic though.

    Is this off-topic?
    If it is, we need to begin a different thread.....
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    What are you refering to when you say 'mindstream'?
    That's just a term I keep hearing when I ask people what it is which is supposed to identify past life to present life in the doctrine of post-mortem rebirth. Don't want to turn this into another rebirth thread, though.
    ...the conditioning of his life has been different from lamas. He hasn't studied buddhism since age five.

    ...Segal might have a deep inkling of my latter statement, but he would not remember a meditation experience of that particular insight.
    There are always speculative post-hoc metaphysical explanations, but a reasonable person weighs the plausibility of all the possible explanations on the table. If this was a Christian context, and a senior member of an august Christian institution was handing out religious titles to people with no apparent merit except that they bring in bags of money, don't you think corruption would be a more plausible explanation than that God had blessed the newly-title benefactors in some obscure fashion?

    Any sufficiently large religious institution is a political and economic entity, as well as a spiritual one, and is therefore prone to political and economic corruption. It is naive to pretend that this is not the case, particularly for a religious institution like the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy which wields enormous temporal political power. For someone who is plugged into that hierarchy, like you are, it is dangerously naive, because it makes you an easy target for manipulation.
    Segals teachers have instructed him to cultivate bodhicitta in this life and he takes that seriously or says. I think its confusion to think an actor is the exact character he portrays. Is anthony hopkins really flesh eating?

    Remember the story of the prostitute who always studied the dharma in her spare time. And the monk who in his spare time always looked over at the brothel and fantasized.
    I'm sure he's a great guy. I loved his movies when I was a kid. But the idea that he's connected in some way to some past individual of great spiritual attainment makes a mockery of either the past attainment, or the purported connection. He's exhibit A for why tulku-hood is primarily a political phenomenon, rather than a religious one.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Can you substantiate that Segal has donated millions to Tibetan Buddhism? And that the reason to give him the title of tulku was due to desire for a donation? Suspicion yes. But trial without jury no. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me without connecting the dots of how it all works.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    In buddhism it also constitues unwholesome action possibly (5,7,9) though perhaps not I am not a judge. http://www.friendsoftheheart.com/meditation_resources/left/actions.shtml
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    In buddhism it also constitues unwholesome action possibly (5,7,9) though perhaps not I am not a judge. http://www.friendsoftheheart.com/meditation_resources/left/actions.shtml
    Jeffrey, I don't get the "unwholesome action" list. Everything on the list looks like a re-phrasing of the wholesome actions, rather than the opposite of the wholesome actions.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Yes the unwholesome actions are the opposite of the wholesome. Actually the negative actions should be refrained from and the wholesome should be engaged. Example is refrain from lying but do tell the truth.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me without connecting the dots of how it all works.
    It's a question of the beliefs you start from, I guess. If you start from a firm belief in the traditional Buddhist cosmology, then of course Segal's a valid tulku. If you start from a more agnostic position, though, it looks and smells like very prosaic institutional corruption. Of course there is no firm evidence either way.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    fivebells if a poor good looking gal marries a dumpy looking man with a good job is that then equally corrupt?

    I am arguing that you need more substance than circumstances. Irregardless of if you are agnostic or a practicing Tibetan buddhist; both should be interested in integrity of having a firm basis for our determination of institutional corruption.

    You don't got any dirt, sorry.
  • NOTaGangstaNOTaGangsta
    Doesn't Tulku mean "Living Buddha"? Steven Seagall seems like a swell guy on his cop show though.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    A tulku is not a buddha. Where did you hear that? I don't think one has to fit stereotypes to be associated with buddhism. The dharma is for actors and martial artists too. Thats the meaning of a bodhisattva. Seeing that all have a entrypoint to practice.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    fivebells if a poor good looking gal marries a dumpy looking man with a good job is that then equally corrupt?
    You'll need to expand on this analogy a bit. I'm not sure what your point is.
    Irregardless of if you are agnostic or a practicing Tibetan buddhist; both should be interested in integrity of having a firm basis for our determination of institutional corruption.
    What if you're both agnostic and a practicing Tibetan Buddhist like me? :)

    Segal is exhibit A, but there is plenty of historical evidence for purported Tulku lineages having more to do with preservation of political power than any kind of rebirth transmission. The lineages tended to be "kept in the family," so to speak, much more than you would expect by chance. Of course, if you firmly believe in the traditional Tibetan cosmology, this must be due to some tendency in that context for preference of rebirth within a genealogy. But there's no denying that it helped to preserve power within families, and that the motivation to preserve power is a plausible political explanation for the pattern. So to someone with a more agnostic viewpoint, it's a very clear case of politics corrupting a spiritual institution.
  • TakuanTakuan Veteran
    Ah thank you all for your responses. I look forward to learning more about this.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Fivebells,

    Maybe it is not by chance. The notion of a tulku is that they choose rebirth. :) Preserving power in families is circumstancial also. The analogy I made was not an analogy. It was an example of circumstancial evidence. The woman in the 'analogy' could possibly be a gold digger. But maybe not. What does it achieve for you or me to gossip about her and call her a gold digger? Similarly what does it achieve for your practice to gossip about tulkus without direct evidence of corruption?

    Please share any direct evidence of corruption. Is there testimony from someone who choose a tulku sharing that it is all a hoax?

    Another example of circumstancial evidence is that say Joe politican was killed. And has a lot of political enemies. Does that definitively mean that the killing was politically motivated? Couldn't it be a killing by a crazy person?

    You have not accounted for other possibilities than corruption. I can se why you could be suspicious, but you shouldn't act as if you know something or have proven something because you are only aware of suggestive circumstances.

    Another example is a coworker woman is sexually attractive and gets a raise. Can you conclude that she has slept with the boss? Perhaps she has also worked later hours when the boss also worked late hours. Is that constitue proof?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    By the way according to tibetan buddhism things don't happen by chance. That is what is called a construct. Conventional reality happens by cause and effect. That is appearance. Ultimate reality is seeing that all things are unborn; void and compassionate at the same time. The latter was extrapolated from a saying of Drom Tonpa:

    "The one thing to be attained is essentially void and compassionate. Let me explain.
    The realisation of voidness is the absolute spirit of enlightenment; it is seeing that all things are unborn.
    Compassion is the relative spirit of enlightenment; it is reaching out in love to all beings who have yet to realise that they are unborn.
    Those who follow the Mahayana path should develop these two forms of the spirit of enlightenment."

    You are pretending to read the minds of the people who choose the tulku.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    I have no direct evidence of corruption in the selection of tulkus, just as I have no direct evidence for corruption in the US response to the financial crisis. Adults can't insist on certainties when assessing human affairs, they have to assess what the most likely explanations are, and base their decisions on that. Gold digging happens, sleeping your way to the top happens, political assassinations happen, so in the hypothetical scenarios you outline, a sensible person would certainly assess the likelihood of those explanations. And when the official explanation concerns post-mortem mythology, I'm always going to give more weight to the more prosaic explanation, even if it is uncomfortable to do so.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    what does it achieve for your practice to gossip about tulkus without direct evidence of corruption?
    Jeffrey, I'd say that what it achieves to bring up the possibility of corruption or political interests is that someone can then make a mental note to file away in the back of their mind, in case information arises in the future that is pertinent. It means opening up the possibility to seeing things as they are (maybe) and clearing away naivete, which is often a good thing in life in general. It doesn't mean you believe something based on speculation (I wouldn't dismiss it as "gossip", exactly), it just means you may open a critical eye to the question. Or you may, upon thoughtful consideration and a bit of personal research, decide that the speculation in unfounded. It could go either way. Raising doubts can be constructive, but it's something each person has to evaluate for themselves. Like the Buddha said, test, examine, think.

  • NOTaGangstaNOTaGangsta
    A tulku is not a buddha. Where did you hear that? I don't think one has to fit stereotypes to be associated with buddhism. The dharma is for actors and martial artists too. Thats the meaning of a bodhisattva. Seeing that all have a entrypoint to practice.
    lol, I was actually being genuine when I praised Steven on his cop show! He does seem like someone who cares about the community and the troubled youth that he sees!

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