Frames of reference

Talisman

Body, Feelings, Mind, Mental Qualities

I'm having an easier time focusing on the breath in reference to the Body and Mind, but having a more difficult time with Feelings and Mental Qualities, I think primarily due to misunderstanding all the factors invovled.

Regarding Feelings, piti (rapture) and sukha (pleasure) are not well-defined. In the Jhanic studies I have read, these two factors are described as present in the 1st and 2nd Jhanas and difficult to attain without complete focus. Does this mean that focus on feelings cannot be attained until at least 1st Jhana has been reached? If this is so, then it changes my perception of things, as I have been under the assumption that Anapanasati is practiced in order to cultivate the focus necessary for acheiving Jhana. Or perhaps the definition of these terms is different when regarding the frame of reference?

Regarding Mental qualities, I am at a loss for concrete definitions of all 4 factors. The translation I have has them listed as Inconstancy, Dispassion, Cessation, and Relinquishment. When bringing to mind these qualities are they in reference to arisen mental stimuli or as the actual processes themselves? Like ... I focus on the breath understanding it as Inconstant, maintaining equinimity and Dispassion regarding its existence, mindful of the Cessation of this dispassion, leading to Relinquishment of the hindrances. Is that right?

Just looking for some tips. Thanks in advance for any insights.

Talisman

**edit in after the time limit**

"mindful of the Cessation of this dispassion"

meant to say "in light of dispassion there arises Cessation of the hindrances"

fivebells

It's possible I've misunderstood what you're asking about, but I think what you need to know is that these are maps of what you'll experience, not prescriptions of what you should try to experience. If you do the practice, the meaning of these things will clarify as your capacity to experience them develops. For instance what you've read about awareness of feelings being difficult to obtain at first probably reflects the fact that emotional content initially degrades attention and tends to undermine awareness. But as momentum builds in the practice, that degradation becomes less of a problem.

DhammaDhatu

Regarding Feelings, piti (rapture) and sukha (pleasure) are not well-defined. In the Jhanic studies I have read, these two factors are described as present in the 1st and 2nd Jhanas and difficult to attain without complete focus. Does this mean that focus on feelings cannot be attained until at least 1st Jhana has been reached? If this is so, then it changes my perception of things, as I have been under the assumption that Anapanasati is practiced in order to cultivate the focus necessary for acheiving Jhana.

hello Talisman

anapanasati can be practised on either of two levels of concentration

the first level is called neighbourhood or access concentration

the second level is called attainment concentration or jhana

both levels of concentration have a sufficient degree of calmness, bodily purification & focus to give rise to a sufficient degree of piti and sukha that can serve as well-defined objects of meditation

regarding anapanasati, on the level of attainment concentration, the jhanas begin at stage 5 and end at stage 12

although the buddha did not explain jhana as anapansati, probably because he wished anapansati to also describe the neighbourhood concentration fruition, stage 5 of anapanasati would equate to the 1st & 2nd jhanas, stages 6 to the 3rd jhana and stage 12 to the 4th jhana

kind regards

DhammaDhatu

Regarding Mental qualities, I am at a loss for concrete definitions of all 4 factors.

hello Talisman

'mental qualities' is an improper translation here

the last group/tetrad of anapanasati is called 'dhammanupassana'

'dhamma' here means 'truth'

what is experienced here is the truth of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not-self, emptiness, etc

at this stage, because the mind is so clear, it will see the ultimate reality of every object of experience

The translation I have has them listed as Inconstancy, Dispassion, Cessation and Relinquishment. When bringing to mind these qualities, are they in reference to arisen mental stimuli or as the actual processes themselves?

at this stage, as I previously said, because the mind is so clear, it sees the inconstancy (impermanence) of every mental stimuli it experiences, whether that stimuli be the breathing, a feeling, a perception, a thought, a sight, a sound, a smell, etc, or consciousness itself

when inconstancy is seen very clearly, the mind will naturally have dispassion or a loss of attraction & craving towards those impermanent objects

due to dispassion or the end of craving, the cessation of suffering (nirodha/nibbana) will be experienced. the four noble truths will be fully realised

at the same time, due to seeing the impermanence of objects very clearly, the mind will relinquish all claims towards mental stimuli as being "I", "me" and "mine"

the mind will relinquish any sense of ownership

Like ... I focus on the breath understanding it as Inconstant, maintaining equinimity and Dispassion regarding its existence, mindful of the Cessation of this dispassion, leading to Relinquishment of the hindrances. Is that right?

no, not exactly

however, as you have inferred, the insight/vipassana/dhammanupassana described in the fourth group can occur at any stage of anapanasati in relation to any object

the fourth group is called dhammanupassana because the experience of impermanance is so clear, the mind primarly experiences impermanence rather than 'objects', such as the breathing, that are impermanent. the mind no longer sees 'objects'. the mind only sees change

we can compare 'objects' to a movie played at normal speed and 'primarily seeing impermanence' to a movie played at high speed. in the high speed movie, we can mostly see change or flux rather than the subjects in the movie

**********************************************************************

so, returning to your meditation, you/your mind focuses on the breathing understanding & seeing directly it is inconstant

if you see clearly enough the breathing is an impermanent thing, then you will understand you cannot grasp at, possess it or hold onto it

if your mind is clear enough to see like this, craving will end towards the breathing or towards particularly kinds of breathing. this end of craving is dispassion

if your mind is clear enough, it will see this cessation of craving is the cessation of suffering

it follows, the mind will relinquish the breathing and experience the freedom of relinquishment

the hindrances

as for the hindrances, they do not form part of anapanasati

if one is intent on practising anapanasati then the satipatthana sutta (which includes the hindrances is the fourth satipatthana) should be ignored

all the best

DD

Talisman

thanks a lot for insight DD, it makes sense

Sabre

as for the hindrances, they do not form part of anapanasati

if one is intent on practising anapanasati then the satipatthana sutta (which includes the hindrances is the fourth satipatthana) should be ignored

all the best

DD

Overall you give a solid advice, but this part of your post I think is not a good advice.

The hindrances are a part of anapanasati. If they weren't there, it would be a one second step of focusing on the calm and silent mind, leaving the sounds, body, and all senses, leaving the breath and go into (neighboring) absorption. But as we all know this is just not possible because the mind has to calm down.

If you have hindrances, the mind will be unstable and easily go away from the breath or into thoughts, which interferes with the process of calming and focusing. One should get to know the five hindrances and learn how to overcome them gradually. This is the main practice of mindfulness of the breath and this is why the more you practice the better you get at it.

Talisman, meditation takes many years to learn. So I'd also agree with fivebells, it is just a description of what to expect. So do not focus on them too much because that won't really get you anywhere.

With metta,
Sabre

Talisman

So far, study an focus on the factors described by the Anapanasati Sutta have helped greatly in my meditation practice. I do agree that mindfulness of the hindrances is an important factor, perhaps more relevant in regard to analysis of Dharmas as a factor of awakening at a later stage of development.

However, it is stated that the 1st Jhana is attained after overcoming the first 3 hndrances, and the 3rd Jhana after overcoming the last 2, so it's a little ambiguous.

Sabre

You can think about it very much, but absorption is indescribable with words so it's not very much use thinking about it Just keep practicing and one day you might achieve it.

Also I wouldn't set it as a goal and think you can not do anything without them. This is what for example Ajahn Brahm seems to teach but personally I don't really agree with that.

There are even teachers who say they are totally unimportant. Thich Nhat Hanh for example says this. I think it just depends on how your mind works. Some might need A, others might need B.

Just enjoy your meditation, that is important.

Don't focus on things you need to achieve. This is craving.

Sabre

By the way; disclaimer. This is just advice from someone who is not a skilled monk and just a lay practitioner like you. Always keep that in mind when reading on forums, people may be wrong about things. Especially when it comes down to meditation, an art that takes a (or multiple?) lifetime to learn. But I've got some experience so I think (& hope ) I kind of know what I'm talking about . I hope shedding light on this topic from my experience can help you a bit. But I always suggest consulting teachers. Real life contact also is important to get a message across.

But who can ever know what's true but you?
Of course some monks also can be wrong :P

With metta,
Sabre

DhammaDhatu

Overall you give a solid advice....but this part of your post I think is not a good advice

Are you certain you have the experience to give such an opinion?

The totally of my advice is good advice.

The hindrances are a part of anapanasati. If they weren't there, it would be a one second step of focusing on the calm and silent mind, leaving the sounds, body, and all senses, leaving the breath and go into (neighboring) absorption.

The hindrances are not mentioned in the sixteen stages of anapanasati because anapanasati only begins when mindfulness is set to the fore.

If the mind still has hindrances then the mind cannot be said to have mindfulness.

There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

The Buddha has said unambiguously here, where there are hindrances, there is no mindfulness with breathing.

But as we all know this is just not possible because the mind has to calm down.

I have suggested to you before to not poject your practise upon others.

The skilled meditator has no hindrances to calm down.

:eek2:

Sabre

edit: nevermind.

DhammaDhatu

The hindrances are a part of anapanasati. If they weren't there, it would be a one second step of focusing on the calm and silent mind, leaving the sounds, body, and all senses, leaving the breath and go into (neighboring) absorption. But as we all know this is just not possible because the mind has to calm down.

Sabre

You are confusing the five hindrances with the residual stress in the body. The five hindrances are obstacles of sensual desire, ill-will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & remorse and doubt. One can practise from the start without any obstacles.

However, your response was a misunderstanding of my post. My post referred the five hindrances being included in the fourth satipatthana.

If your mind was free from hindrances, it would have discerned that.

:eek2:

There are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt.

When a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by the five hindrances, and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from the five hindrances that have arisen, then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, nor can he know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.055.wlsh.html

DhammaDhatu

You can think about it very much, but absorption is indescribable with words so it's not very much use thinking about it Just keep practicing and one day you might achieve it.

The question was asked: "Does this mean that focus on feelings cannot be attained until at least 1st Jhana has been reached?"

Yet you start giving a pep talk, as though you are a guru.

In Buddhism, such discursive mind is called papanca or monkey chatter.

DhammaDhatu

Especially when it comes down to meditation, an art that takes a (or multiple?) lifetime to learn. But I've got some experience so I think (& hope ) I kind of know what I'm talking about

But who can ever know what's true but you?
Of course some monks also can be wrong

I can only suggest the above advice be ignored.

"Multiple lives" is mere speculative discursive hindered thought; a major obstable to practise; an inherent attitude of "defeat".

The "experience" being referred to here is just one single individuals personal experience.

Worse, Sabre is asserting they know what they are talking about where some monks do not.

Please never let words like this drag one down to the other's level, where these individuals that have made no progress wish to imprison others in their prison.

Meditation progress will depend on an individual's life's experiences and then their application to meditation.

There is no general rule. The assertion "I kind of know what I'm talking about" has no basis in reality.

DhammaDhatu

However, it is stated that the 1st Jhana is attained after overcoming the first 3 hndrances, and the 3rd Jhana after overcoming the last 2, so it's a little ambiguous.

Talisman

When the 1st Jhana is attained, all five hindrances have been overcome

Regards

Talisman

Yea, I did some more reading after making that statement and retract it. I do feel that the hindrances need to be overcome during "access concentration" which cultivates the necessary focus for attaining the 1st jhana. I have a lot of practice ahead of me but I'm only 24.

btw I do believe in rebirth but my understanding of the way that this life's karma creates and conditions another is nearly impossible for me to put into words at this time and currently has no bearing on my meditation practice in the here and now. thanks for the responses

DhammaDhatu

I do feel that the hindrances need to be overcome during "access concentration" which cultivates the necessary focus for attaining the 1st jhana. I have a lot of practice ahead of me but I'm only 24.

Talisman

The hindrances need to be overcome to attain "access concentration".

As long as the hindrances are there, "access concentration" has not been developed.

Attaining the 1st jhana is not necessary. You really need to let go of any desire to attain the 1st jhana.

A stream enterer, which is an enlightened being, has not attained the 1st jhana.

To believe in rebirth is to block the mind's perception of impermanence & the need to relinquish "ownership" of the five aggregates.

It is not helpful for meditation but to believe in rebirth is your choice.

All the best

DhammaDhatu

Also, in reality & in Buddhism, there are three levels of concentration:

(1) momentary or prepatory concentration

(2) access/neighbourhood concentration

(3) attainment/jhana concentration

When we do battle with the hindrances, this is not yet access concentration.

I quoted the Buddha from the Anapanasati Sutta, where he said: "I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness"

All the best

Jeffrey

If I have a very amazing meditation experience that is so startling compared to others how would I know it was jhana? I was totally calm and everything was just happening as if I would smile and laugh. Then I meditation I had pleasure in my body particularly in my head. It felt terrific. But I did have a desire to keep that pleasure which was a little irritating. I then let myself be more open in the sense of tuning into my experience in the room but I felt well just not sort of having a whiteness to senses.

Don't want to derail but I think Talisman is also interested in how to note Jhana. The question is how to recognize Jhana and not attribute a dramatic experience as jhana due to it being a change and wondrous.

Talisman

Belief in rebirth does not necessitate a belief in an abiding and impermanent self. The topic at hand is regarding the frames of reference and I thank you for your input. I will continue my studies with it in mind.

DhammaDhatu

The hindrances are a part of anapanasati. If they weren't there, it would be a one second step of focusing on the calm and silent mind, leaving the sounds, body, and all senses, leaving the breath and go into (neighboring) absorption.

What is this "(neighboring) absorption" being referred to?

However, below is a text stating the hindrances are "driven out" before jhana.

DhammaDhatu

If I have a very amazing meditation experience that is so startling compared to others how would I know it was jhana? I was totally calm and everything was just happening as if I would smile and laugh. Then I meditation I had pleasure in my body particularly in my head. It felt terrific.

The question is how to recognize Jhana and not attribute a dramatic experience as jhana due to it being a change and wondrous.

The words listed below indicate the experience is not jhana.

Jhana is the fruition of non-attachment or non-clinging.

The following words simply show one has been taking to heart the "dhamma advertising" given by certain gurus looking to attract followers:

"I"

"amazing"

"startling"

"compared"

"I was"

"smile and laugh"

"pleasure in my body"

"felt terrific"

"wonderous"

:coffee:

Talisman

Beginning to think I'm in over my head with the Jhanic studies. Seems more of an endeavor for monastics. I do feel that anapanasati can still be beneficial to my practice at this time, however. Study of the sutra and related commentaries has helped with my concentration and daily practice quite a bit.

When I get a chance to take retreat I'm sure it will be much easier to put some real time into this kind of material. It's still good to study. Even if I can't make use of it at this time, I'm planting seeds for future fruition.

Jeffrey

Thanks for the contribution DD, I was of course wondering what you might say.

DhammaDhatu

Jeffrey

"Belief in rebirth does not necessitate a belief in an abiding and impermanent self. The topic at hand is regarding the frames of reference and I thank you for your input. I will continue my studies with it in mind."

I agree. If you say rebirth is not possible due to anatta you would also have to conclude that our current lifespan is not possible which is nihilism.

DhammaDhatu

Your point is moot. The Buddha did not regard nihilism as you do.

No need for me to quote to support my point.

The word nihilism is found only a few times in the whole of the scriptures and, as I said, does not carry the meaning you are inferring.

When your mind finds genuine peace, it will agree with me.

Best to work on your practise. I trust your faith in the Buddha-Dhamma will bring your mind progess.

Abide in the path, free from doubt, let the "old" rise up & fade/dissolve away, and cultivate that which is new and fresh.

Nibbana is peace. In the peace of Nibbana, there is no yesterday & no tommorrow.

All thoughts of rebirth arise from fear & doubt. Let us free our minds from fear and abide in unwavering peace.

Be well

Jeffrey

Regardless of how you regard nihilism you would have to conclude that this life does not exist due to anatta if you applied that theory to rebirth not existing.

Jeffrey

The fact that this world appears is emptiness is form. And it is compassion. If you do not have compassion you do not have wisdom.

The fact that this world is empty of anything ceasing or abiding or created, that is form is emptiness and is wisdom.

DhammaDhatu

Best to meditate

Too much meaningless theory there, for sure

Let it go

Jeffrey

Must contemplate.

DhammaDhatu

Just breathe, in & out. Be at ease. Smile with bright mind & heart of friendship

Jeffrey

contemplation is one of the 3 learnings. Nice instructions

buddhajunkie

if one is intent on practising anapanasati then the satipatthana sutta (which includes the hindrances is the fourth satipatthana) should be ignored

For what purpose would one study/apply the Satipatthana Sutta and not the Anapanasati Sutta?

nibbuti

For what purpose would one study/apply the Satipatthana Sutta and not the Anapanasati Sutta?

When the mind is still coarse or dull, and easily inclined to coarseness and dullness. It is then unable to go beyond watching the gross bodily formation or simple labeling. That is when the Satipatthan Sutta can be applied IMHO.

buddhajunkie

When the mind is still coarse or dull, and easily inclined to coarseness and dullness. It is then unable to go beyond watching the gross bodily formation or simple labeling. That is when the Satipatthan Sutta can be applied IMHO.

Do you think this describes the majority of casual meditators? The people who, say, haven't been on a multi-day retreat, who don't meditate daily, and limit their sessions to like 20 minutes when they do?

And for these people of coarse mind, whoever they are, is Anapanasati not applicable to them as long as their practice is sporadic and short?

nibbuti

And for these people of coarse mind, whoever they are, is Anapanasati not applicable to them as long as their practice is sporadic and short?

Sure, it is applicable. That's why a part of Anapanasati is in the Satipatthana Sutta. However, only up to the bodily formation. When mind is still coarse it is best to observe the body function rather than mind. The body function is more constant.